I have, and treasure, a .pdf version of your six chapter, 36 page book, The Deutschmann Family. You aver that it is not complete, but it has to be priceless just as it is. I've not seen many narratives and family trees, and the few I have reviewed while thoroughly compiled are nowhere near as elegant as your accounting. Your talents as an author shine brilliantly in your family tree record. That is one reason why it is easy to read and enjoyable even to an outsider as myself. I can't relate to your family personally, but your history of your family's influence in this part of Missouri is educational and entertaining. Reading the above and reading the book makes me wonder how you were able to compose such a story. There are a million details and facts that could not possibly be derived from public records. It amazes me to no end that you were able to gather so much detail about a distant past.
The problem I have now is how to merge your amendment with the original unfinished book. I don't want to lose the continuity and I am certain I will not be able to find this post a few months from now. I'm not sure how I will do it, but I do want to keep all that book material in one place. I know much of what you just related is already documented, but far be it from me to put it in its proper place. LOL In any case, I thank you sincerely for sharing all this great history of your family.
And, by the way, you can edit anything you posted by clicking on that exclamation point [!] icon next to your photograph. You can even delete posts if nobody has replied to them yet.
Excess Deaths
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Re: Excess Deaths
My aunt Mary was the family genealogist, and when she got up in years, she asked me to help her organize it. Then a few years later, after I got a computer, I started typing all of her notes out. Before she passed away, she gave me some of her boxes of paperwork she collected over the years, but then not before my aunt Muff got into them and kept most of what I organized for herself. Now that she passed away, all of those boxes of paperwork she took got dumped in a dumpster.
As noted in my story, some additional notes were recovered from other family members, and some of those took us all they way back to the Holy Roman Empire. One of those notebooks was rewritten from a Diary which was kept by an ancestor, but was barely legible, thus the reason for important points being extracted from it and put into a notebook. To me, it was an amazing and lucky find to talk the person who had those notes, so I could see them for myself.
Since most of my ancestors were Catholic and active in their churches, obtaining some records about them was fairly easy. Took a lot of letters and postage to do so, plus a lot of time. But when you have them as members of the church, and holding things like baptisms there for the kids, you know they lived in that area for a time.
My next book started with my parents and I, but I never got back to bragging about myself and my siblings, hi hi.
I have a cousin who came up with a few old Beta-Max tapes, and he took them to a studio to be copied onto Video CDs. The sad thing is, most of those CDs he had made have gone bad, rotted as they say. The last I heard from him, he was looking for a studio who could still play the Beta-Max and copy them to Digital Format on something that would hold up and that he could copy to newer media as time rolls on. But I've not heard back from him now in well over 5 years.
Even my own son is not interested in the many photographs I have of our older family members, most were long dead before he was born, and a few were dead before I was born. But dad marked up the images so I knew who each person was to catalog them in my files properly. And places my mom and dad went went they were young, a few before they were married.
I guess that is what will happen about the things about me, in 20 more years, no one will be interested in what I did or where I've been, or what things I may have owned, or what jobs I did over the years. Oh well, such is life, and the end of it.
As noted in my story, some additional notes were recovered from other family members, and some of those took us all they way back to the Holy Roman Empire. One of those notebooks was rewritten from a Diary which was kept by an ancestor, but was barely legible, thus the reason for important points being extracted from it and put into a notebook. To me, it was an amazing and lucky find to talk the person who had those notes, so I could see them for myself.
Since most of my ancestors were Catholic and active in their churches, obtaining some records about them was fairly easy. Took a lot of letters and postage to do so, plus a lot of time. But when you have them as members of the church, and holding things like baptisms there for the kids, you know they lived in that area for a time.
My next book started with my parents and I, but I never got back to bragging about myself and my siblings, hi hi.
I have a cousin who came up with a few old Beta-Max tapes, and he took them to a studio to be copied onto Video CDs. The sad thing is, most of those CDs he had made have gone bad, rotted as they say. The last I heard from him, he was looking for a studio who could still play the Beta-Max and copy them to Digital Format on something that would hold up and that he could copy to newer media as time rolls on. But I've not heard back from him now in well over 5 years.
Even my own son is not interested in the many photographs I have of our older family members, most were long dead before he was born, and a few were dead before I was born. But dad marked up the images so I knew who each person was to catalog them in my files properly. And places my mom and dad went went they were young, a few before they were married.
I guess that is what will happen about the things about me, in 20 more years, no one will be interested in what I did or where I've been, or what things I may have owned, or what jobs I did over the years. Oh well, such is life, and the end of it.
Re: Excess Deaths
I never knew much about genealogy, or my ancestors, until I met my wife to be. Her mom's family was big on their history and the records I've seen from that tree go back to 1600's in Switzerland, or what4efer it was called at that time. Somebody in my wife's family did what your aunt did and passed it on to whoever is the historian these days. One of the most amazing things I've seen was her family tree on a huge poster. It' was the kind of paper I've seen come off rolls the paper mills make. LOL That was about fifty years ago and no doubt much has been added to what I saw. When I was searching around Ancestry.com I ran into what that "somebody" genealogist uploaded. It's nearly as amazing to see in digital form as it was on paper.
My mom's family knew a few of the relatives back in Poland. I think one of the aunts still communicated with them until she died. But that's it as far as history in my mom's family. My dad's family ... I don't think anybody there can even spell genealogy. Nuff said about them.
It's not surprising that some families are more interested in their heritage than are others. You allude to the question I've always asked myself when I pondered my family's past. Does it really matter to know all about them? And to document it all may have even less pertinent. So, why bother? To answer that I'd have to go back to the philosophy of life we have talked about more than a few times. In the final analysis, however, a genealogical record is of value only on a personal level. It would be truly a statistical oddity to find another person in your family to be as interested in or satisfied by knowing all that you have done. Thus, the answer to why it matters, is simple. It makes you feel comfortable. If someone else benefits too, then that's a bonus. But, as you aptly point out, we aren't going to be around when some relative in the future discovers the pleasure in knowing the family history. You know it, and you recorded it. That is truly all that matters.
My mom's family knew a few of the relatives back in Poland. I think one of the aunts still communicated with them until she died. But that's it as far as history in my mom's family. My dad's family ... I don't think anybody there can even spell genealogy. Nuff said about them.
It's not surprising that some families are more interested in their heritage than are others. You allude to the question I've always asked myself when I pondered my family's past. Does it really matter to know all about them? And to document it all may have even less pertinent. So, why bother? To answer that I'd have to go back to the philosophy of life we have talked about more than a few times. In the final analysis, however, a genealogical record is of value only on a personal level. It would be truly a statistical oddity to find another person in your family to be as interested in or satisfied by knowing all that you have done. Thus, the answer to why it matters, is simple. It makes you feel comfortable. If someone else benefits too, then that's a bonus. But, as you aptly point out, we aren't going to be around when some relative in the future discovers the pleasure in knowing the family history. You know it, and you recorded it. That is truly all that matters.
Last edited by yogi on 21 Apr 2023, 18:51, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Excess Deaths
Many years ago, when I was using Family Tree Maker for DOS, and had a tractor drive printer.
It let you print out your family tree in long sections, usually starting with your own generation, then the pages above that and finally the pages below it. I used to have them tacked up in my hallway. But it wasn't long afterward that my tree was too big to fit the long hallway nor the height from floor to ceiling. Also FTM for Windows came along, and with it Ink Jet Printers, so you could only print on single pages, splice them together, and tape them up on the wall. A later version of FTM now called FTW could shrink the tree down, just small enough you could still read the names and dates, and it organized them a little better so they didn't take up so much room. And if you had a color printer, it would make you and your immediate ancestors in red, and all your children and their kids in blue. You could also pick a particular ancestor and print it such that all their kids and kids kids were in blue. Made it easy to spot how you fit in.
Most folks don't really care about their ancestors, other than the ones they knew who were living, but once they were gone, they didn't matter to them any more.
Now my dad, although not much of a genealogy buff, did have hundreds of pictures of his friends and relatives.
And when I said he organized them, he went way overboard in that aspect.
He organized his friends by schools, by the service, by personal friends, and on those he had their wives and children, and sometimes their parents and the persons siblings, especially if their was something they all did together, like his bowling team or were in his bands.
One would be surprised at just how many important people or celebrities are in their family, when you consider all the members of the family from an earlier ancestor. In my family, I know we have Will Rogers, and the maker of the Gatlin gun, plus the inventor of the baffle speaker. Others had some interesting jobs that touched parts of history, sorta like my drawing the drop-cute door for the Gemini XII space capsule, working on the Poplar Street Bridge project, and the Alton Lock n Dam project, plus many others. I've done a lot of different and interesting things in my life, but I know nobody gives a hoot, hi hi.
It let you print out your family tree in long sections, usually starting with your own generation, then the pages above that and finally the pages below it. I used to have them tacked up in my hallway. But it wasn't long afterward that my tree was too big to fit the long hallway nor the height from floor to ceiling. Also FTM for Windows came along, and with it Ink Jet Printers, so you could only print on single pages, splice them together, and tape them up on the wall. A later version of FTM now called FTW could shrink the tree down, just small enough you could still read the names and dates, and it organized them a little better so they didn't take up so much room. And if you had a color printer, it would make you and your immediate ancestors in red, and all your children and their kids in blue. You could also pick a particular ancestor and print it such that all their kids and kids kids were in blue. Made it easy to spot how you fit in.
Most folks don't really care about their ancestors, other than the ones they knew who were living, but once they were gone, they didn't matter to them any more.
Now my dad, although not much of a genealogy buff, did have hundreds of pictures of his friends and relatives.
And when I said he organized them, he went way overboard in that aspect.
He organized his friends by schools, by the service, by personal friends, and on those he had their wives and children, and sometimes their parents and the persons siblings, especially if their was something they all did together, like his bowling team or were in his bands.
One would be surprised at just how many important people or celebrities are in their family, when you consider all the members of the family from an earlier ancestor. In my family, I know we have Will Rogers, and the maker of the Gatlin gun, plus the inventor of the baffle speaker. Others had some interesting jobs that touched parts of history, sorta like my drawing the drop-cute door for the Gemini XII space capsule, working on the Poplar Street Bridge project, and the Alton Lock n Dam project, plus many others. I've done a lot of different and interesting things in my life, but I know nobody gives a hoot, hi hi.
Re: Excess Deaths
I beg to differ with your assertion that nobody gives a hoot about your accomplishments. Yours truly finds all that you are willing to share to be not only educational but also in some instances inspirational. I agree that once you and I are gone an interest in either one of us will be greatly diminished. Once our siblings and progeny have moved on you and I will not be remembered, recognized, nor recounted. We are not Will Rogers or R J Gatling, but we are part of the permanent record of history. In fact whatever we do creates history and affects the lives of those close to us. We won't get credit for our good or bad accomplishments, but the effect we have in determining destiny is eternal.
If it were possible I would love to have a family tree charted and hung on an entire wall of this computer room. That would be a 9' x 12' poster going back I don't know how many generations. I could then see exactly where I fit into the history of my family. The family tree would end with me, as far as I know. There is only one other male in dad's side of the family who could have progeny to carry on the family name. I lost track of him after he stood up to my wedding but have a suspicion he never married or had children. Thus, like me, he would be a dead end of the family name history. I guess technically the tree would go on forever, but the family name does not go on beyond me.
If it were possible I would love to have a family tree charted and hung on an entire wall of this computer room. That would be a 9' x 12' poster going back I don't know how many generations. I could then see exactly where I fit into the history of my family. The family tree would end with me, as far as I know. There is only one other male in dad's side of the family who could have progeny to carry on the family name. I lost track of him after he stood up to my wedding but have a suspicion he never married or had children. Thus, like me, he would be a dead end of the family name history. I guess technically the tree would go on forever, but the family name does not go on beyond me.
Re: Excess Deaths
Well, my name is forever chimed in some patents I held. And probably in a lot of real estate documents, hi hi.
An Immediate Family Tree is always a nice thing to draw up and hang on your wall.
I made a few many years ago, added photo's and made sure it all fit on a standard poster size paper.
When I finished the original, I took it to the Blue Print and Photo Copy Company to have a negative made to take to a Poster Printer. I also had to pay them to mount the posters on cardboard in a poster frame. Had to buy like 100 of them for them to even consider doing it, and it was not Lithograph which is what I really wanted, but couldn't afford. Even so, they looked great.
I truly expected I could sell them to family members for around 20 bucks each, but no such luck. I ended up giving one to each aunt or uncle's family, in hopes when the kids saw them, they would want one too, and I cut the price back to 10 bucks each, which was a dollar less than my original cost for them. Only sold like 15 of them. All the rest were stacked on a shelf in my basement, which as you know, went through two floods. I managed to rescue them after the first flood, but then the second flood got them. Including the four I set aside for myself and my kids.
Ironically, most of the space on that poster was taken up by my Uncle Clarence and his 14 kids, hi hi.
My grandpa on my mom's side had all girls, so his name died with him too.
But he had enough relatives out there that the surname lives on through the other siblings children.
Debi's dad only had two girls, but it doing genealogy work, I've hit thousands, and I mean that literally about her surname carried down from descendants.
In genealogy work, even after a girl is married and has a new surname. On the genealogy itself, it only shows her under her birth name.
In my own genealogy work, if I have no data on the husband, but know his surname because it is the name the wife took.
I often list it this way in my files. Mary Rose (+Abernathy) McDowell, where McDowell was her maiden name.
Once I get more data on her husband so I know his given name and place him in the tree, then I remove the (+Abernathy) from behind her given name.
An Immediate Family Tree is always a nice thing to draw up and hang on your wall.
I made a few many years ago, added photo's and made sure it all fit on a standard poster size paper.
When I finished the original, I took it to the Blue Print and Photo Copy Company to have a negative made to take to a Poster Printer. I also had to pay them to mount the posters on cardboard in a poster frame. Had to buy like 100 of them for them to even consider doing it, and it was not Lithograph which is what I really wanted, but couldn't afford. Even so, they looked great.
I truly expected I could sell them to family members for around 20 bucks each, but no such luck. I ended up giving one to each aunt or uncle's family, in hopes when the kids saw them, they would want one too, and I cut the price back to 10 bucks each, which was a dollar less than my original cost for them. Only sold like 15 of them. All the rest were stacked on a shelf in my basement, which as you know, went through two floods. I managed to rescue them after the first flood, but then the second flood got them. Including the four I set aside for myself and my kids.
Ironically, most of the space on that poster was taken up by my Uncle Clarence and his 14 kids, hi hi.
My grandpa on my mom's side had all girls, so his name died with him too.
But he had enough relatives out there that the surname lives on through the other siblings children.
Debi's dad only had two girls, but it doing genealogy work, I've hit thousands, and I mean that literally about her surname carried down from descendants.
In genealogy work, even after a girl is married and has a new surname. On the genealogy itself, it only shows her under her birth name.
In my own genealogy work, if I have no data on the husband, but know his surname because it is the name the wife took.
I often list it this way in my files. Mary Rose (+Abernathy) McDowell, where McDowell was her maiden name.
Once I get more data on her husband so I know his given name and place him in the tree, then I remove the (+Abernathy) from behind her given name.
Re: Excess Deaths
Women are a pain in the drain when it comes to genealogy because they can have so many name changes. They have a maiden name and then a married name. There may be a convention method to include both so that you can trace this lady's rank throughout the tree. However, some ladies divorce and remarry. Some more than once. They had children by different husbands and therein arises a gigantic problem identifying the children properly. In some trees step children are clearly noted but that doesn't tell you who the actual parents are. The problem seems to originate with the genealogist who may or may not include all the names of the mother and exactly who is the father of her children. When properly drawing up the tree all that information is there, but needs to be deciphered by a keen eye. Looking at any one individual, however, tells you nothing unless the genealogist included all the relevant facts in some way. I don't know enough about it to say there should be a conventional way of doing it. I have seen your method and that of a few other people. If there is a standard naming convention, not everyone is aware of it or simply not following it.
There was a time when family names were important mainly due to inheritance issues or royalty succession. As we noted a few times in these discussions inheritance sometimes becomes a money grab and family status and/or tradition means nothing. There are a few monarchs left on this planet but who cares about them? Well, they do, and their family, and they likely have an official genealogist to keep the records straight. Other than that the pride I once knew associated with a family's name is lost among 8 billion other people who seem not to have such an interest.
You went to a lot of trouble to have those family tree posters made. I had a poster made of a classic pose in which my wife and I were photographed. I found a company online that would make a poster for me. All I had to do was send him the original photo or a digital copy (which is what I did) and pick a size. They would do the rest. I opted out of the poster but had him make a giant size photograph instead. It was something like $40 all told. A few months ago I was in a UPS store and they offered the same service. All I had to do was feed my photo or my digital copy into their machine, which was in fact just a large plotter. Several minutes later I could have a poster or a picture on photo paper. It's not like lithography for sure, but it sure is impressive.
There was a time when family names were important mainly due to inheritance issues or royalty succession. As we noted a few times in these discussions inheritance sometimes becomes a money grab and family status and/or tradition means nothing. There are a few monarchs left on this planet but who cares about them? Well, they do, and their family, and they likely have an official genealogist to keep the records straight. Other than that the pride I once knew associated with a family's name is lost among 8 billion other people who seem not to have such an interest.
You went to a lot of trouble to have those family tree posters made. I had a poster made of a classic pose in which my wife and I were photographed. I found a company online that would make a poster for me. All I had to do was send him the original photo or a digital copy (which is what I did) and pick a size. They would do the rest. I opted out of the poster but had him make a giant size photograph instead. It was something like $40 all told. A few months ago I was in a UPS store and they offered the same service. All I had to do was feed my photo or my digital copy into their machine, which was in fact just a large plotter. Several minutes later I could have a poster or a picture on photo paper. It's not like lithography for sure, but it sure is impressive.
Re: Excess Deaths
On the females genealogy personal page, it will show each of her husbands, and the children by that husband are listed under that husbands name.
Where it really gets hairy is when the woman divorced the father of her child and remarried before the child was born.
This creates a two-edged sword as far as legal issues go. Because she was remarried at the time of the child's birth, the child is normally given the surname of the current husband. In some cases, the actual father is given visitation rights, and in some cases, must pay child support as well.
Also, sometimes the birth dates are so close to when she was divorced and remarried, and/or fooling around, it is not know who the real father is without a paternity test, and most of the time, the new husband doesn't want to know, since he will be the one raising the child.
Now, moving to the husbands side of the tree, it will show each wife he was married to, and the children of each wife, if HE sired the child will appear under that wife's name. Even if they are raising all of her children, only those he sired should be on his personal genealogy page. But in some cases, when they were raised from an early age, they will still appear on the husbands page as step-children.
I normally don't tell folks this, but back when I was a teen, we made a comedy shot of me at school, and the teacher who was involved with our doing those shots, submitted some to Mad Magazine, and the one of me was used by the magazine. At the time I was so totally embarrassed I didn't want anyone to see it. But then later on I acquired a copy of the magazine and put the picture up in my office, where it hung for around 20 years, and just high enough the floods didn't get it, but mildew did.
My mom knew about it, but chose not to tell my dad, and I don't think she ever told anyone else either.
I know the school got some money for using the photo, but none ever trickled down to me, hi hi.
Where it really gets hairy is when the woman divorced the father of her child and remarried before the child was born.
This creates a two-edged sword as far as legal issues go. Because she was remarried at the time of the child's birth, the child is normally given the surname of the current husband. In some cases, the actual father is given visitation rights, and in some cases, must pay child support as well.
Also, sometimes the birth dates are so close to when she was divorced and remarried, and/or fooling around, it is not know who the real father is without a paternity test, and most of the time, the new husband doesn't want to know, since he will be the one raising the child.
Now, moving to the husbands side of the tree, it will show each wife he was married to, and the children of each wife, if HE sired the child will appear under that wife's name. Even if they are raising all of her children, only those he sired should be on his personal genealogy page. But in some cases, when they were raised from an early age, they will still appear on the husbands page as step-children.
I normally don't tell folks this, but back when I was a teen, we made a comedy shot of me at school, and the teacher who was involved with our doing those shots, submitted some to Mad Magazine, and the one of me was used by the magazine. At the time I was so totally embarrassed I didn't want anyone to see it. But then later on I acquired a copy of the magazine and put the picture up in my office, where it hung for around 20 years, and just high enough the floods didn't get it, but mildew did.
My mom knew about it, but chose not to tell my dad, and I don't think she ever told anyone else either.
I know the school got some money for using the photo, but none ever trickled down to me, hi hi.
Re: Excess Deaths
Greetings, It is just fascinating that you've spent that much on researching tour family tree in such deep. Just begun checking about it every now and then, and the place I've done most of my searches is a free one that has references from several sources. Somehow I reached a tree a far relative has been working on and it shows data from the 1750's... So far nothing from abroad, but there are several branches that I need to explore to see if there's any data from before 1900.
Re: Excess Deaths
I have in fact noted the structure you describe regarding who owns which kids. It's more obvious on Ancestry than on Family Search which is due to the type of software each site uses. While the structure is built into the software the burden is on the genealogist to get it done right.
I think you ran into a problem when you were helping me with my tree wherein a cousin showed up that could not have her father identified. Her father and his father had the same first name and her mom married more than once to make matters even more difficult. This cousin had a name similar to a verifiable cousin, but to this day her entry is speculative because the father's identity is uncertain. And, by the way, she only has one mention in the records, not the three sources you use to ascertain authenticity
The issue is totally complicated by the fact that any one individual may go by several different names and in some cases it does not correlate with the certificate of birth. In the above case her middle name was unique, not mentioned in any of the other records of the cousin with a similar name.
I have another cousin Lois who arguably does not have a birth certificate because Lois is not the name her mom gave her when she was born. So, how does one show in Lois's personal file that she was born with one name but chose at a very early age to use another? In my case it's a note in her personal file that she is a.k.a. but in the tree itself she cannot be linked to the name on her birth certificate.
Juan, you will find genealogy to be a very challenging project if not very revealing. I learned a few things about my family that I never knew, such as Lois being born with a different name, and the detective work involved is quite challenging. My problem was that I didn't realize the sources were not always accurate. You would think something like a census report would have valid information, but that is not always the case. I'm sure you will enjoy pursuing your ancestor's history, but to get it right and proper isn't easy.
I think you ran into a problem when you were helping me with my tree wherein a cousin showed up that could not have her father identified. Her father and his father had the same first name and her mom married more than once to make matters even more difficult. This cousin had a name similar to a verifiable cousin, but to this day her entry is speculative because the father's identity is uncertain. And, by the way, she only has one mention in the records, not the three sources you use to ascertain authenticity
The issue is totally complicated by the fact that any one individual may go by several different names and in some cases it does not correlate with the certificate of birth. In the above case her middle name was unique, not mentioned in any of the other records of the cousin with a similar name.
I have another cousin Lois who arguably does not have a birth certificate because Lois is not the name her mom gave her when she was born. So, how does one show in Lois's personal file that she was born with one name but chose at a very early age to use another? In my case it's a note in her personal file that she is a.k.a. but in the tree itself she cannot be linked to the name on her birth certificate.
Juan, you will find genealogy to be a very challenging project if not very revealing. I learned a few things about my family that I never knew, such as Lois being born with a different name, and the detective work involved is quite challenging. My problem was that I didn't realize the sources were not always accurate. You would think something like a census report would have valid information, but that is not always the case. I'm sure you will enjoy pursuing your ancestor's history, but to get it right and proper isn't easy.
Re: Excess Deaths
In fact I'm tracking the info on Family Search, and have been checking the records to separate the inaccurate data from the real one... Point is that it has not all the records, or there are incomplete. I was glad I found my grandparents on the 1930 mexican census, that I found both my maternal grandmother (1929-1996) and my maternal great grandmother (1911-1990) were baptized at the same church near Downtown Mexico City... I'm pretty sure Mexican Revolution took it's toll to many prior records, so, the first challenge was to find the data form all my great grandparents, from there onwards it all tends to concentrate on church records, although civilian records began in the 1860's.
As a hobby, I'm aware it takes time, and depends on the availability of records, both civil, from church registries, and from refugee or intervention migrations... Also someone may have decided to start anew and changed name and/or Religion to hide form prosecution... I'm still open to possibilities given the ammount and extent of civil wars fought within Mexican soil.
On other theme, I've just added both of you on Twitter. I hang out there a lot recently, posting about technology, astronomy, transportation, Mexican Culture and history, replying to those that praise the Urbanism of Mexico City, and trying to convince people not to remain apathetic about current politics in Mexico.
As a hobby, I'm aware it takes time, and depends on the availability of records, both civil, from church registries, and from refugee or intervention migrations... Also someone may have decided to start anew and changed name and/or Religion to hide form prosecution... I'm still open to possibilities given the ammount and extent of civil wars fought within Mexican soil.
On other theme, I've just added both of you on Twitter. I hang out there a lot recently, posting about technology, astronomy, transportation, Mexican Culture and history, replying to those that praise the Urbanism of Mexico City, and trying to convince people not to remain apathetic about current politics in Mexico.
Re: Excess Deaths
Juan: I was encouraged by Gary to take an interest in my ancestry. There are many many ways to assemble the information and gather sources, but the two most useful to me were the CLS site, Family Search, and Ancestry.com. I like the way the CLS site software works because it reminds me of the databases I used to work with back when I had a job. The structure is very familiar, but to a person lacking SQL experience and database queries it could be an annoying learning curve. Also, the CLS site uses what is termed a World Tree to further the interests of the church itself. Many individuals also have a private tree that can only be modified by it's owner, or perhaps by invitation from the owner. The World Tree is prone to errors due to the wide variety of people who contribute to it.
Ancestry.com is oriented to the novice, such as myself. Their software is different and their sources of information are easier to come by. The down side is that Ancestry will ask for a fee to see much of their data because it is actually their transcription of public records. They want to be paid for their efforts. I ended up using a lot of the data from Ancestry in my CLS tree. Once the data was inserted then magically a lot of new hints started to show up. I think my CLS tree is more accurate but the Ancestry tree is more visually appealing.
I no longer am a big fan of Twitter and it seems to be headed in the same direction as Facebook turned. As you know I now have a low profile on Facebook due to the management policies there. Twitter was a valuable resource in that a wide mix of people with a diverse background contributed to the site. The new ownership has taken all that down and infested the content with his own personal preferences which honestly seem like a turn to the dark side where fascists, racists, QAnon, and extremist of all sorts lurk. All the mostly reliable sources that I followed left the site for that reason and thus the usefulness of Twitter had diminished greatly for me. Certain people believe what is going on there is an improvement, and I suppose it is if you agree with their mentality. As far as being useful goes, Twitter has now become the sister site of the Truth Social our former president owns and operates. Too extreme to be credible.
Ancestry.com is oriented to the novice, such as myself. Their software is different and their sources of information are easier to come by. The down side is that Ancestry will ask for a fee to see much of their data because it is actually their transcription of public records. They want to be paid for their efforts. I ended up using a lot of the data from Ancestry in my CLS tree. Once the data was inserted then magically a lot of new hints started to show up. I think my CLS tree is more accurate but the Ancestry tree is more visually appealing.
I no longer am a big fan of Twitter and it seems to be headed in the same direction as Facebook turned. As you know I now have a low profile on Facebook due to the management policies there. Twitter was a valuable resource in that a wide mix of people with a diverse background contributed to the site. The new ownership has taken all that down and infested the content with his own personal preferences which honestly seem like a turn to the dark side where fascists, racists, QAnon, and extremist of all sorts lurk. All the mostly reliable sources that I followed left the site for that reason and thus the usefulness of Twitter had diminished greatly for me. Certain people believe what is going on there is an improvement, and I suppose it is if you agree with their mentality. As far as being useful goes, Twitter has now become the sister site of the Truth Social our former president owns and operates. Too extreme to be credible.
Re: Excess Deaths
I ran across a new ancestor of my current wife that is dealing me tons of fits.
Records of the Birth show both parents names accurately.
Then comes the actual Death Certificate, and the date of Death is PRIOR to their Birth Date shown on the Certificate!
It's obvious some government worker was not paying attention.
Then comes the Census Records which we know are always just hit and miss as far as dates go.
But up pops the name of the child in the proper Census Record that aligns close enough in the range of when she was born.
A previous Census Record does not have her name, but shows both parents, and two of the older children accurately.
But no third kid in that 10-year Census Record. No kids shown in the Census Record the years prior either.
OK so what gives here.
I found the marriage license for the parents, and the two older children's birthdates are quite a while after the marriage.
I spent almost a week checking other records, and you cannot trust the Family Trees by others, a few of which have the same error, Death before Birth on this one kid.
Going by the locations they lived at the time of marriage, location of the first kid, location of the second kid, and where they were living for the fourth kid, which was all in the same County, but different cities within that County.
Newspapers.com is never any help, they have more errors than Carter's has pills.
But I did find a couple of on-line libraries that had local papers available for the period of time I was interested in.
I checked Birth Notices, Death Notices, Obits (which is not the same thing), and Burial records from yet another database.
It was the Birth Notices that gave me the first clue. I found a County Birth Notice for the name in question, which had a birth date 11 months earlier than the birth date associated with the person in question. And interestingly enough, this birth date was only 2 days before the Death Date we have on person number three.
I struck out checking for Baptismal records for that early date, and most of the churches have come and gone anyhow.
After all this research, I removed the death date from person number three, and added a fourth person, only with their names reversed, e.g. Lola Marie, and Marie Lola. so now Lola Marie had the new birth date I came across, along with the death date. And Marie Lola kept the birth date shown for her, which coincides with the Census Records and did not show a death date for new person number four here.
Not that I trust the School Yearbooks you find on-line, as so many folks have similar names and roughly the same birth years, I did run across a school yearbook that had like 6 kids all with the same surname, and decided to research each one of those separately to see what I could come up with for them. Some were cousins, but three lined up with the first three kids and approximate ages. This gave me an about date for the birth of Louanna, and yet another name to research. It took a while of researching that name and I finally got a solid birth date which matched the birth date I had for Marie Lola, which I decided to change to Louanna. Finally everything fell into place. I found a Death Certificate for Louanna, and also a Find a Grave location for her.
Census Records were now beginning to come into play here. The reason she was not listed on her parents Census was because she was living with her grandparents on her mothers side from around age 4 or 5. Other records verified who her parents were, and finally, after much work, I had the family together now as it should be. And of course, once I had it all corrected, then Ancestry pops-up with the data I already have, but it did give me more sources for verification.
Genealogy is a crazy mixed up world. Especially when parents rename a child the same as a child who died.
In this case, the Census Records also showed #3 as Lala Mari, Lou Mary, and Lola Marie. But not once did a Louanna show up on those records, at least not until after the fact on her grandparents census records.
Records of the Birth show both parents names accurately.
Then comes the actual Death Certificate, and the date of Death is PRIOR to their Birth Date shown on the Certificate!
It's obvious some government worker was not paying attention.
Then comes the Census Records which we know are always just hit and miss as far as dates go.
But up pops the name of the child in the proper Census Record that aligns close enough in the range of when she was born.
A previous Census Record does not have her name, but shows both parents, and two of the older children accurately.
But no third kid in that 10-year Census Record. No kids shown in the Census Record the years prior either.
OK so what gives here.
I found the marriage license for the parents, and the two older children's birthdates are quite a while after the marriage.
I spent almost a week checking other records, and you cannot trust the Family Trees by others, a few of which have the same error, Death before Birth on this one kid.
Going by the locations they lived at the time of marriage, location of the first kid, location of the second kid, and where they were living for the fourth kid, which was all in the same County, but different cities within that County.
Newspapers.com is never any help, they have more errors than Carter's has pills.
But I did find a couple of on-line libraries that had local papers available for the period of time I was interested in.
I checked Birth Notices, Death Notices, Obits (which is not the same thing), and Burial records from yet another database.
It was the Birth Notices that gave me the first clue. I found a County Birth Notice for the name in question, which had a birth date 11 months earlier than the birth date associated with the person in question. And interestingly enough, this birth date was only 2 days before the Death Date we have on person number three.
I struck out checking for Baptismal records for that early date, and most of the churches have come and gone anyhow.
After all this research, I removed the death date from person number three, and added a fourth person, only with their names reversed, e.g. Lola Marie, and Marie Lola. so now Lola Marie had the new birth date I came across, along with the death date. And Marie Lola kept the birth date shown for her, which coincides with the Census Records and did not show a death date for new person number four here.
Not that I trust the School Yearbooks you find on-line, as so many folks have similar names and roughly the same birth years, I did run across a school yearbook that had like 6 kids all with the same surname, and decided to research each one of those separately to see what I could come up with for them. Some were cousins, but three lined up with the first three kids and approximate ages. This gave me an about date for the birth of Louanna, and yet another name to research. It took a while of researching that name and I finally got a solid birth date which matched the birth date I had for Marie Lola, which I decided to change to Louanna. Finally everything fell into place. I found a Death Certificate for Louanna, and also a Find a Grave location for her.
Census Records were now beginning to come into play here. The reason she was not listed on her parents Census was because she was living with her grandparents on her mothers side from around age 4 or 5. Other records verified who her parents were, and finally, after much work, I had the family together now as it should be. And of course, once I had it all corrected, then Ancestry pops-up with the data I already have, but it did give me more sources for verification.
Genealogy is a crazy mixed up world. Especially when parents rename a child the same as a child who died.
In this case, the Census Records also showed #3 as Lala Mari, Lou Mary, and Lola Marie. But not once did a Louanna show up on those records, at least not until after the fact on her grandparents census records.
Re: Excess Deaths
Given that I have some experience trying to construct a family tree, I can appreciate the confusion you describe above. Just about each twig of the tree has a puzzle of the nature you describe. You have a lot of resource material available because you subscribe to them, and you also have a lot of experience regarding how to use and understand those resources.
I found the census reports to be the most useful but only after I came to the realization that they need to be interpreted within context. People show up or are missing in the household members list due to normal but difficult to guess logical reasons. One cousin of mine was traceable from 1910 to the 1950 census and each one had a different number of people listed in the report. Only one or two names were consistent over the years. This cousin was taking in immigrants from Europe who were trying to establish themselves in this country. She rented out two rooms of her home all the time that she lived there.
Most often there is a note about the relationship each person has to the head of the household. Sometimes that relationship is misleading or missing, and many times it's not easy to determine who is the head of the household. LOL The trick in all this is to update the tree with the best guess from the census reports and then wait for the website to provide hints for the new entry. In the case of Ancestry.com they more often than not want you to pay for viewing the hints, at which point I go over to Family Search and view for free much of what Ancestry is hiding behind a paywall. Both sites suffer from transcription errors which is why it's a good idea to view the original record if it is available. It's a comedy of errors in many cases and I don't understand how people ever figured it all out before computers and databases.
I found the census reports to be the most useful but only after I came to the realization that they need to be interpreted within context. People show up or are missing in the household members list due to normal but difficult to guess logical reasons. One cousin of mine was traceable from 1910 to the 1950 census and each one had a different number of people listed in the report. Only one or two names were consistent over the years. This cousin was taking in immigrants from Europe who were trying to establish themselves in this country. She rented out two rooms of her home all the time that she lived there.
Most often there is a note about the relationship each person has to the head of the household. Sometimes that relationship is misleading or missing, and many times it's not easy to determine who is the head of the household. LOL The trick in all this is to update the tree with the best guess from the census reports and then wait for the website to provide hints for the new entry. In the case of Ancestry.com they more often than not want you to pay for viewing the hints, at which point I go over to Family Search and view for free much of what Ancestry is hiding behind a paywall. Both sites suffer from transcription errors which is why it's a good idea to view the original record if it is available. It's a comedy of errors in many cases and I don't understand how people ever figured it all out before computers and databases.
Re: Excess Deaths
I do have a lot of years under my belt at doing genealogy work, most of it from before the computer age too.
If a child is away at college, they appear in Census Reports with all those living in the Dorm at the time of the Census.
Although the Census is normally taken every ten years, sometimes only five years. It is not unusual for a child to be living elsewhere at the exact time of the Census. Like I and my cousin got an apartment together to be closer to work, and we happen to be living there at the time the Census was taken. This is why my parents did not show me in the Census for that year, which of course was a ten year Census. They only want to know who is where on the day of the Census Takers making their rounds. You might also not that the Census only gives About Birth Dates. This is because the person giving the information to the Census Taker may not know the exact birthdays, especially if they come at a time when the parents are at work, and only one of the teenagers happens to be home that day. But now with them usually done via mail on paper, the parents are usually who fills them out.
The relationship shown on Census Reports is supposed to be how they are related to the Head of Household, which a lot of times, the Head of the Household is Grandpa, and his Grandson or Grandaughter is living there with their wife or husband.
So always check to see who is Head of Household on the Census record, which is normally the first name in the list.
I'll bet the Census taken in the 1980's really blew the mind of those who collected our mailed in paperwork. On the exact day we filled out the report to send in. Living with us was My Wife and I, my two kids (surname Deutschmann), her two kids (my step-children, who's surname was Silberstein), and two of my Foster kids (who's surname was Andrews). And again, when the Census was taken around 2000, Debi's mom was here (who's Surname was Paul) and again in 2010, Debi's son was staying here, (who's surname was Sams).
I use Family Search, aka the LDS website, to get copies of the original records to view. At one time I used to download them and store them, but I quit doing that. I figured no need since those websites will always be there.
It was through the LDS while I was a volunteer in their Family History Center, that I discovered the reason transcripted records had our name a Teutschmann. Some folks did some research to find out why, after a certain date, nobody with the last name starting with a D, F, & P, who's records were transcribed, appeared in the listings. Turned out, when the recorder who always wrote with a superflurished script retired, and a new person took over, they filed anyone who's name had a D, F, or P, that he had filled out the paperwork for, they placed under the letter T in the new files. So then when the transcription to digital form took place, the folks during that period of time who were chunked the new file, were all considered to be the letter T.
Now if the family had an event that was recorded, prior to the time of the fancy script writer, their name appeared with the proper letter, and that is how they finally figured out what happened. Unfortunately, I find records that still show them as Teutschmann from time to time. I've seen the originals, and it is easy to see how they made that mistake.
If a child is away at college, they appear in Census Reports with all those living in the Dorm at the time of the Census.
Although the Census is normally taken every ten years, sometimes only five years. It is not unusual for a child to be living elsewhere at the exact time of the Census. Like I and my cousin got an apartment together to be closer to work, and we happen to be living there at the time the Census was taken. This is why my parents did not show me in the Census for that year, which of course was a ten year Census. They only want to know who is where on the day of the Census Takers making their rounds. You might also not that the Census only gives About Birth Dates. This is because the person giving the information to the Census Taker may not know the exact birthdays, especially if they come at a time when the parents are at work, and only one of the teenagers happens to be home that day. But now with them usually done via mail on paper, the parents are usually who fills them out.
The relationship shown on Census Reports is supposed to be how they are related to the Head of Household, which a lot of times, the Head of the Household is Grandpa, and his Grandson or Grandaughter is living there with their wife or husband.
So always check to see who is Head of Household on the Census record, which is normally the first name in the list.
I'll bet the Census taken in the 1980's really blew the mind of those who collected our mailed in paperwork. On the exact day we filled out the report to send in. Living with us was My Wife and I, my two kids (surname Deutschmann), her two kids (my step-children, who's surname was Silberstein), and two of my Foster kids (who's surname was Andrews). And again, when the Census was taken around 2000, Debi's mom was here (who's Surname was Paul) and again in 2010, Debi's son was staying here, (who's surname was Sams).
I use Family Search, aka the LDS website, to get copies of the original records to view. At one time I used to download them and store them, but I quit doing that. I figured no need since those websites will always be there.
It was through the LDS while I was a volunteer in their Family History Center, that I discovered the reason transcripted records had our name a Teutschmann. Some folks did some research to find out why, after a certain date, nobody with the last name starting with a D, F, & P, who's records were transcribed, appeared in the listings. Turned out, when the recorder who always wrote with a superflurished script retired, and a new person took over, they filed anyone who's name had a D, F, or P, that he had filled out the paperwork for, they placed under the letter T in the new files. So then when the transcription to digital form took place, the folks during that period of time who were chunked the new file, were all considered to be the letter T.
Now if the family had an event that was recorded, prior to the time of the fancy script writer, their name appeared with the proper letter, and that is how they finally figured out what happened. Unfortunately, I find records that still show them as Teutschmann from time to time. I've seen the originals, and it is easy to see how they made that mistake.
Re: Excess Deaths
I've seen some of those original census reports that were hand written in script. Some of the misspelled names prompted me to look at the original record, at which point it all became clear. The original was chicken scratching not script that can be read by humans. That is one problem but also people doing the transcription to digital are under pressure to finish their work in a certain amount of time. The transcriber doesn't have time to figure out any ambiguities. Then, there are the cases you describe where the census taker takes matters into their own hands. Be that all as it may, there is a lot of useful information in those census papers. One of the more amusing aspects is when they list the job of the person. Some of the titles are very imaginative and refer to professions that no longer exist. The 2030 census is going to be pretty interesting as far as job descriptions go. A lot of people will be replaced by robots and artificial intelligence. By the time the 2040 census comes around, there should only be about half a dozen people actually working and doing something in between those cyborgs and robots.
Re: Excess Deaths
I hear ya. I've seen on Census reports the jobs of being an Ice Cutter/Lumberjack/Sawmill operator.
Another was, Sews elastic on men's underwear. Another, I just feed the mules and muck stalls, hi hi.
Another one that kills me the most is looking at a families Census records over a 30 or 40 year time span.
The About ages fluctuate sometimes by 6 to 8 years, and none even close to the actual birth date.
And how can Harry and Mary, be the same couple as Lloyd and Marie, or Harold and Lizie. Yet they are the same people.
I have one that is shown on most records as Edly, when the birth certificate shows George. Draft card cleared that up, the guys name is George Edley. But his dad's name is George Joseph, so he is not a Junior.
Yet some folks show him as Geo. Jr., hi hi.
I keep the joints on 22 robots oiled, and fluid in their reservoirs. 2040 Census, hi hi.
Another was, Sews elastic on men's underwear. Another, I just feed the mules and muck stalls, hi hi.
Another one that kills me the most is looking at a families Census records over a 30 or 40 year time span.
The About ages fluctuate sometimes by 6 to 8 years, and none even close to the actual birth date.
And how can Harry and Mary, be the same couple as Lloyd and Marie, or Harold and Lizie. Yet they are the same people.
I have one that is shown on most records as Edly, when the birth certificate shows George. Draft card cleared that up, the guys name is George Edley. But his dad's name is George Joseph, so he is not a Junior.
Yet some folks show him as Geo. Jr., hi hi.
I keep the joints on 22 robots oiled, and fluid in their reservoirs. 2040 Census, hi hi.
Re: Excess Deaths
All the right information is out there, but not a single document can be trusted to be entirely correct. Those "about" birth dates from the census reports are useful in the sense that when placed in the tree some good hints are generated. A few times those hints have gone off in a new direction that doesn't make sense when compared to the census. The "about" birth date clarifies certain matters in that case and allows me to confidently toss the suggested hint.
I was totally baffled by the number of Georges in my dad's family until I realized their middle names were different. The confusion arose because the middle name was not identified in my original research which led me to assign a whole branch of the family to the wrong George. Once I got that figured out, then the real George's wife decided she had enough of him and married somebody else. She only brought one of the kids with her and had a couple with the new husband. As it happened, the new husband, John, was a descendant of another John with a different middle name. And, of course, you know, John and his new bride named their first kid ... John. I was going nuts for a while until I got all those middle names straightened out. Only then did the tree start to make sense. I can understand why progeny are named after their ancestors. The living family knows who is who. But the permanent records are not always so straight forward.
Well, I've been experimenting with a version of those new chat bots with AI language skills and they can be pretty clever. I see a future for them in genealogy. Figuring out all the ambiguities in family trees should be a snap for them. The only requirement is that they have the databases in their training. Since the major ancestry websites have those databases, it's just a matter of time before the AI bots take over the genealogists jobs.
I was totally baffled by the number of Georges in my dad's family until I realized their middle names were different. The confusion arose because the middle name was not identified in my original research which led me to assign a whole branch of the family to the wrong George. Once I got that figured out, then the real George's wife decided she had enough of him and married somebody else. She only brought one of the kids with her and had a couple with the new husband. As it happened, the new husband, John, was a descendant of another John with a different middle name. And, of course, you know, John and his new bride named their first kid ... John. I was going nuts for a while until I got all those middle names straightened out. Only then did the tree start to make sense. I can understand why progeny are named after their ancestors. The living family knows who is who. But the permanent records are not always so straight forward.
Well, I've been experimenting with a version of those new chat bots with AI language skills and they can be pretty clever. I see a future for them in genealogy. Figuring out all the ambiguities in family trees should be a snap for them. The only requirement is that they have the databases in their training. Since the major ancestry websites have those databases, it's just a matter of time before the AI bots take over the genealogists jobs.
Re: Excess Deaths
I hit a strange one the other night while working on genealogy.
Person did not appear in her parents 1960 Census, which was taken around 1964 I think.
She appeared in her parents 1970 Census as being born on About 1974.
And again in her parents 1980 Census showed she was born on About 1972.
She did not appear in her parents 1990 Census. But did appear in the 1990 Census with her husband, born About 1976.
The marriage license gave their full birth dates, and she was shown there as born on March 22nd, 1968.
But then when I ran across her Birth Certificate, it showed she was born on March 22, 1969.
One of the personal family trees who had this person, showed she was baptized on July 1968, but they didn't have a birth date for her. So I figure, they must have had the 1969 birth date and realized it was wrong so deleted it.
Ahh Yes, George's, we have a gazillion in our family also. Must have been a really common name for a while.
And a few of the George ancestors named their kids George also. So, as you said, if you don't know the family, getting them with the right wives and children can be a daunting headache.
Almost all of our early family records came from bibles and church records that were passed down to certain family members who kept them safe.
My aunt Muff who cobbed many of aunt Mary's genealogy records, mostly the original copies passed away. They were all marked to pass to me if I was still living. But NO, the cousin who stole all her money also took them and this person is not interested in genealogy at all, in fact he hates it big time. He argued to have his, his brother, and his parents left out of our genealogy records. When he told me to do it, I told him you cannot erase history! It is there whether you like it or not.
The years I worked in the Family History Center, transcribing data from Microfilm and Microfiche, they had a triple check system they used. Basically, and I considered this a waste of time, but three volunteers were all given the same records to transcribe, and then their computers compared what we turned in. If it found some entries different, it would flag them for the curator to double check and compare. Not bragging, but when there were discrepancies in the data entered, mine was usually the correct one, which earned me a star on the board for each one. I must have had over 75 stars up on the board behind my name, hi hi. But to get a star, there has to be errors on other records turned in, and yours had to be the correct one. By the same token, you could lose a star if yours was wrong and the others were correct.
On a different but similar note:
During the time I was President of a PWP chapter, I had access to all the member records, past and present, since the founding of that chapter. I could also get the records of a couple of other chapters in the area, which produced some interesting data.
Do you know how many kids of divorced parents, eventually end up getting divorced themselves, and many more as the years rolled on. Back in the 1920's to 1950's parents would stick it out, rather than getting a divorce. But after WWII, divorces started becoming more commonplace, and by the 1970's it's like they traded models every few years, hi hi.
The number of Widows and Widowers in PWP was mind boggling. And some of the stories they told sounded like they belonged in a Stephen King novel. One ladies husband was killed when someone trying to commit suicide landed on them. Another, a shard from a window pane from a skyscraper hit him smack on top of the head and cut down to below his throat.
One had the wire from a champagne bottle hit him in the eye and he stumbled backwards over the railing of the balcony where they were having the party and landed on the concrete edge of the pool two stories below.
Then there were a few who were shot during hold-ups at the store where they worked.
And like my cousin, a crane he was operating fell over and crushed him.
I could go on for days about all the deaths I've heard about which happened in bizarre ways.
Person did not appear in her parents 1960 Census, which was taken around 1964 I think.
She appeared in her parents 1970 Census as being born on About 1974.
And again in her parents 1980 Census showed she was born on About 1972.
She did not appear in her parents 1990 Census. But did appear in the 1990 Census with her husband, born About 1976.
The marriage license gave their full birth dates, and she was shown there as born on March 22nd, 1968.
But then when I ran across her Birth Certificate, it showed she was born on March 22, 1969.
One of the personal family trees who had this person, showed she was baptized on July 1968, but they didn't have a birth date for her. So I figure, they must have had the 1969 birth date and realized it was wrong so deleted it.
Ahh Yes, George's, we have a gazillion in our family also. Must have been a really common name for a while.
And a few of the George ancestors named their kids George also. So, as you said, if you don't know the family, getting them with the right wives and children can be a daunting headache.
Almost all of our early family records came from bibles and church records that were passed down to certain family members who kept them safe.
My aunt Muff who cobbed many of aunt Mary's genealogy records, mostly the original copies passed away. They were all marked to pass to me if I was still living. But NO, the cousin who stole all her money also took them and this person is not interested in genealogy at all, in fact he hates it big time. He argued to have his, his brother, and his parents left out of our genealogy records. When he told me to do it, I told him you cannot erase history! It is there whether you like it or not.
The years I worked in the Family History Center, transcribing data from Microfilm and Microfiche, they had a triple check system they used. Basically, and I considered this a waste of time, but three volunteers were all given the same records to transcribe, and then their computers compared what we turned in. If it found some entries different, it would flag them for the curator to double check and compare. Not bragging, but when there were discrepancies in the data entered, mine was usually the correct one, which earned me a star on the board for each one. I must have had over 75 stars up on the board behind my name, hi hi. But to get a star, there has to be errors on other records turned in, and yours had to be the correct one. By the same token, you could lose a star if yours was wrong and the others were correct.
On a different but similar note:
During the time I was President of a PWP chapter, I had access to all the member records, past and present, since the founding of that chapter. I could also get the records of a couple of other chapters in the area, which produced some interesting data.
Do you know how many kids of divorced parents, eventually end up getting divorced themselves, and many more as the years rolled on. Back in the 1920's to 1950's parents would stick it out, rather than getting a divorce. But after WWII, divorces started becoming more commonplace, and by the 1970's it's like they traded models every few years, hi hi.
The number of Widows and Widowers in PWP was mind boggling. And some of the stories they told sounded like they belonged in a Stephen King novel. One ladies husband was killed when someone trying to commit suicide landed on them. Another, a shard from a window pane from a skyscraper hit him smack on top of the head and cut down to below his throat.
One had the wire from a champagne bottle hit him in the eye and he stumbled backwards over the railing of the balcony where they were having the party and landed on the concrete edge of the pool two stories below.
Then there were a few who were shot during hold-ups at the store where they worked.
And like my cousin, a crane he was operating fell over and crushed him.
I could go on for days about all the deaths I've heard about which happened in bizarre ways.
Re: Excess Deaths
Reading your comments about divorced people caused me to have a flashback to my high school days English class. I was fairly good with syntax, had no vocabulary to speak of, and was a loner with no public speaking skills at all. So, of course, this one English teacher decided to devote most of her class to teaching us how to give speeches and presentations. I think it made life easier for her because she didn't have to do any class planning. She handed out subjects and made the students do their own research. There were about 30 of us in the class and each period two of us gave a presentation and took questions afterword. That left about two days a month for her to actually do some teaching. After a while she decided to make us pick our own topics, which was part of the grade. Dumb topics got lower grades. Being illiterate as I was, it became extremely difficult to come up with something I could research and talk about for ten minutes.
One day I read an article in some magazine regarding divorces. The article claimed the obvious. If your parents divorced, you are well more than likely to do the same. And, due to the lack of family structure there are behavioral issues in most of those kids. I gave the speech but little did I realize a few of the kids in my class came from divorced families. You would not believe the chaos that erupted in the Q & A after I gave my talk. LOL It was quite embarrassing in fact given I had no clue about the kids in my class, nor did I know anything about the psychology of divorced families. Unfortunately I don't recall if I got a high grade or a low grade for that talk. But I was very careful about the next topics I had to cover.
My very first job was as office boy in an envelope company. It was privately owned and very much a family oriented business atmosphere. The company accountant took a liking to me and gave me a weekly job. There was a book with all the sales and commissions listed in it. At the end of the month the commissions were tallied and that is what the sales person got paid. My job was to do that tally. It spooked me at first because I knew somebody's paycheck depended on my numbers. So I did a triple check of the numbers. The adding machine I used had a paper roll printout and I went through the commissions book three times to get three separate printouts. I then compared the three to find errors, of which there always was at last one. It was easy enough to fix once detected, but that was the only way I could think of to hand in accurate numbers. Even then the sales people would complain because THEIR numbers didn't jive with MY numbers. The accountant was the ultimate arbitrator and the problem usually was that a sale did not get recorded in the little black book. My tallies were always, as far as I knew, accurate.
One day I read an article in some magazine regarding divorces. The article claimed the obvious. If your parents divorced, you are well more than likely to do the same. And, due to the lack of family structure there are behavioral issues in most of those kids. I gave the speech but little did I realize a few of the kids in my class came from divorced families. You would not believe the chaos that erupted in the Q & A after I gave my talk. LOL It was quite embarrassing in fact given I had no clue about the kids in my class, nor did I know anything about the psychology of divorced families. Unfortunately I don't recall if I got a high grade or a low grade for that talk. But I was very careful about the next topics I had to cover.
My very first job was as office boy in an envelope company. It was privately owned and very much a family oriented business atmosphere. The company accountant took a liking to me and gave me a weekly job. There was a book with all the sales and commissions listed in it. At the end of the month the commissions were tallied and that is what the sales person got paid. My job was to do that tally. It spooked me at first because I knew somebody's paycheck depended on my numbers. So I did a triple check of the numbers. The adding machine I used had a paper roll printout and I went through the commissions book three times to get three separate printouts. I then compared the three to find errors, of which there always was at last one. It was easy enough to fix once detected, but that was the only way I could think of to hand in accurate numbers. Even then the sales people would complain because THEIR numbers didn't jive with MY numbers. The accountant was the ultimate arbitrator and the problem usually was that a sale did not get recorded in the little black book. My tallies were always, as far as I knew, accurate.