Pencil Sharpener

[Kellemora]

I get tons of posts on things archaeologists have found, and much of it makes what history we know about our early ancestors way off by millions and millions of years. Either that are carbon dating is a lot further off than they claim it is, hi hi.

We may have the brains the animals don't, but many of them have the power to wipe us out easily if they chose to.
And don't underestimate the power of some of the bacteria we have out there that can do us in also.

[yogi]

I don't see how any of that points to us being an alien's lab experiment or the byproduct of a creative god. Life on earth may never be fully understood, but we do know a great deal about it. We know, for example, that animals in general and/or bacteria do not have the sensibilities to plot an annihilation of the human race. They are not capable of plotting or having what we know as motivation. We don't know the exact origin of life yet because there are many possibilities; even absurd ones. Until enough data can be compiled to eliminate all but one cause, all we can do is speculate.

[Kellemora]

Agreed! The fact they are finding million year old Hominids is startling in a way. Did man come just after the dinosaurs and while some were still roaming the earth, like the wooly mammoths?

[yogi]

From what I know about this planet's condition a couple million years ago, it is hard to imagine humans being capable of living in that world. But does it matter? When it all started and how it all evolved is academic. The environment was suitable for life to begin, and so it did. That's it. There is no other way to analyze it sensibly. From where and how the universe came and evolved is an entirely different question. That's the topic that fascinates me. Quantum physics has a theory to explain it all, and I'm happy with that.

[Kellemora]

Or simply put, we really don't know how it all happened.
We can speculate, make guesses, looks at unusual odd things archaeologists have found, or think they found.
We can't deny they found them, because they are on display to go see them, in most cases.
What about that Nazi Coin dated 2039? Is it a hoax, did it come from a parallel universe, did a time travelers lose it while back in the early BC era?
Way to many things have been found that bring up tons of questions. Like how many civilizations came before us?
Who really built the pyramids, and how, and why. Or things much older than the pyramids?
Our bodies are comprised of the dust of the ground. There is nothing in our bodies that is not found on Planet Earth.
So all we can do is go, Hmmm.

[yogi]

There is a lot of speculation and misinformation out there regarding our planet's history. People who have the best handle on it are scholars and not likely to be read by the desktop archeologist. That is not to say there are no mysteries in our history. Even expert scientists of our time have a list of unsolved problems. The best approach is to go with the experts, and those people are hard to find because they tend to only publish among their peers. You know, peer review and all that. I'll just say it one more time. The history of it all is nice to to know but mostly irrelevant. We have to deal with what is happening today and not speculate about the past. My more serious intellectual curiosity looks for explanations about the origins of the universe. Knowing that would go a long way to explain the missing links and gaps in our planet's history.

[Kellemora]

I love reading about it, but then forget it within 5 minutes, hi hi.
Lot's of neat things currently happening in the universe.
What amazes me is the sheer number of exoplanets they have found similar to earth.

[yogi]

What amazes me is the sheer number of exoplanets they have found similar to earth.

Statistically there has to be millions of those earth-like orbs. Some are ahead of us, and some are behind. I have a feeling some are among us too. LOL

[Kellemora]

I honestly think, the most advanced civilizations, have come and gone, and we are still lagging behind, even with all of our current day technology.

Now whether those advanced civilizations started out on this planet or some other planet, that I don't know, but can speculate there are probably some out there ahead of us, and some way behind us. And I don't doubt some way out ahead of us, hi hi.
It's hard to believe with all the constellations out there, that we would be the only ones.

[yogi]

The new James Webb Space telescope just picked up an image from 11.3 BILLION LIGHT YEARS distance. That is the farthest any detector here on earth has been able to see. Think about how vast that space is covering 11 billions of light years. There has to be billions upon billions of opportunities for places like earth to have developed. And, that is the farthest we have been able to see up to this point, but there is more beyond that.

Beings from those other exoplanets may look like us, but more likely is the possibility that they are entirely different. They may not even have physical bodies. I've talked about this before and it's worth mentioning again. Consciousness, the mind, is separate and apart from the human body. There could be places populated by consciousness' and we would never be able to detect them with physical apparatus. That is why I suggested they may actually be here among us and we just cant "see" them.

[Kellemora]

I don't doubt there are aliens among us. Men in Black as they say, or even those living in a different dimension so we can't see them.
They keep finding structures here on planet earth that are older than man has been around, as far as we know that is.
It turns out some of the other pyramids they have found pre-date the ones in Egypt by 10,000 and 50,000 years.
Looking at some of the old hieroglyphics, they are seeing things that couldn't possibly have existed at the time those tablets or carvings were made. Some of them do show carvings of men with helmets holding what looks like our cell phones.

I assume some day we will know what all is out there, long after we are gone.
If there is a heaven where we will know all and be 30 years old again, that would be great, hi hi.

[yogi]

I think people have the wrong idea about heaven. First of all I doubt that there is such a thing. Nobody has ever found anything explainable in space that could be attributed to all those souls who should be out there. The misconception is that those souls are anything like us humans. Keep in mind that when the soul supposedly departs from the body all sensory organs and brain functions are left behind. Exactly what is left? If anything? I claim consciousness is what is left and can no longer be individualized as is each human body. It's hard to imagine how a blob of consciousness would interact with us mere mortals. It doesn't seem possible, yet people "pray" to their gods all the time.

When we die I can see one of two scenarios. We simply fade to black and that is the end of anything related to our existence. Or, should there be remnants of consciousness that once resided in our brains, it will merge with all the rest of consciousness in the universe. There will be no recognition of individuals. It simply will be, for lack of a better word, energy, floating around freely in the universe.

[Kellemora]

Who said they are in outer space?
According to the Scriptures, which I know you don't follow.
After the judgement, Heaven will be right here on planet earth for us earthlings.
There will be a New Heaven and a New Earth, and this is where we will spend eternity.

As I believe, when we die, our soul sleeps, and our spirit returns to the God who gave it.
What is a soul? Clearly stated it is The Breath of Life! So any living creature that has breath also has a soul.
When we cease to breath, called death, our soul either no longer exists or is asleep.
Whether or not our soul is reunited with our spirit remains to be seen.

[yogi]

We live in two different universes, at least from a spiritual point of view. But, you already knew that.

You seem to make a distinction between soul and spirit, and I don't. I suppose that is what the Bible teaches and you would be the expert there. While I understand there is a need for beliefs in our lives, my perspective on life and death is rooted more in facts and reality. That's the reason why I don't have confidence in the existence of souls, spirits, heavens, or hells. There isn't any hard evidence supporting any of it. It's easy enough to find comfort in thinking this earth will somehow transform into whatever it is heaven amounts to because that is in fact a very pleasant image. I, however, can't see it being much more than just an image.

[Kellemora]

Nearly everything mentioned in the Bible has been documented thoroughly, and archaeologists have found most of the places.
There are many documents not contained in the Bible that also lend credence to the fact stated in the bible, and some weird stuff too, that could have been done by propaganda folks, as they were proven to be in error.

But I look at it this way. If I'm wrong, and there is no Heaven or afterlife with God, I still die and that's the end.
But if I'm right, and their is a Hell for the non-believers, look at all they will miss out on. Eternal life with the Lord.

There is some confusion about the place we call Hell. Those in Hell do not stay there for eternity.
Like fuel to a furnace, they get consumed, and then simply cease to exist.
At least that is my take on it, not the eternal damnation some preacher yell about, hi hi.
Although death is eternal, you don't suffer for eternity, as God would not allow that.

Now on the other hand, maybe who we think is God is an Alien who founded the human race, and forgot about us.

[yogi]

My first objection to Bible teachings is that it assumes there is such a thing as a God. Jesus is a little more questionable but the consensus seems to be some form of that man did exist in history at some point. There are a lot of concurrent legends similar to the story of Jesus to make any one of them suspect. I don't doubt the historical value of the Old Testament, but the stories depicting our origins and a Supreme Being are questionable in my mind.

I also have the "eternal damnation" threat figured out. As mentioned earlier in this thread I believe consciousness is akin to what people think of as a soul or a spirit. As such it departs from the body at death and thus leaves behind any possibility of experiencing pain, or joy for that matter. You might ask yourself if the flame of a fire feels hot, given that Hell is said to be full of fire and brimstone. Well no, the flame is not capable of feeling anything. So it is when we die. Whatever remains is insensate.

It's simply not plausible that any existence after the body loses it's life would take on any human elements at all. The idea that God feels sorry for mankind is not very godlike. That's more of a human characteristic. You know, Supreme Beings are supposed to be SUPREME, and perfect. Not human. Those folks who attribute human qualities to their gods are missing the point.

[Kellemora]

Every civilization has had their round of Gods.
Which basically means, they all believed there was some higher power out there.
Who they attributed this power to is what brings the thought of a God into question.

But assuming the stories in the Bible are accurate, and all those many miracles did occur.
Who or what would you attribute them to?

[yogi]

People explained the things they did not understand in terms of gods and unseen spirits. They simply didn't have the science to understand why the moon circles the earth, for example, and thus claimed it to be an act of god. Every civilization had the same problem at it's origins. They simply made up stories to explain the unknown. However, every event has a rational explanation whether we understand it or not. Those biblical miracles might not have been miracles at all, but they got recorded as such because nobody knew how to explain them. If miracles did indeed happen, why don't we see any today? Are you asking me to believe they only happen in Biblical times? There certainly are things we can't explain fully right here in the year 2022, but none of those things are miraculous. Trust me on that one.

But assuming the stories in the Bible are accurate, and all those many miracles did occur.
Who or what would you attribute them to?

The hypothetical assumption there is flawed. If miracles did happen they would defy the laws of physics. Admittedly we my not know all the laws, but we know enough to be sure miracles cannot occur. Then to assume any human like creature can modify or defy the laws of nature is nothing short of wishful thinking. You might as well do a rain dance to cure the drought we are having in the southwest. Now THAT would be a miracle if it worked.

[Kellemora]

I've seen with my own two eyes a few amazing miracles that completely stumped medical science.
Plus, I've had a few small miracles myself, one of which still remains as parts of which are of an unknown origin.

I know the faith healers are usually a bunch of bunk.
Those they supposedly healed were always OK from day one, and just plants in their audience.

One church I belonged to, I was assigned that day as one of the door greeters. One of the Elders of the church asked me to keep a look-out for his parents and told me what they would be wearing. He told me to just show them to their seat which was pre-assigned by him in a special guest section we had in the church. He said they will probably not talk since they don't know a lick of English, but will have a card with my name on it to show you. They would also probably be the only older couple to arrive via a Checker Cab which he ordered for them.
Well, they arrived OK, and I greeted them at the door, just like I do everyone else, and since I knew their names already, I said hello using their names and said their son want's me to show you to your seats. They also talked to me, besides just saying Thank You in perfect English, the lady told me her son insisted they come today. Her husband said a couple of other things I also heard in plain English.
After the initial part of the services, when her son went and sat down with them, they turned around a few times and pointed at me, to show her son who seated me.
I forget what language they spoke now, but after the service, their son cornered me and wanted to know when and where I learned their language so well. I told him I don't know a lick of whatever it was. He told me his mother said I spoke their language perfectly and in the dialect of their district, and her husband agreed with her. However, after the service, and we were all together again, I didn't understand a single word they said, and they couldn't understand me either. Her son had to translate what I said for them.
This is what I perceive the 'gift of tongues' to mean, not some gibberish rattled off by the Pentecostals and Charismatics.

[yogi]

Interesting story there. I had a similar experience when I was delivering newspapers as a young teenager. I also had to collect the subscription fees every week from all my customers. This involved knocking on their door, announcing who I am, and waiting for them to bring the 65 cents or so to me. One of my customers was Scandinavian, or so his accent sounded as such. I rang the bell and heard some conversation about not having enough small change to pay me. I announced that I had enough to create change for that twenty dollar bill, or maybe it was a ten dollar bill. LOL Anyway, the man came to the door with the saw buck and asked where I learned how to speak ... whatever language it was. I told him I don't have any knowledge of the language which surprised him. He wanted to know how I understood what the was saying to his wife. Well, I don't know how. It just sounded like English so that I responded in English.

I don't know if your story or mine qualifies as a miracle, but they surely are strange occurrences. While I contend that there is a rational explanation for everything on the physical level, I'm not so sure about mental or emotional experiences. Then again, nobody ever claimed feelings are rational.