Both my brother and I had the same plans in mind to carry the business on to much greater heights.
Plus at the time, we had the necessary funds to implement what we would do.
We knew for a fact that our flagship, funeral flowers, was a dying breed, as were the big shindigs we also supplied flowers for.
This is one of the reasons we were building so many greenhouses down at Barrett Station Road, in order to raise tropicals and bedding plants. H. J. Hymos bought out our BSR greenhouses, because we were raising what they needed the most of, and of course we got out of the business entirely. Well Sorta, I had built Wonder Plant Systems downtown and it was going like gangbusters at the time too, so I didn't miss all that extra hot greenhouse work. My plants were all raised indoors in a factory like setting, not under glass or plastic, but inside of concrete walls, floors, and ceilings with climate control. No dirt, no bugs, no mess, for me it was the way to go, hi hi. Shame a crooks stole it from me.
Great Big Agro-Farming operations usually raise one thing and one thing only, and have all the Monster Sized Equipment geared around that one crop. And no matter how many of these Humongous Farming Operations pop-up, the small farmers are who handles all the delicate plants, vegetables, and fruits for the local markets.
It is only the BIG GUYS who get subsidies to plow under crops because too many are raising too much of the same thing.
Now if we step back in time to when we were an early florist. Nearly every family in an area had a garden large enough to supply their own family. When we were a Market before becoming a Florist, we usually raised the types of things home gardeners didn't like to mess with, but we still raised the normal stuff too for those who lived inside a city, or in apartments with no place to grow their own stuff.
As an example, although most folks had gardens, many did not like to grow potatoes or onions, it was a dirty mess they left to the real farmers. Plus we could do it easier in bulk with many of the methods we could use that didn't work on a small scale.
We were just in the right place at the right time to transition slowly from produce to flowers. And it paid off and lasted for many years during the funeral flower boom that finally began to fade out.
The cost of everything had been climbing over the years until both mom and dad had to go to work to make ends meet, and sadly now we are past the point of living on a two person income, so what we can buy with our hard earned money has dwindled down to almost only the bare necessities for most normal folks.
How To Make Springs
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Re: How To Make Springs
My grandpa owned a farm about 30 miles from our house in the city. It was only 40 acres in size and about 5 of those acres were dedicated to living quarters and storage. Grandpa didn't actually farm anything. He rented out the acreage to one of the neighbors and essentially got paid for doing nothing. LOL My point is that grandpa never had any complaints about the crops or the livestock because he didn't deal with any of it. He just tinkered about those five acres and watched the neighbor do all the work.
I fell in love with and married a gal whose mom grew up on an Iowa farm. She moved to Chicago to be with her husband but her heart was back in Iowa. Thus then retirement came around the two of them found a place well outside of a small Iowa town. It was in the middle of a cornfield in fact. They had six or eight neighbors on the one road and the corn. That was it. Well, sometimes it was soybeans. Wife's mom, and her mom, told all kinds of farm stories similar to what you reminisce about here. It was hard life, but a clean and satisfying one. As the farming years passed on, the ability to keep the farm solvent became harder and harder. I don't recall if they got subsidies or not, but I'm thinking not. The government wasn't into farm support in those early days. But the last of the family to run the farm did tell stories of how they were subsidized but never enough to bring them up to the poverty level. So the farm got sold for $100 an acre. The last farmer I talked to a few months ago could get something like $40,000 an acre for his farm. I asked him why he did not retire and live the life of a millionaire. He told me the farm was in the family for many generations and he was the last scion to have an interest in it. He didn't want to give it up. My point here is that just about all the small farmers I've talked to since I've been married have been living the same sort of life as you describe. Some got government help, inadequate but still help. Others could not sell their stock at the current market prices without taking a loss on each head. All of them agreed that the big agriculture companies were the only people making a decent profit. You know I am a city boy and find all these stories fascinating. I don't quite understand why there still are so many small time farmers if life is so impossible. Well, I do understand some of them. They would rather die broke of starvation that move to the city. And that's the truth.
I fell in love with and married a gal whose mom grew up on an Iowa farm. She moved to Chicago to be with her husband but her heart was back in Iowa. Thus then retirement came around the two of them found a place well outside of a small Iowa town. It was in the middle of a cornfield in fact. They had six or eight neighbors on the one road and the corn. That was it. Well, sometimes it was soybeans. Wife's mom, and her mom, told all kinds of farm stories similar to what you reminisce about here. It was hard life, but a clean and satisfying one. As the farming years passed on, the ability to keep the farm solvent became harder and harder. I don't recall if they got subsidies or not, but I'm thinking not. The government wasn't into farm support in those early days. But the last of the family to run the farm did tell stories of how they were subsidized but never enough to bring them up to the poverty level. So the farm got sold for $100 an acre. The last farmer I talked to a few months ago could get something like $40,000 an acre for his farm. I asked him why he did not retire and live the life of a millionaire. He told me the farm was in the family for many generations and he was the last scion to have an interest in it. He didn't want to give it up. My point here is that just about all the small farmers I've talked to since I've been married have been living the same sort of life as you describe. Some got government help, inadequate but still help. Others could not sell their stock at the current market prices without taking a loss on each head. All of them agreed that the big agriculture companies were the only people making a decent profit. You know I am a city boy and find all these stories fascinating. I don't quite understand why there still are so many small time farmers if life is so impossible. Well, I do understand some of them. They would rather die broke of starvation that move to the city. And that's the truth.
Re: How To Make Springs
That's basically how my brother and I ran those 20 greenhouses. We were sharecroppers for the man who built and owned that long row of quanset hut type greenhouses. Fortunately for us, the rent was cheap because everyone who leased them turned out going broke. I think we were the only ones who made a nice tidy profit from them, so were there the full term of our lease.
Actually eight months longer than our five year lease going month to month. Until the florist closed down a few months after we moved out of there.
The Tomosavich family got 30k per acre for their farm, and here we only got like 6 grand per acre for ours when they finally sold out.
Some area families became very rich, because they had like 40 acre farms they got free from the government and held onto them for several generations, and up until developers wanted them for subdivisions. The Heitmann family got over 16 million dollars for their chunk of land, for the building of a major shopping center. But I think they had over 80 acres with most of it on main highway frontage too. Why one place sells for cheap and another for top dollar is always mind boggling.
But then you learn why some of them sold for so high and wonder how they pulled that off, when the lots next door sold for pennies on the same road.
Actually eight months longer than our five year lease going month to month. Until the florist closed down a few months after we moved out of there.
The Tomosavich family got 30k per acre for their farm, and here we only got like 6 grand per acre for ours when they finally sold out.
Some area families became very rich, because they had like 40 acre farms they got free from the government and held onto them for several generations, and up until developers wanted them for subdivisions. The Heitmann family got over 16 million dollars for their chunk of land, for the building of a major shopping center. But I think they had over 80 acres with most of it on main highway frontage too. Why one place sells for cheap and another for top dollar is always mind boggling.
But then you learn why some of them sold for so high and wonder how they pulled that off, when the lots next door sold for pennies on the same road.
Re: How To Make Springs
Real estate is all about location, location, and location. But, you already knew that. Plus, it doesn't explain why one location is better than the other. If it is PERCEIVED as being better. then you can get top dollar for your property. Then, too, it's not always perception. Sometimes the buyer has a particular feeling that allows them to pay more than what you would expect. When I sold my house to move up here, I got a very good price; the buyer thought it was built well. The real estate agent discounted all that when we talked about pricing. She said people are not interested in Pella windows or 6" outside walls. Well, the first guy to see it was interested enough to buy it an any cost because of the construction. Farm land probably has similar attractions especially if you are a builder. You might be concerned about how much grading you need to do, or not, and that would affect his offer. The listing price notwithstanding.
Looking back at my limited experiences I must say that I have done very well in real estate. Each house sold for about double what I paid for it, not including mortgage interest by the way. That can never be recovered. All my success has been due to good old fashioned luck. I didn't have any clever investment plan nor did I have a lot of cash to play with. Things just happened. Such as the current house has a market value about 30% higher than what we paid 6 years ago. Clever? Nahh. I'm sure your house in Knoxville has benefited from the same market forces as mine. We are just in different locations.
Looking back at my limited experiences I must say that I have done very well in real estate. Each house sold for about double what I paid for it, not including mortgage interest by the way. That can never be recovered. All my success has been due to good old fashioned luck. I didn't have any clever investment plan nor did I have a lot of cash to play with. Things just happened. Such as the current house has a market value about 30% higher than what we paid 6 years ago. Clever? Nahh. I'm sure your house in Knoxville has benefited from the same market forces as mine. We are just in different locations.
Re: How To Make Springs
Since I'm only really familiar with downtown St. Louis from 30 years ago when i was a general contractor doing houses. It really is amazing how the value of a single block, between many bad blocks, can fetch much higher prices.
And I know I told you the story about the group that turned Lafayette Square into what it is today.
One of the guys I bought a couple of houses from was doing just that, buying up houses all in the same area, hoping to get enough of them all on a single street or within a single block. The closer he got to doing that, the cheaper he sold his holdings outside of those promising areas. Which is how I got a few to work on myself. Then he did something that really surprised me. He bought an entire block up in north St. Louis where a fire damaged over 90% of the homes up there and had to be torn down.
However, the foundations for all the houses was still good. He added a new road in the middle of the block that ran to the center of the block which he made into a large circle drive, but not round like a cul-de-sac, more like a square actually.
When he built the new houses on top of the old foundations, instead of facing the existing square grid of streets, he turned them all around backwards, so the front of the houses faced the center of the block and his new square road. This way they all had tiny backyards and large front yards. And most of the folks who bought there built a stockade fence to enclose their backyards. With this concept he was able to get more than double what the houses would have been if they faced the street like the rest of the houses on those roads.
Sometime later, probably by about 5 years or so, I happen to be up in that neighborhood and saw the homeowners had an ornate cast-iron fence placed all the way around the block, and an electric gate to get in. I suppose that doubled the value of those houses once again.
After they built three new houses across the street from us, and two new houses to my left or west, our property values went up and this old concrete block stucco house was out of place. So I had new thermal windows and doors, and vinyl siding placed on the house. Most of which was damaged by the hailstorm along with our roof. So now I have a beautiful new roof using architectural shingles which looks awesome, and all new siding installed after I added two new room additions. I also had the garage and both of my storage sheds done with the same type of roof and siding, so it all matches perfectly.
Trouble is, all this work raised the value of my house, and my assessment so taxes have gone way up.
We added Debi's son to the Deed, and then 30 days later took her name off the Deed. So her son will reap all the increase in value because he don't want the house he will sell it. I felt my son should get some of the equity since I put in a custom bathroom, custom kitchen and have the hard rooms to do finished. All new copper supply plumbing from the street and throughout the house, new PVC waste piping inside, the laterals were replaced not too many years before when they were taken off the septic tank and added to the mainline sewer, so all was new at that time, at least from the outside of the house to the street. I spent more on our kitchen remodel than I did for the entire house, hi hi.
But it is still and old house with crooked little floors and crooked little ceiling. I did however get most of the walls back to plumb, hi hi.
And I know I told you the story about the group that turned Lafayette Square into what it is today.
One of the guys I bought a couple of houses from was doing just that, buying up houses all in the same area, hoping to get enough of them all on a single street or within a single block. The closer he got to doing that, the cheaper he sold his holdings outside of those promising areas. Which is how I got a few to work on myself. Then he did something that really surprised me. He bought an entire block up in north St. Louis where a fire damaged over 90% of the homes up there and had to be torn down.
However, the foundations for all the houses was still good. He added a new road in the middle of the block that ran to the center of the block which he made into a large circle drive, but not round like a cul-de-sac, more like a square actually.
When he built the new houses on top of the old foundations, instead of facing the existing square grid of streets, he turned them all around backwards, so the front of the houses faced the center of the block and his new square road. This way they all had tiny backyards and large front yards. And most of the folks who bought there built a stockade fence to enclose their backyards. With this concept he was able to get more than double what the houses would have been if they faced the street like the rest of the houses on those roads.
Sometime later, probably by about 5 years or so, I happen to be up in that neighborhood and saw the homeowners had an ornate cast-iron fence placed all the way around the block, and an electric gate to get in. I suppose that doubled the value of those houses once again.
After they built three new houses across the street from us, and two new houses to my left or west, our property values went up and this old concrete block stucco house was out of place. So I had new thermal windows and doors, and vinyl siding placed on the house. Most of which was damaged by the hailstorm along with our roof. So now I have a beautiful new roof using architectural shingles which looks awesome, and all new siding installed after I added two new room additions. I also had the garage and both of my storage sheds done with the same type of roof and siding, so it all matches perfectly.
Trouble is, all this work raised the value of my house, and my assessment so taxes have gone way up.
We added Debi's son to the Deed, and then 30 days later took her name off the Deed. So her son will reap all the increase in value because he don't want the house he will sell it. I felt my son should get some of the equity since I put in a custom bathroom, custom kitchen and have the hard rooms to do finished. All new copper supply plumbing from the street and throughout the house, new PVC waste piping inside, the laterals were replaced not too many years before when they were taken off the septic tank and added to the mainline sewer, so all was new at that time, at least from the outside of the house to the street. I spent more on our kitchen remodel than I did for the entire house, hi hi.
But it is still and old house with crooked little floors and crooked little ceiling. I did however get most of the walls back to plumb, hi hi.
Re: How To Make Springs
I really like the idea you describe where all the houses were turned around to face a center courtyard. When I win the lottery that is exactly the idea I had in mind for creating a family compound. One of my daughters thought it was an awesome idea, and so did one of her kids (my granddaughter). The other daughter didn't have much to say about it and we have not spoken about that dream to any of my wife's brother and sisters. I doubt the other grandchildren would want to live that close to the rest of the family. They moved thousands of miles away from home, and I'd not be surprised if the motive was to get away from the family. LOL Be that all as it may, that would be my idea of family living. I also would go with the fence, but I think it would have to be twelve feet high, made of stone, and possibly surrounded by a moat. There would be an armed guard at the gate, of course.
I think your current living arrangement is perfect for your needs. It's a shame you could not complete the renovations you intended to make, but the rest of the residence sounds like a great castle home. The increase in taxes is one reason I never finished off my basement. Any such improvements were to be reported to the mortgage company and the assessor. Even something simple as putting tile down on the floor would be considered a taxable improvement. I have the feeling something like that would happen to this house if I ever did anything to make the basement pleasing to the eye. Heaven forbid that I should have some actual living space down there. The real estate taxes here are a lot less than Chicago, but still. One reason I moved here is to keep the taxes low as possible. I don't know how drastic the change would be, but I have no doubt the assessor here is just as greedy as the one up north.
I think your current living arrangement is perfect for your needs. It's a shame you could not complete the renovations you intended to make, but the rest of the residence sounds like a great castle home. The increase in taxes is one reason I never finished off my basement. Any such improvements were to be reported to the mortgage company and the assessor. Even something simple as putting tile down on the floor would be considered a taxable improvement. I have the feeling something like that would happen to this house if I ever did anything to make the basement pleasing to the eye. Heaven forbid that I should have some actual living space down there. The real estate taxes here are a lot less than Chicago, but still. One reason I moved here is to keep the taxes low as possible. I don't know how drastic the change would be, but I have no doubt the assessor here is just as greedy as the one up north.
Re: How To Make Springs
I've been in mobile home parks down in Florida that were set up that way, and you really can't tell they are mobile homes because of all the restrictions and rules that apply to the nicer places.
I allowed one inside appraisal after they double our taxes once before, told them I would be glad to sell them the house for the assessed price. The guy did come out, took a look through the house, and cut our appraisal back down by about 40%, which in turn brought our taxes back down. But that was before I did the bathroom and kitchen, or added on two room additions.
It won't take much to finish the two rooms I've not yet done. But I do want all new electric in there too, first.
One room I could get by with doing only drywall, but financially, I can't even afford that right now.
Not even using cheap help.
I allowed one inside appraisal after they double our taxes once before, told them I would be glad to sell them the house for the assessed price. The guy did come out, took a look through the house, and cut our appraisal back down by about 40%, which in turn brought our taxes back down. But that was before I did the bathroom and kitchen, or added on two room additions.
It won't take much to finish the two rooms I've not yet done. But I do want all new electric in there too, first.
One room I could get by with doing only drywall, but financially, I can't even afford that right now.
Not even using cheap help.
Re: How To Make Springs
About a month ago wife and i were out shopping. On the way home she claimed she knew of a shortcut that would keep us off I-70 expressway. I have no problem with expressway driving but I was curious about her short cut. It turns out that she never actually used this path but had a "good idea" about where it led to. It didn't go where she thought and we ended up in what I could only call a trailer park. I knew there are a couple here in O'Fallon, but I never tried to find any of them. This one was not the dumpy kind that I have been through next to the outdoor theater up near Chicago. They were jam packed up there and it didn't appear to be very well kept up. This one we ran into in O"Fallon was not at all like the drive-in theater park up north. There was a good amount of space between these mobile homes and most of them were finished off to look close to being permanent. structures. Some even had garages that appeared to be attached but I'm sure they were really carports. It was a clean and fairly good looking community, but obviously a place for temporary housing. I don't know who lives there, but there were several hundreds of them that we were able to see while being lost. I was impressed with what I saw but don't know that I'd ever want to live there. LOL
I don't think fixing up two rooms would be very expensive down in Knoxville. Then again, I realize that when you don't have enough cash to buy a box of nails, hiring somebody to finish off your house would be impossible. Besides, nobody would be able to make things square and plumb like you could. It's probably best to leave it unfinished. Less aggravating that way.
I don't think fixing up two rooms would be very expensive down in Knoxville. Then again, I realize that when you don't have enough cash to buy a box of nails, hiring somebody to finish off your house would be impossible. Besides, nobody would be able to make things square and plumb like you could. It's probably best to leave it unfinished. Less aggravating that way.
Re: How To Make Springs
Some trailer parks look really nice, while others, well, they look like trailer parks, hi hi.
I had help with my room addition on the back patio. But the guy, although great at siding, didn't listen, and didn't use some of the materials I bought for him to use to protect the base. I dug out and poured the footing for it before my first heart attack, so it was ready to go, and I had some materials he never ever used before.
The first of these was a strip of tar to be laid around the exterior perimeter, then over the whole flooring area was supposed to go a thick mill plastic liner, then over the plastic and tar strips was supposed to go a roll of aluminum flashing, and then the wolmanized sill plate. At least he used the wolmanized sill plate, but nothing else.
Against the concrete block wall of the front and back wall, here too he was supposed to use the self-adhesive 1/2 inch thick polyethylene foam before he bolted up the vertical stud against the wall, didn't do that either.
Sometime between putting the roof rafters up, he managed to knock the east wall of studs out of plumb by a good 1-1/2 inches.
So when I went to install the window after he was done with what I hired him to do, I had to build a box inside the window area to get it back to plumb. In order to put up the plywood exterior panels, I had to cut a 2x4 diagonally, lengthwise, to bring that east wall to plumb with the south wall which turned out just fine.
He set the ceiling joists 1-1/4 inches higher than he was told to, and where I had the marks for him to place them. So, if I wanted the existing ceiling in the kitchen to line up with the ceiling joists, I had to cut some 2x4s down and screw them up to the ceiling joists. Extra lumber, and extra work after having him help. But in the end it all came out like I wanted it to.
Although I could do the drywall work myself, I had my bro-in-law give me a hand, since I wasn't supposed to lift anything over 20 pounds myself anymore.
That room addition is completely done, because it was part of the kitchen remodel that required taking out a concrete block exterior wall. The original wall on the south side of the kitchen, which was a lot of work also.
Then of course I had to bring the patio slab up to level with the existing kitchen floor which took more lumber yet.
I had help with my room addition on the back patio. But the guy, although great at siding, didn't listen, and didn't use some of the materials I bought for him to use to protect the base. I dug out and poured the footing for it before my first heart attack, so it was ready to go, and I had some materials he never ever used before.
The first of these was a strip of tar to be laid around the exterior perimeter, then over the whole flooring area was supposed to go a thick mill plastic liner, then over the plastic and tar strips was supposed to go a roll of aluminum flashing, and then the wolmanized sill plate. At least he used the wolmanized sill plate, but nothing else.
Against the concrete block wall of the front and back wall, here too he was supposed to use the self-adhesive 1/2 inch thick polyethylene foam before he bolted up the vertical stud against the wall, didn't do that either.
Sometime between putting the roof rafters up, he managed to knock the east wall of studs out of plumb by a good 1-1/2 inches.
So when I went to install the window after he was done with what I hired him to do, I had to build a box inside the window area to get it back to plumb. In order to put up the plywood exterior panels, I had to cut a 2x4 diagonally, lengthwise, to bring that east wall to plumb with the south wall which turned out just fine.
He set the ceiling joists 1-1/4 inches higher than he was told to, and where I had the marks for him to place them. So, if I wanted the existing ceiling in the kitchen to line up with the ceiling joists, I had to cut some 2x4s down and screw them up to the ceiling joists. Extra lumber, and extra work after having him help. But in the end it all came out like I wanted it to.
Although I could do the drywall work myself, I had my bro-in-law give me a hand, since I wasn't supposed to lift anything over 20 pounds myself anymore.
That room addition is completely done, because it was part of the kitchen remodel that required taking out a concrete block exterior wall. The original wall on the south side of the kitchen, which was a lot of work also.
Then of course I had to bring the patio slab up to level with the existing kitchen floor which took more lumber yet.
Re: How To Make Springs
You are one heck of a guy when it comes to general contracting, but apparently you never audited any law classes when you went to college. LOL You hired a guy to do a specific job using specific material and he did not fulfill his end of the bargain. That seems like legal grounds to withhold payment. But, if none of that was written up into a contract (a lawyer would be needed for that), then you are at the mercy of whatever the handyman is capable of doing, or not. it would bug the daylights out of me if I hired a guy to do a job and he didn't do it properly. I'm sure this guy's lack of skill didn't sit right with you either. Unfortunately you didn't enforce your requirements. Fortunately, you were able to fix it up after the helper left the scene.
We had an architect make the plans for our old house. He actually modified existing plans from another project so that his bill for services wasn't as high as it could have been. He offered to go on site from time to time to assure that the house was being built according to plan, but he wanted something outrageous for each visit. I regret that I didn't pay him that outrageous fee because the builder screwed up some major items in the house. I don't know how that builder would have responded to the architect's admonishments, if there were any. My guess is he would protest the same way your guy did saying he never did it that way before. Sometimes that' is ok, but our front door ended up 4 inches off from where it should have been. It looked fine from the outside but the door frame was up against the wall inside. That didn't look good at all. To correct the problem would have involved removing outer wall bricks and shifting the door over to where it was intended to be. I'm guessing the architect would have caught that and re-bricking would have been a lot easier during the build process than it would be years later.
We had an architect make the plans for our old house. He actually modified existing plans from another project so that his bill for services wasn't as high as it could have been. He offered to go on site from time to time to assure that the house was being built according to plan, but he wanted something outrageous for each visit. I regret that I didn't pay him that outrageous fee because the builder screwed up some major items in the house. I don't know how that builder would have responded to the architect's admonishments, if there were any. My guess is he would protest the same way your guy did saying he never did it that way before. Sometimes that' is ok, but our front door ended up 4 inches off from where it should have been. It looked fine from the outside but the door frame was up against the wall inside. That didn't look good at all. To correct the problem would have involved removing outer wall bricks and shifting the door over to where it was intended to be. I'm guessing the architect would have caught that and re-bricking would have been a lot easier during the build process than it would be years later.
Re: How To Make Springs
He had the blueprints I drew up showing what went where first and I even explained why.
But the day he came to start on the room addition, just happened to be a day I had to go to the doctors.
I was gone before he came, and he had the walls up and part of the roof when I got home.
He's done a lot of other work for me and it was perfect.
Then later on when my wife had him build a deck for us, it ended up costing more than double in materials, and very shoddy work too. Lot's of measurement mistakes as well.
I could have bought a pre-made, covered, nice looking deck, delivered and set up for about half of what he charged me.
And all the wife wanted was a simple deck, not something you could drive a Mac truck back and forth on, hi hi.
He used 6x6 posts, where 4x4 were more than enough, and he used 2x12s where 2x8s would have been plenty sturdy.
And he didn't put the decking boards down right side up either. Some he did, others were upside down, which caused them to cup and hold water.
I think he should have just stuck with doing siding which he's an expert at, hi hi.
But the day he came to start on the room addition, just happened to be a day I had to go to the doctors.
I was gone before he came, and he had the walls up and part of the roof when I got home.
He's done a lot of other work for me and it was perfect.
Then later on when my wife had him build a deck for us, it ended up costing more than double in materials, and very shoddy work too. Lot's of measurement mistakes as well.
I could have bought a pre-made, covered, nice looking deck, delivered and set up for about half of what he charged me.
And all the wife wanted was a simple deck, not something you could drive a Mac truck back and forth on, hi hi.
He used 6x6 posts, where 4x4 were more than enough, and he used 2x12s where 2x8s would have been plenty sturdy.
And he didn't put the decking boards down right side up either. Some he did, others were upside down, which caused them to cup and hold water.
I think he should have just stuck with doing siding which he's an expert at, hi hi.
Re: How To Make Springs
We added a deck to the house I referred to in my last reply. The deck planks were alternating right-side-up next to an up-side-down plank. I was told this is the correct way but don't remember why. It has something to do with expansion of the boards after a few years. Verifying that with Google produces every answer you can think of. Some say all up, some say all down, and some say alternate. Aft4er being so enlightened (?) i decided the crown should be facing upward on all the boards. This is due to the fact that the wood will expand in the opposite direction of the growth rings. That means after a certain number of years all crowns will disappear and the planks will be flat. I suppose that means after even more years the edges will curl up and you have something like rain gutters on your deck instead of flat planks. LOL
We had a choice of using real wood or synthetic wood. We have the synthetic stuff in this house and it looks exactly like it did the day it was installed. Maybe a little dirtier. But, the planking didn't shrink or curl as opposed to what wood does. I happen to like the appearance of wood in spite of the fact that it requires more maintenance. Then there are people who like the look of plastic simulated wood. If I recall correctly the material costs for the synthetic wood was about twice real wood. Who knows what it is today?
It's quite a different story when you have an old friend do work for you verses a total stranger. I'm not sure if I'd call him back after he messed up the first time. Calling in a worker of unknown quality couldn't be any worse.
We had a choice of using real wood or synthetic wood. We have the synthetic stuff in this house and it looks exactly like it did the day it was installed. Maybe a little dirtier. But, the planking didn't shrink or curl as opposed to what wood does. I happen to like the appearance of wood in spite of the fact that it requires more maintenance. Then there are people who like the look of plastic simulated wood. If I recall correctly the material costs for the synthetic wood was about twice real wood. Who knows what it is today?
It's quite a different story when you have an old friend do work for you verses a total stranger. I'm not sure if I'd call him back after he messed up the first time. Calling in a worker of unknown quality couldn't be any worse.
Re: How To Make Springs
The side farthest from the center of the tree is supposed to face upwards, so they won't hold water.
Also, if you start with damp or wet wood, the boards should touch each other, because they will shrink as they dry out.
However, if it is kiln dried too much, so the moisture content is below a certain point, then you space the boards out a bit, because they will swell slightly with outdoor humidity, which will then cause them to buckle.
I did my walkway in synthetic wood, only because it doesn't become slippery like wood does.
I've always did all of my own work myself. Sometimes it wasn't perfect, but it was always better than I could have hired it done for me.
One of the fellows who delivered my kitchen cabinets, took the time to look at the special work that was done in my kitchen, namely all the alcoves for the appliances, and extra valves for everything.
He said it must have cost a fortune to have all that extra work done. Said he's been delivering cabinets for over 15 years and has never seen such workmanship to make things come out perfectly. Made me feel good!
Also, if you start with damp or wet wood, the boards should touch each other, because they will shrink as they dry out.
However, if it is kiln dried too much, so the moisture content is below a certain point, then you space the boards out a bit, because they will swell slightly with outdoor humidity, which will then cause them to buckle.
I did my walkway in synthetic wood, only because it doesn't become slippery like wood does.
I've always did all of my own work myself. Sometimes it wasn't perfect, but it was always better than I could have hired it done for me.
One of the fellows who delivered my kitchen cabinets, took the time to look at the special work that was done in my kitchen, namely all the alcoves for the appliances, and extra valves for everything.
He said it must have cost a fortune to have all that extra work done. Said he's been delivering cabinets for over 15 years and has never seen such workmanship to make things come out perfectly. Made me feel good!
Re: How To Make Springs
I never saw your work, unfortunately, other than the pictures you showed me. That was enough to convince me how you strive for perfection in all that you do. I think it's part of your genetic makeup because you tend toward perfection in other ways too. I doubt that many craftsmen would say they try to do less than perfect, but you actually learned how to do it and applied it to your work. There are a lot of high quality professionals out there that can do an excellent job, but you strive for perfection. Excellence isn't good enough. Unless you have been telling me fibs all this time, I know how good you are especially when other professionals point it out. You can fool the average man, but it's way hard to fool the pro. So, I can only conclude that if the pro says you are perfect, then you are perfect. 
After doing my 15 minutes of diligent research on Google, I would build my own deck with the crowns up. The water would roll off in theory for at least the first year. After that the wood will absorb moisture and expand. The expansion would be away from the center of the growth rings, because that's how Mother Nature works. Thus those crowns would flatten out after some years of expansion. If allowed to continue to expand then gullies will form because the edges of the planks would begin to curl upward. They don't stop or change direction just because they have been sitting out in the rain for so many years. However, by the time it gets to that last stage where the planks are retaining water instead of shedding it, I will be in the market for a new deck. LOL
I didn't realize synthetic wood didn't get slippery. I thought just the opposite was true. We only have it on our deck and we don't go out there in the rain or the snow. Thus I would not know how slippery it is.
After doing my 15 minutes of diligent research on Google, I would build my own deck with the crowns up. The water would roll off in theory for at least the first year. After that the wood will absorb moisture and expand. The expansion would be away from the center of the growth rings, because that's how Mother Nature works. Thus those crowns would flatten out after some years of expansion. If allowed to continue to expand then gullies will form because the edges of the planks would begin to curl upward. They don't stop or change direction just because they have been sitting out in the rain for so many years. However, by the time it gets to that last stage where the planks are retaining water instead of shedding it, I will be in the market for a new deck. LOL
I didn't realize synthetic wood didn't get slippery. I thought just the opposite was true. We only have it on our deck and we don't go out there in the rain or the snow. Thus I would not know how slippery it is.
Re: How To Make Springs
Well, I'm not exactly what you would call perfect. There are a lot of things I could probably have done better if I had more experience and/or the proper tools for the job. I do make mistakes, I just don't point them out, hi hi.
In my own kitchen, because a wall was out of plumb at the top, and I didn't catch it, and really should have. The wall behind the counter to the right side of my fridge is technically 1/2 inch longer than it should have been. But nobody knows this except me. It is the right width for the fridge to the countertop. But at the top it shifted the cabinet over the fridge to the right just enough I had to use a cabinet spacer of 1/2 inch so all the cabinets lined up just right.
The people installing the cabinets were amazed I thought ahead and installed a 2x4 horizontal where the top of the cabinets got bolted on. That way they could put the bolts all in the same places to hold the cabinets and not worry about finding studs. Same with the base cabinets also. Made their job much easier!
Here's one you'll get a chuckle out of. One of my customers had built a steel storage building some time eons ago on the corner of his deck. This particular shed had a steel floor in it with ribbed seams. When he built the shed, he glued it down to his deck so it would never blow off the deck, hi hi. Many years later when the top had rusted away, he tore it down but left the steel floor with the ribbing glued to the deck. It still looked good, so he went out and bought more flat steel sheets and glued them down to his deck and added little aluminum strips as caps between the seams. It didn't look half bad. But those little metal strips made using chairs on the deck a royal pain. He had asked me to pour a thin layer of concrete over the whole deck thick enough to cover the metal beads. I talked him out of it, because I knew it would crack up really fast and he would be displeased. I thought perhaps if I used concrete glue and mortar and painted it on like I did foundations it might hold up. But he wanted to think on it for a while.
About that time I as also able to get Targinol fairly cheap, and had done several floors and a couple of garages, and they were holding up just fine. I remembered the dimensions of his deck, and how deep I would have to go to cover those metal strips. But then I came up with this idea that you would say was probably hair brained. I bought some thick Kraft paper, about the thickness of pasteboard boxes, and several rolls of copper foil used in stained glass work. I drew up my idea and presented to him. The Kraft paper would reduce the amount of Targinol needed by quite a bit.
It took two layers of the paper to be as high as the existing seams, but I decided to go over the entire deck with another layer rolled out as a single sheet across the deck, with one seam in the center widthwise.
Thank goodness it didn't rain, hi hi. After all the paper was glued down, I ran a copper strip down the center seam, which was about 4 feet from the wall, and centered on the deck. Then I ran copper strips every 3 feet vertically across the deck. Three feet because that is what looked the best. Then I got the first layer of Targinol down, which was supposed to be the only layer and it looked nice too. He asked how much it cost to do another thin layer, because he wanted to add something else to the top of the deck while it was still tacky. It wasn't that expensive, but I was done for the day and thought I was done with the job. He called me a couple of days later to come out and put another coat on for him. He went out and bought from a craft store some multi-colored oak leaves and he stuck them down several places on the deck. He spaced them out in such a way they looked nice, but he also messed up the deck by walking on it. And of course by now it was dry. I told him due to the footmarks and now raised areas it would take probably a thicker coat that we planned to make it back level again.
He told me to only put one more coat down but use the whole bucket, which I did, and it actually came out looking really great, and smooth too. The colored leaves he put down bled a little but very slightly, which gave an interesting appearance around and above them. I was back at his place about 3 years later when he needed a new washer dryer hookup installed, and that deck looked exactly the same as the day I finished it.
He had decided to move the washer and dryer upstairs from his basement, so his wife didn't have to go up and down the steps so often. He used one of corner bedrooms and turned it into like a hobby work room, so he also had me put in a corner sink.
In my own kitchen, because a wall was out of plumb at the top, and I didn't catch it, and really should have. The wall behind the counter to the right side of my fridge is technically 1/2 inch longer than it should have been. But nobody knows this except me. It is the right width for the fridge to the countertop. But at the top it shifted the cabinet over the fridge to the right just enough I had to use a cabinet spacer of 1/2 inch so all the cabinets lined up just right.
The people installing the cabinets were amazed I thought ahead and installed a 2x4 horizontal where the top of the cabinets got bolted on. That way they could put the bolts all in the same places to hold the cabinets and not worry about finding studs. Same with the base cabinets also. Made their job much easier!
Here's one you'll get a chuckle out of. One of my customers had built a steel storage building some time eons ago on the corner of his deck. This particular shed had a steel floor in it with ribbed seams. When he built the shed, he glued it down to his deck so it would never blow off the deck, hi hi. Many years later when the top had rusted away, he tore it down but left the steel floor with the ribbing glued to the deck. It still looked good, so he went out and bought more flat steel sheets and glued them down to his deck and added little aluminum strips as caps between the seams. It didn't look half bad. But those little metal strips made using chairs on the deck a royal pain. He had asked me to pour a thin layer of concrete over the whole deck thick enough to cover the metal beads. I talked him out of it, because I knew it would crack up really fast and he would be displeased. I thought perhaps if I used concrete glue and mortar and painted it on like I did foundations it might hold up. But he wanted to think on it for a while.
About that time I as also able to get Targinol fairly cheap, and had done several floors and a couple of garages, and they were holding up just fine. I remembered the dimensions of his deck, and how deep I would have to go to cover those metal strips. But then I came up with this idea that you would say was probably hair brained. I bought some thick Kraft paper, about the thickness of pasteboard boxes, and several rolls of copper foil used in stained glass work. I drew up my idea and presented to him. The Kraft paper would reduce the amount of Targinol needed by quite a bit.
It took two layers of the paper to be as high as the existing seams, but I decided to go over the entire deck with another layer rolled out as a single sheet across the deck, with one seam in the center widthwise.
Thank goodness it didn't rain, hi hi. After all the paper was glued down, I ran a copper strip down the center seam, which was about 4 feet from the wall, and centered on the deck. Then I ran copper strips every 3 feet vertically across the deck. Three feet because that is what looked the best. Then I got the first layer of Targinol down, which was supposed to be the only layer and it looked nice too. He asked how much it cost to do another thin layer, because he wanted to add something else to the top of the deck while it was still tacky. It wasn't that expensive, but I was done for the day and thought I was done with the job. He called me a couple of days later to come out and put another coat on for him. He went out and bought from a craft store some multi-colored oak leaves and he stuck them down several places on the deck. He spaced them out in such a way they looked nice, but he also messed up the deck by walking on it. And of course by now it was dry. I told him due to the footmarks and now raised areas it would take probably a thicker coat that we planned to make it back level again.
He told me to only put one more coat down but use the whole bucket, which I did, and it actually came out looking really great, and smooth too. The colored leaves he put down bled a little but very slightly, which gave an interesting appearance around and above them. I was back at his place about 3 years later when he needed a new washer dryer hookup installed, and that deck looked exactly the same as the day I finished it.
He had decided to move the washer and dryer upstairs from his basement, so his wife didn't have to go up and down the steps so often. He used one of corner bedrooms and turned it into like a hobby work room, so he also had me put in a corner sink.
Re: How To Make Springs
I would not think kraft paper would be a sufficient backing for a Targinol floor, not even two thick layers of it. The paper seems to be too soft for a underlayment and I can't imagine it being stable on an outside deck. Then again, I never worked with Targinol. The copper foil over the seams makes sense but the vertical placement of copper strips is hard for me to imagine. I know what you did but can't perceive the eye appeal. I guess it didn't matter in that case because the owner put his own touch on top of it all with those oak leaves. That might have eye appeal on a deck.
I suppose nothing is truly perfect, but I can sense your higher degree of quality that is put into all your pursuits. I've called a lot of repair people out to the house over the 50 odd years I've been a homeowner and I had a chance to evaluate them all. Only a few were truly concerned about the quality of their workmanship. They all did the job, but the really good craftsmen were unmistakable. Oddly enough, they were more often than not the owners of the business.
I suppose nothing is truly perfect, but I can sense your higher degree of quality that is put into all your pursuits. I've called a lot of repair people out to the house over the 50 odd years I've been a homeowner and I had a chance to evaluate them all. Only a few were truly concerned about the quality of their workmanship. They all did the job, but the really good craftsmen were unmistakable. Oddly enough, they were more often than not the owners of the business.
Re: How To Make Springs
It doesn't matter much what you put under Targinol, its like a clear rubber surface but slightly hard, but not as hard as epoxy.
I've done many floors using normal Kraft paper, torn to look like flagstone pieces and glued down with plain old Elmer's Glu-all.
The only trick is not to get any glue exposed, because under Targinol it turns snow white, even after it dries clear.
Heck, after all, if you use it like you are supposed to, you spread little plastic chips all over the floor, several layers thick, and there is nothing to hold the entire sheet of Targinol down to the subfloor then either.
I've done RecRooms where we used 33rpm and 45 rpm records spread out on a floor in a pattern, and these were laid over a beige thin cloth with music symbols printed on them. I did use an adhesive on the backs of the records so they wouldn't move around, and the cloth was stapled down so the staples were hid by the records. In the very center of the floor on one job, we glued down a brand new shiny penny in the center of a 45rpm record, that way the owner knew what year the floor was poured.
One of the salesmen who sold the Targinol showed me a picture of an old fishing cabin he did. It had old worn out wood planks for the floor that had warped really bad, but had that nice gray weathered rustic look to them too.
The reason he was so proud of that floor was because of the cracks in the floor. You can't pour Targinol on a floor like that without it running out through the cracks leaving a royal mess underneath.
That's when he got to bragging about the job. You couldn't get under the floor since it was only about 6 inches above the ground, so I was curious on how he did it.
Now you don't know this since you never worked with the stuff, but we used plastic buckets to blend the product in. You never cleaned the bucket of what was left in the bucket, just set it aside to let it dry, then peel it out of the bucket and toss it in the trash.
Well, he didn't wait for it to dry completely, and simply poured out the blended mix on a sheet of plastic and right as it set up, he cut it in little strips and packed it down into the cracks of the floor where he knew the liquid would run through. Pushed it down as far as possible without it popping out the bottom. Then he used a Turkey Baster to fill all the crack to about 1/4 inch below the surface of the boards. Once it was dry, then he could pour the Targonol super thick over the top of it all. I think he said it took three coats to fill up the bow in the boards and have about 1/8th inch over the top of the highest edges of the boards.
Once that was done, he used a blow-in foam underneath the floor, not the kind that expands with pressure though, to insulate the entire underside of the cabin. Then of course he finished the inside to make it look like a log cabin of sorts. He also had pictures of the entire finished product inside, and it did look, sharp. Not like a fishing cabin anymore for sure.
They quit selling Targinol to the public shortly after that, so I never did get to see any pictures after he finished the outside.
I know I told you how surprised folks who called me in for a plumbing job and I did everything. Not like a normal plumber who comes in and makes a rough hole in the wall to fix the pipe, then leaves and tells them to call a drywall guy.
I carefully cut out the drywall between the studs to make installing a new piece easy. In some cases I was able to reuse the piece I removed by using a shallow cut tool along the centerline of the studs. In any case, I repaired the broken pipe, dried out the area, cleaned up all the mess, installed and taped the drywall, used a dryer to dry the mud so I could prime, then I would match their existing paint and paint the wall. When I left, the place was usually cleaner than when I arrived. But the important things was, I did it all, so they didn't have to call in other people to finish the job, which would still leave them with a mess to clean up after each one. And this is just one reason why Real Estate agents called me when they wanted work done in their own homes. Plus a lot of times I did something extra they never even considered when they called me to do a job.
I had one lady Realtor who wanted another room done in her basement, after I already did one that made the room much bigger than she imagined because I made a curved wall with an alcove and closet using up dead space.
In any case, it was going to be a spare bedroom, which I told her would not pass code. A bedroom must have two means of egress. Also, the room would be very dark, when you are used to so much light down here from those large windows in the walk-out area outside of the proposed bedroom.
To make the room lighter inside, I took what is normally used as a sidelight along side an entry door, that matches the door.
I placed this up just below ceiling level, horizontal, so people couldn't see in, but light from the big windows on the exterior wall would shine in.
Then, to make it a legal bedroom with two means of egress, on the opposite wall from the window/door I put in, I made a hinged bookcase that swung open into the laundry room. This was a tricky job to do also. Normally you would hinge it on the front so it opens into the room, using a nice piano style hinge. But I wanted it opening in the opposite direction, and without taking up any space in the new bedroom, which was fairly small. And to make sure it looked like a solid built-in bookcase, it needed trim around it.
Because of the weight, I replaced the 2x4 stud that would hold the bookcase with a 2x6 stud. This of course meant the hinges it swung open on had to be about half way back on the vertical side of the bookcase, so it could open fully into the laundry room. The trim on the front when it was closed, allowed me to hide the latch that opened the lock that kept it closed.
The bed was under the wall with the horizontal window up at the top, and a desk was in the corner to the right of the bookcase. And yes it would pass code easily now too. And after that job, she showed my work to I don't know how many people, but I had lots of jobs from her friends and from those she recommended me to.
I've done many floors using normal Kraft paper, torn to look like flagstone pieces and glued down with plain old Elmer's Glu-all.
The only trick is not to get any glue exposed, because under Targinol it turns snow white, even after it dries clear.
Heck, after all, if you use it like you are supposed to, you spread little plastic chips all over the floor, several layers thick, and there is nothing to hold the entire sheet of Targinol down to the subfloor then either.
I've done RecRooms where we used 33rpm and 45 rpm records spread out on a floor in a pattern, and these were laid over a beige thin cloth with music symbols printed on them. I did use an adhesive on the backs of the records so they wouldn't move around, and the cloth was stapled down so the staples were hid by the records. In the very center of the floor on one job, we glued down a brand new shiny penny in the center of a 45rpm record, that way the owner knew what year the floor was poured.
One of the salesmen who sold the Targinol showed me a picture of an old fishing cabin he did. It had old worn out wood planks for the floor that had warped really bad, but had that nice gray weathered rustic look to them too.
The reason he was so proud of that floor was because of the cracks in the floor. You can't pour Targinol on a floor like that without it running out through the cracks leaving a royal mess underneath.
That's when he got to bragging about the job. You couldn't get under the floor since it was only about 6 inches above the ground, so I was curious on how he did it.
Now you don't know this since you never worked with the stuff, but we used plastic buckets to blend the product in. You never cleaned the bucket of what was left in the bucket, just set it aside to let it dry, then peel it out of the bucket and toss it in the trash.
Well, he didn't wait for it to dry completely, and simply poured out the blended mix on a sheet of plastic and right as it set up, he cut it in little strips and packed it down into the cracks of the floor where he knew the liquid would run through. Pushed it down as far as possible without it popping out the bottom. Then he used a Turkey Baster to fill all the crack to about 1/4 inch below the surface of the boards. Once it was dry, then he could pour the Targonol super thick over the top of it all. I think he said it took three coats to fill up the bow in the boards and have about 1/8th inch over the top of the highest edges of the boards.
Once that was done, he used a blow-in foam underneath the floor, not the kind that expands with pressure though, to insulate the entire underside of the cabin. Then of course he finished the inside to make it look like a log cabin of sorts. He also had pictures of the entire finished product inside, and it did look, sharp. Not like a fishing cabin anymore for sure.
They quit selling Targinol to the public shortly after that, so I never did get to see any pictures after he finished the outside.
I know I told you how surprised folks who called me in for a plumbing job and I did everything. Not like a normal plumber who comes in and makes a rough hole in the wall to fix the pipe, then leaves and tells them to call a drywall guy.
I carefully cut out the drywall between the studs to make installing a new piece easy. In some cases I was able to reuse the piece I removed by using a shallow cut tool along the centerline of the studs. In any case, I repaired the broken pipe, dried out the area, cleaned up all the mess, installed and taped the drywall, used a dryer to dry the mud so I could prime, then I would match their existing paint and paint the wall. When I left, the place was usually cleaner than when I arrived. But the important things was, I did it all, so they didn't have to call in other people to finish the job, which would still leave them with a mess to clean up after each one. And this is just one reason why Real Estate agents called me when they wanted work done in their own homes. Plus a lot of times I did something extra they never even considered when they called me to do a job.
I had one lady Realtor who wanted another room done in her basement, after I already did one that made the room much bigger than she imagined because I made a curved wall with an alcove and closet using up dead space.
In any case, it was going to be a spare bedroom, which I told her would not pass code. A bedroom must have two means of egress. Also, the room would be very dark, when you are used to so much light down here from those large windows in the walk-out area outside of the proposed bedroom.
To make the room lighter inside, I took what is normally used as a sidelight along side an entry door, that matches the door.
I placed this up just below ceiling level, horizontal, so people couldn't see in, but light from the big windows on the exterior wall would shine in.
Then, to make it a legal bedroom with two means of egress, on the opposite wall from the window/door I put in, I made a hinged bookcase that swung open into the laundry room. This was a tricky job to do also. Normally you would hinge it on the front so it opens into the room, using a nice piano style hinge. But I wanted it opening in the opposite direction, and without taking up any space in the new bedroom, which was fairly small. And to make sure it looked like a solid built-in bookcase, it needed trim around it.
Because of the weight, I replaced the 2x4 stud that would hold the bookcase with a 2x6 stud. This of course meant the hinges it swung open on had to be about half way back on the vertical side of the bookcase, so it could open fully into the laundry room. The trim on the front when it was closed, allowed me to hide the latch that opened the lock that kept it closed.
The bed was under the wall with the horizontal window up at the top, and a desk was in the corner to the right of the bookcase. And yes it would pass code easily now too. And after that job, she showed my work to I don't know how many people, but I had lots of jobs from her friends and from those she recommended me to.
Re: How To Make Springs
I finally go around to reading this and was super amazed at what you wrote. The small room with a book case for a door was a stroke of genius. It reminds me of some ghost story where people go disappearing into the wall. LOL I think I have a pretty good picture of what you did there, and in theory the bookcase qualified as an egress point, building code notwithstanding.
The more you tell me about Targinol the more I'm getting to like the idea. Up north I had somebody look at my basement floor to suggest what it could be coated with but all he came up with was epoxy. I kind of got the impression that is the only material those tile workers were familiar with. I didn't know the name of it at the time, but Targinol was what I wanted, not epoxy. If it's difficult to find, or is no longer made, then I don't suppose anybody around here would be able to install it either.
The question that comes to mind is what happens to the Targinol if the basement floor under it cracks?
The more you tell me about Targinol the more I'm getting to like the idea. Up north I had somebody look at my basement floor to suggest what it could be coated with but all he came up with was epoxy. I kind of got the impression that is the only material those tile workers were familiar with. I didn't know the name of it at the time, but Targinol was what I wanted, not epoxy. If it's difficult to find, or is no longer made, then I don't suppose anybody around here would be able to install it either.
The question that comes to mind is what happens to the Targinol if the basement floor under it cracks?
Re: How To Make Springs
Here is a link to their website: https://www.torginol.com/
Back when they first started, you could buy the product, but now you can only get it through their professional installers.
As far as a concrete floor, their normal way of putting it down is to lay down Luan plywood first, then put the finish over that.
Epoxy dries HARD, it can yellow and crack.
Torginol does dry hard, but is resilient, only slightly harder than a hard vinyl.
In other words, it is flexible. What we left in the buckets, even if it was a half inch thick, you could still bend it without it cracking or breaking. So a much thinner layer, although hard is still much softer than epoxy. And the nice part is, it is easily repairable.
The floor at the Drive-in theater's concession stand was done using chips right over the concrete floor. It showed no signs of wear at the door or along the counters after being down for over ten years.
If they still allowed people to buy the stuff, I would have made heavy use of it all throughout my contracting career.
If the product is applied directly over a concrete floor, and the floor had a small crack in it, you probably wouldn't know it, because the small separation would be under the chips and under the flexible top coats. But if the crack was huge, big enough to rip a hole in the flooring. You could fill the crack, add some chips over it, and then a coat over that.
You wouldn't want to cut a straight line, but instead make a zig-zag cut following the edge of some of the chips so the final finish would be not noticeable at all. But alas, we cannot buy that product anymore ourselves.
I knew a fellow who wanted to use Torginol on his small driveway, but this was after you couldn't buy it anymore.
So he found a product called Liquid Vinyl, but not the thin spray on stuff for siding, what he found dried a bit harder.
I thought he was crazy to use it on a driveway, but he said the stuff he bought was for roofs and it had to be rolled on.
He cleaned his concrete driveway, then mixed some white sand in this stuff and rolled on the first coat as thin as he could.
Let it dry overnight, then added a thicker clear coat over the top of that. It looked great for nearly 20 years, then it got bubbles in it,, and he just blacktopped over the whole thing.
Back when they first started, you could buy the product, but now you can only get it through their professional installers.
As far as a concrete floor, their normal way of putting it down is to lay down Luan plywood first, then put the finish over that.
Epoxy dries HARD, it can yellow and crack.
Torginol does dry hard, but is resilient, only slightly harder than a hard vinyl.
In other words, it is flexible. What we left in the buckets, even if it was a half inch thick, you could still bend it without it cracking or breaking. So a much thinner layer, although hard is still much softer than epoxy. And the nice part is, it is easily repairable.
The floor at the Drive-in theater's concession stand was done using chips right over the concrete floor. It showed no signs of wear at the door or along the counters after being down for over ten years.
If they still allowed people to buy the stuff, I would have made heavy use of it all throughout my contracting career.
If the product is applied directly over a concrete floor, and the floor had a small crack in it, you probably wouldn't know it, because the small separation would be under the chips and under the flexible top coats. But if the crack was huge, big enough to rip a hole in the flooring. You could fill the crack, add some chips over it, and then a coat over that.
You wouldn't want to cut a straight line, but instead make a zig-zag cut following the edge of some of the chips so the final finish would be not noticeable at all. But alas, we cannot buy that product anymore ourselves.
I knew a fellow who wanted to use Torginol on his small driveway, but this was after you couldn't buy it anymore.
So he found a product called Liquid Vinyl, but not the thin spray on stuff for siding, what he found dried a bit harder.
I thought he was crazy to use it on a driveway, but he said the stuff he bought was for roofs and it had to be rolled on.
He cleaned his concrete driveway, then mixed some white sand in this stuff and rolled on the first coat as thin as he could.
Let it dry overnight, then added a thicker clear coat over the top of that. It looked great for nearly 20 years, then it got bubbles in it,, and he just blacktopped over the whole thing.
Re: How To Make Springs
I think that what you are saying is, if I can find a professional installer that does Targinol, I can have it done. I probably would not attempt it on my own anyway, not at my age. But I have a feeling that finding somebody with the right materials might be a problem. I don't have plans to do it here, but that could change. The old house basement floor developed cracks after a few years. The general contractor who built the house also did the concrete, but my house was the first time he did that. Consequently the floor was ... lumpy would be a good way to describe it. They didn't carve any grooves in the floor to accommodate the anticipated cracking so that when the concrete finally did go to pieces it looked like a jigsaw puzzle in some spots. Some of the cracks were 1/16" wide and apparently easy enough to fill and cover with anything I wanted to pour over them. My concern was always about future cracking but I can see how a Luan underlayment would take care of that problem.
Somehow I would not think Targinol would be the right stuff for a driveway. It certainly might be durable enough if it can take the 140 degree temperature swing I'd expect a driveway to experience over the seasons. But such a smooth driveway would mean certain death if it got wet, snowy, or iced up. I was fairly happy with asphalt in spite of the maintenance it needs. I don't see much asphalt around here, certainly none in our subdivision. They just don't build houses like they used to. LOL
Somehow I would not think Targinol would be the right stuff for a driveway. It certainly might be durable enough if it can take the 140 degree temperature swing I'd expect a driveway to experience over the seasons. But such a smooth driveway would mean certain death if it got wet, snowy, or iced up. I was fairly happy with asphalt in spite of the maintenance it needs. I don't see much asphalt around here, certainly none in our subdivision. They just don't build houses like they used to. LOL