I once had a shower in a super-duper fancy shower. I have no idea what it cost but it was darn near a touchless shower experience. I like how it shampooed your hair for you, especially the fine mist of water in your face while shampooing to keep soap of your face. It was like a mild pressure washer on your scalp, that also ran down your back. I don't know how it was done, but the instructions for each step appeared on the wall. Face Here, Raise Right Arm, Lower Right Arm, Raise Left Arm, Lower Left Arm, Close eyes for 10 seconds. Turn Head Right, Turn Head Left, etc. The instructions were not a projection, but appeared on a glass frosted screen.
That's one reason I do not like Unions! He could have easily picked up a 3x4 reducer sleeve to complete the installation. But he was probably Union, so is not allowed to do work where another Union has that job.
I was licensed in Plumbing, Electric, HVAC, Fuel Systems*, Communications Systems*, and became a Licensed General Contractor. Fuel meaning Natural Gas, Propane, Fuel Oil, and Butane. I was also certified for Knob n Tube.
* Certification.
I've worked in houses that used low-voltage bell-wire to the light switches. The 120 volt AC line only ran from relays in the furnace room up to the lights. I'm sure this saved a bundle in the cost of wires for the contractor. But that relay panel was not cheap either, so it was probably a wash, and he could use non-Union folks to run bell wire, hi hi.
Residential wiring is actually a very simple project almost anyone could do easily.
Hospital wiring is probably the hardest to learn and understand. But we had to learn it to get our License.
How To Make Springs
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Re: How To Make Springs
You likely are right about the electrician being unionized. The rules down here in Missouri are probably similar to the ones they go by up north, but there is one huge difference. Every tradesman up north must be unionized. Down here it apparently is an option. Thus you don't know who you are dealing with unless you ask.
Every AC electric switch I've had occasion to view up close sparked like crazy when flipped. That didn't happen with DC. Then, too, the DC voltages were always lower. Those sparks would not go over well in a hospital environment, which I presume is the reason for needing special training to work in that environment. Electricity works the same way no matter where it is, hospital or not. The safety considerations are way more critical in a hospital than in a residential structure. I had to take a class in safety when I worked at Motorola and was building racks of test equipment. I didn't do much primary wiring in the cabinets, but I had to know what was dangerous or not. I think the only reason they sent us to class is because corporate sent inspectors to various factories on an unannounced schedule. Invariably the inspector would ask if you had safety training. All hell broke loose when some poor soul didn't take that class yet. LOL
Every AC electric switch I've had occasion to view up close sparked like crazy when flipped. That didn't happen with DC. Then, too, the DC voltages were always lower. Those sparks would not go over well in a hospital environment, which I presume is the reason for needing special training to work in that environment. Electricity works the same way no matter where it is, hospital or not. The safety considerations are way more critical in a hospital than in a residential structure. I had to take a class in safety when I worked at Motorola and was building racks of test equipment. I didn't do much primary wiring in the cabinets, but I had to know what was dangerous or not. I think the only reason they sent us to class is because corporate sent inspectors to various factories on an unannounced schedule. Invariably the inspector would ask if you had safety training. All hell broke loose when some poor soul didn't take that class yet. LOL
Re: How To Make Springs
Everything in Missouri was Union, from the grocery store check out gals to your barber and naturally all the trades as well. Including ones you wouldn't think of having a union at all.
And although unions have a lot of clout, at least in Missouri, once you were licensed, you didn't have to belong to a union, unless you were working for a union shop. All I ever had to show a client was my current licenses for the job they hired me to do. And on some jobs I showed them all of my licenses that applied to that job since I was doing all the work.
When I was building Wonder Plants, namely installing all the hi-intensity lighting, although I could do the work, I was not licensed inside the City of St. Louis, so I hired an electrician and put him on the clock as a hired employee.
I also hired an HVAC guy with heavy sheet metal experience to manufacture the hoods that went over the lights.
Since to buy those lights pre-made cost over 700 each, I opted to buy the metal housings, transformers, and lampholders and assemble them myself, or had workers assemble them for me. Then the sheet metal guy would form the hoods and the electrician put them on as he installed them on the ceiling. In the end, it only cost me like 300 bucks for each fixture or less than half of what it would have cost. Considering there were over 60 of them over the rows of plants, I saved a bundle.
Although I was licensed for St. Louis County, Franklin County, Jefferson County, and Washington County. I never did get licensed for St. Charles County. Plus there were many cities in those counties I could not work it. Like Kirkwood for example. They had their own licensing, but you still had to be licensed by the county first. I could also do work in Gray Summit, Pond, and several other cities out that way, but not Pacific, for the same reason as Kirkwood. Money hungry cities, hi hi.
And although unions have a lot of clout, at least in Missouri, once you were licensed, you didn't have to belong to a union, unless you were working for a union shop. All I ever had to show a client was my current licenses for the job they hired me to do. And on some jobs I showed them all of my licenses that applied to that job since I was doing all the work.
When I was building Wonder Plants, namely installing all the hi-intensity lighting, although I could do the work, I was not licensed inside the City of St. Louis, so I hired an electrician and put him on the clock as a hired employee.
I also hired an HVAC guy with heavy sheet metal experience to manufacture the hoods that went over the lights.
Since to buy those lights pre-made cost over 700 each, I opted to buy the metal housings, transformers, and lampholders and assemble them myself, or had workers assemble them for me. Then the sheet metal guy would form the hoods and the electrician put them on as he installed them on the ceiling. In the end, it only cost me like 300 bucks for each fixture or less than half of what it would have cost. Considering there were over 60 of them over the rows of plants, I saved a bundle.
Although I was licensed for St. Louis County, Franklin County, Jefferson County, and Washington County. I never did get licensed for St. Charles County. Plus there were many cities in those counties I could not work it. Like Kirkwood for example. They had their own licensing, but you still had to be licensed by the county first. I could also do work in Gray Summit, Pond, and several other cities out that way, but not Pacific, for the same reason as Kirkwood. Money hungry cities, hi hi.
Re: How To Make Springs
In some ways I was fortunate in my career because I did not have to deal with unions. Motorola was not a union shop which was unusual given the size of the company. There were a few votes taken over the years, mostly by the electronic techs, but none of the unions ever managed to get a foothold. The main argument was that Motorola matched and in some cases exceeded the pay and benefits a union could offer, but best of all no union dues were required to work there. The only union employees Motorola had to accept were the truck drivers, but even then there was one non union company they favored for local deliveries. They had to make a special agreement with the truckers to allow that to happen. So, because of my lack of direct involvement with labor unions, I don't have a lot of first hand knowledge of how they work. Most of what I know is anecdotal.
I don't need a lot of services here in Missouri; not yet at least. When I call people to do something there are only two considerations that matter. They must be properly licensed (not that I would know what is proper) and they must be duly insured. I can't tell if the union guys do better work or charge a fair price. Typically I have not known if the people doing things for me are union members or not. Then, too, some things are intuitively obvious. I hired a landscaping company to do my lawn while I recover from surgery - from which I am pretty well recovered, by the way. The people doing the lawn cutting look like any other people I've seen doing the same job. I've not talked to the current workers because they are in such a hurry when they get here and I'm not positive they speak English. Up north these jobs were done by non-union workers usually being paid as little as they can get away with being paid. So, I just assume it's similar down here in MIssouri because nobody does those kind of jobs by choice. Or, that is the attitude I sense.
Training of the tradesmen in Missouri must be close to what is required elsewhere. The skills required can't be all that different in any location unless we are talking Florida verses Alaska. Building homes in those two states has to involve two entirely different skill sets. Be that as it may, the quality is not the same here as it was from whence I came. That's not always as bad thing, but there is a difference in work ethic.
I don't need a lot of services here in Missouri; not yet at least. When I call people to do something there are only two considerations that matter. They must be properly licensed (not that I would know what is proper) and they must be duly insured. I can't tell if the union guys do better work or charge a fair price. Typically I have not known if the people doing things for me are union members or not. Then, too, some things are intuitively obvious. I hired a landscaping company to do my lawn while I recover from surgery - from which I am pretty well recovered, by the way. The people doing the lawn cutting look like any other people I've seen doing the same job. I've not talked to the current workers because they are in such a hurry when they get here and I'm not positive they speak English. Up north these jobs were done by non-union workers usually being paid as little as they can get away with being paid. So, I just assume it's similar down here in MIssouri because nobody does those kind of jobs by choice. Or, that is the attitude I sense.
Training of the tradesmen in Missouri must be close to what is required elsewhere. The skills required can't be all that different in any location unless we are talking Florida verses Alaska. Building homes in those two states has to involve two entirely different skill sets. Be that as it may, the quality is not the same here as it was from whence I came. That's not always as bad thing, but there is a difference in work ethic.
Re: How To Make Springs
When I was driving OTR, I landed a couple of Government Jobs simply because I was non-union. I also tried to avoid the places the union drivers stopped, because they would beat me up and knock me around, or tease me to death. But they never sabotaged the rig I was driving. When I made runs out west, usually a delivery to Kit Carson, Colorado, then I would bobtail it up to Denver and spend the night with my aunt and uncle. Then I would pick up a load of meat scraps in a reefer to drop off in Rolla, Missouri at Bow Wow Dog Food Company, the bobtail it all the way back home, unless I could get a load going that way from somewhere in Rolla, which was hard if the place knew you were a non-union driver. Some didn't care as long as their trailer ended up at the destination on time.
One of our neighborhood kids started a lawn mowing service, and we used him for a while, but then he got too busy and sometimes never showed up at all. He also never did the jobs I paid him extra to do. So he got fired.
Down here, if you get caught hiring illegal aliens, and/or paying workers under the table, you go to jail. Ironic since Tennessee does not have an Income Tax, but they do for business Income and equipment.
Getting licensed in the major trades takes a minimum of 5 years on the job, and advancing in the ranks. If you get stalled down it could take 6 to 10 years to learn enough to pass all the tests to get your license.
Tennessee is one of the crazy places where you can lose your hard earned licenses if you don't keep all of your permits active, which costs a lot of money down here.
You also have to pay annually to keep your license, so there's no kicking back for a year or two without losing them.
Missouri is quite different, once you have your license it is yours forever, whether you are working in the trades or not.
One of our neighborhood kids started a lawn mowing service, and we used him for a while, but then he got too busy and sometimes never showed up at all. He also never did the jobs I paid him extra to do. So he got fired.
Down here, if you get caught hiring illegal aliens, and/or paying workers under the table, you go to jail. Ironic since Tennessee does not have an Income Tax, but they do for business Income and equipment.
Getting licensed in the major trades takes a minimum of 5 years on the job, and advancing in the ranks. If you get stalled down it could take 6 to 10 years to learn enough to pass all the tests to get your license.
Tennessee is one of the crazy places where you can lose your hard earned licenses if you don't keep all of your permits active, which costs a lot of money down here.
You also have to pay annually to keep your license, so there's no kicking back for a year or two without losing them.
Missouri is quite different, once you have your license it is yours forever, whether you are working in the trades or not.
Re: How To Make Springs
Getting beat up by the union truckers is an image that has contributed to my disliking unions on principle. They act like gangsters and run their show like the Mafia. Being from Chicago you would think I'd be accustomed to the gangster lifestyle. Well, that's a stereotype, Al Capone notwithstanding.
Your description of Tennessee taxes reminds me of how I think the federal government could be improved. Taxes should primarily be levied on business profits. I know the consumer pays it all in the final analysis, but without the burden of paying personal taxes there is more money in one's pocket at the end of the day. A great example of this is from my old friend in England who used to brag about the "free" healthcare everyone there received. She believed it was free because she personally didn't pay any taxes, albeit her husband did via payroll deductions. So, to her not being taxed directly, and not paying at the doctor's office, left her with more money to buy tea and crumpets. Actually she smoked like a steam locomotive and put her spare cash into rolling her own. So not having an income tax dose not mean government services are free. It just puts the burden of paying actual cash on businesses. That makes it seem as if you have more discretionary funds.
Your description of Tennessee taxes reminds me of how I think the federal government could be improved. Taxes should primarily be levied on business profits. I know the consumer pays it all in the final analysis, but without the burden of paying personal taxes there is more money in one's pocket at the end of the day. A great example of this is from my old friend in England who used to brag about the "free" healthcare everyone there received. She believed it was free because she personally didn't pay any taxes, albeit her husband did via payroll deductions. So, to her not being taxed directly, and not paying at the doctor's office, left her with more money to buy tea and crumpets. Actually she smoked like a steam locomotive and put her spare cash into rolling her own. So not having an income tax dose not mean government services are free. It just puts the burden of paying actual cash on businesses. That makes it seem as if you have more discretionary funds.
Re: How To Make Springs
I was a little guy to start with, I'm only 5'9" and have never weighed over 145 pounds in my entire life, except for a short term chocolate binge I went on. So even though I avoided the stops most of the union drivers made, I still got picked on my local drivers in nearly every town anyhow, but at least not beat up, hi hi.
Those guys would be at breakfast eating a dozen or two pancakes, and here I would order only two pancakes, because a short-stack was even too much for me to eat. "He boy, you don't eat enough to keep a bird alive!" "Hey boy, did you get out of that BIG TRUCK out there?" It was everywhere, and constant. And it is sorta funny, at one stop where there were a couple of female truckers having lunch, when some fellows started picking on me. A couple of those gals got up and moved down next to me, and I expected them to start picking on me too. But they didn't, they stood up for me with those big burly guys, hi hi.
After a few years on the road commercially, I learned where most of the cops ate lunch and dinner, and kept notes for when I was going that way again. If there were cops in there eating, I never got picked on, which only fueled me to find those diners where the cops eat at. The problem there is, most of those places don't have a place to park a big rig. So I always had to find someplace I could park and then walk there to eat. But that too worked out at other places as well. If nobody saw me getting out of a big rig, and I came walking in to eat like a normal person, they didn't pick on me then either.
I'll say this about the OTR experience. It is totally different now than it was back when I was driving.
The problem with placing the tax burden on businesses, is in the end, it costs the consumer a lot more than if they paid the taxes themselves. But since 99% of the people out there don't know this, they want companies to be taxed more. If they only knew they were hurting themselves.
The Government has no money itself, nor do they generate any unless you mean printing more and destroying the dollar.
The Government can only pay out, what it first takes from someone else, and they get paid handsomely for doing that.
Nearly every president we've ever elected has started some type of department in order to hire their relatives and friends and get them on the payroll. Many of those departments get expanded with each new sitting president and even more departments get added. It is very rare for a department, once created, to be eliminated.
Then they turn around and give money to other countries without doing anything to help our people here first.
Those guys would be at breakfast eating a dozen or two pancakes, and here I would order only two pancakes, because a short-stack was even too much for me to eat. "He boy, you don't eat enough to keep a bird alive!" "Hey boy, did you get out of that BIG TRUCK out there?" It was everywhere, and constant. And it is sorta funny, at one stop where there were a couple of female truckers having lunch, when some fellows started picking on me. A couple of those gals got up and moved down next to me, and I expected them to start picking on me too. But they didn't, they stood up for me with those big burly guys, hi hi.
After a few years on the road commercially, I learned where most of the cops ate lunch and dinner, and kept notes for when I was going that way again. If there were cops in there eating, I never got picked on, which only fueled me to find those diners where the cops eat at. The problem there is, most of those places don't have a place to park a big rig. So I always had to find someplace I could park and then walk there to eat. But that too worked out at other places as well. If nobody saw me getting out of a big rig, and I came walking in to eat like a normal person, they didn't pick on me then either.
I'll say this about the OTR experience. It is totally different now than it was back when I was driving.
The problem with placing the tax burden on businesses, is in the end, it costs the consumer a lot more than if they paid the taxes themselves. But since 99% of the people out there don't know this, they want companies to be taxed more. If they only knew they were hurting themselves.
The Government has no money itself, nor do they generate any unless you mean printing more and destroying the dollar.
The Government can only pay out, what it first takes from someone else, and they get paid handsomely for doing that.
Nearly every president we've ever elected has started some type of department in order to hire their relatives and friends and get them on the payroll. Many of those departments get expanded with each new sitting president and even more departments get added. It is very rare for a department, once created, to be eliminated.
Then they turn around and give money to other countries without doing anything to help our people here first.
Re: How To Make Springs
During the Eisenhower presidential administration the corporate tax rate was 53%.
The corporate tax rate today is around 28% which is about half what it was in the 50's.
Obviously today's consumer is paying a greater share of income taxes than they were during Eisenhower's time. Do we have more disposable income these days because corporations are paying less and not transferring their costs onto us?
About the only competition the Italian Mafia had in America was the Teamsters Union. They were all gangsters but each of a slightly different ilk. It's all run on the Good Ol' Boy system. In politics it's called authoritarianism or a dictatorship. Either way, if you're not part of the mob, you are dead meat. I find your comment about the female truckers taking your side to be interesting. That's one reason why I firmly believe women should be running the political system and not men. LOL
The corporate tax rate today is around 28% which is about half what it was in the 50's.
Obviously today's consumer is paying a greater share of income taxes than they were during Eisenhower's time. Do we have more disposable income these days because corporations are paying less and not transferring their costs onto us?
About the only competition the Italian Mafia had in America was the Teamsters Union. They were all gangsters but each of a slightly different ilk. It's all run on the Good Ol' Boy system. In politics it's called authoritarianism or a dictatorship. Either way, if you're not part of the mob, you are dead meat. I find your comment about the female truckers taking your side to be interesting. That's one reason why I firmly believe women should be running the political system and not men. LOL
Re: How To Make Springs
Doesn't matter what the corporate tax rate is, because the money does not come from the corporations, it is compounded in the manufacturing and distribution chain, and in the end, it is ALL paid by the end consumer. Companies actually make a tiny profit from handling all that tax work for the IRS.
If you made Widgets and your cost to make them was 20 cents, and you sold them for 25 cents, and were taxed 10 cents for each one you sold, how much would you make? You would be losing more than 5 cents on each one, due to the added accounting for taxes. Your only option is to sell them for 35 cents the cost of the tax, then pay 16 cents tax on the next round due to the higher price. If you don't you won't be in business for long.
I've never seen one good thing about a union yet.
But you might be right about having women run the country, perhaps with the exception of those like Hillary Clinton who would have been more of a disaster then Biden/Soros. You have to admit the Clinton's are a Crime Family, along with Biden's.
If you made Widgets and your cost to make them was 20 cents, and you sold them for 25 cents, and were taxed 10 cents for each one you sold, how much would you make? You would be losing more than 5 cents on each one, due to the added accounting for taxes. Your only option is to sell them for 35 cents the cost of the tax, then pay 16 cents tax on the next round due to the higher price. If you don't you won't be in business for long.
I've never seen one good thing about a union yet.
But you might be right about having women run the country, perhaps with the exception of those like Hillary Clinton who would have been more of a disaster then Biden/Soros. You have to admit the Clinton's are a Crime Family, along with Biden's.
Re: How To Make Springs
Because most of my life experience has been lived as a consumer I look at taxes from that point of view. Businesses have a different perspective out of necessity. My goal in life is to survive, and be able to pay my way. Businesses are there to make a profit. The two perspectives are diametrically opposing. So, if a company is paying a tax on their profits, that means I am not being taxed (as much) because my income is no match for corporate profits. Think of oil and drugs in today's world. Those industries are making record profits in these days of high inflation. If those business were forced to pay, say, 33% instead of 28% it would be possible to eliminate my paying income taxes at all. It might be true that I would pay a minimum of 5% more for the products and services, but I would not be paying 20% income tax. You can say I am still paying the tax through my purchases, but that means I have a choice of what I buy and how much of it. I don't get that option with the IRS.
I know how you view Hillary Clinton. I also know that she predicted almost everything negative that happened under Trump and a lot of what is going on now. People didn't believe her then, and no Republican acknowledges her insights today. Say what you want about her politics, but she did have knowledge that might have been valuable as leader of this country. I also find it very interesting and revealing that you consider Biden/Soros a disaster but have no problems with Trump/Putin. If you are going to be a gangster, my thinking is that it's better to keep it in the family and not hand it off to some foreigner whose goal is to crush our form of government.
I know how you view Hillary Clinton. I also know that she predicted almost everything negative that happened under Trump and a lot of what is going on now. People didn't believe her then, and no Republican acknowledges her insights today. Say what you want about her politics, but she did have knowledge that might have been valuable as leader of this country. I also find it very interesting and revealing that you consider Biden/Soros a disaster but have no problems with Trump/Putin. If you are going to be a gangster, my thinking is that it's better to keep it in the family and not hand it off to some foreigner whose goal is to crush our form of government.
Re: How To Make Springs
What if you got up to the register with your purchase, and the cashier gave you this option.
Give me one-dollar for the government, or pay five-dollars more for the product. Your choice!
Which of the two would you pick?
You've already stated that you would rather pay the five-dollars, than only be levied one-dollar!
Compare the shape of our country under Trump, vs under Biden!
Nuff said!
Give me one-dollar for the government, or pay five-dollars more for the product. Your choice!
Which of the two would you pick?
You've already stated that you would rather pay the five-dollars, than only be levied one-dollar!
Compare the shape of our country under Trump, vs under Biden!
Nuff said!
Re: How To Make Springs
What I actually said was ... I'd gladly pay 5% more for all the goods and services I consume if I did not have to pay personal income tax.me wrote: It might be true that I would pay a minimum of 5% more for the products and services, but I would not be paying 20% income tax
It's got to be difficult for you to be in the dire financial straits that you are in. It's impossible to say where we would be if Trump were reelected in 2020, but my instincts suggest you would not be better off. I am keeping up with current events today as I did back then, and I think the 7 million popular votes that gave us the current president were well made.
Re: How To Make Springs
I don't thing the feds even make money on our income taxes, it all goes to pay for those handling the IRS offices and staff. Is there any left over after that? Doesn't appear so. They could abolish the federal income tax and probably come out ahead.
Personally, I don't think any business should pay federal or state income taxes. The taxes they pay on their land and building is for covering necessary services and a few other things. Which in the end is still paid for by the people buying their products.
You must have blinders on if you don't see all the damage the Biden/Obama/Soro's team has done to this country.
Personally, I don't think any business should pay federal or state income taxes. The taxes they pay on their land and building is for covering necessary services and a few other things. Which in the end is still paid for by the people buying their products.
You must have blinders on if you don't see all the damage the Biden/Obama/Soro's team has done to this country.
Re: How To Make Springs
Income taxes from all sources gave the federal government about $1.3 trillion in 2021. That will give you some idea about how trivial income taxes are in the overall scheme of things. Other taxes bring in the greater amount of revenue, but as the increasing national debt will attest to, even that is not enough. By far the largest percentage of money acquired by the government comes from selling bonds, that is to say borrowing money. As far as income is concerned individual states have the same problem. There is less borrowing on the state level because a lot of them must operate on a balanced budget by law. There are exceptions such as when they built the Illinois Tollway system, but that was justified by the system being projected to pay back those loans on its own. Good theory but never really worked perfectly. They had to sell more bonds to keep it solvent.
You and I probably never will see eye to eye on politics, and that's not such a bad thing. It's part of what makes us interesting to each other. I do not see all the news that you see because we both have different sources for such things. You have mentioned some of the places you get your news from and I posted a partial list of my news sources from Twitter. The big difference that I noted was in the variety of our sources. Yours are pretty much filtered to present a single point of view. I am not without bias, but my source list is not heavily weighted in one direction or another. You could argue that neither of our lists of sources material is relevant given the real life situations we endure every day of our lives. The news could be good as it gets, but when you don't have a way to pay your bills or buy your meds, that cannot result in a positive attitude about the current administration. Obviously the POTUS doesn't have any direct control over our daily affairs. Much of that is due to decisions we make, or to put it another way many things we bring upon ourselves.
<editorial>
Regarding Trump the perennial question is, "can a bad guy do good things?" There is little doubt about Trump's integrity. He has quite a few patrons but even his business peers have no respect for the man. He surely knows how to run a business in spite of all the bankruptcies attributed to him. Bringing some of that questionable business acumen to the office of the president of the United States has in fact benefited many business people. I too have benefited from his manipulation of the stock market. Some folks see that as a needed change. Others see it as a disaster in that it is contrary to the principles upon which this country has prospered for 240+ years. Thus, it's not hard for me to understand why you would favor Trumpism and not see the more constructive approach taken by the current POTUS.
The thing that bothers me the most, and which is quite frightening, is the phenomena called cognitive dissonance. That describes the inability, neigh the unwillingness, to be open to any line of thought outside of your own. The Trump cult has achieved this state of mind with millions of people, which is testimony showing his ability to manipulate his audience. He can be congratulated for that ability. Unfortunately the motives behind his manipulations are not altruistic.
If our country is going through difficult times today, it's largely the result of certain political parties asserting their cognitive dissonance and thus circumventing the normal checks and balance process built into the governing system. Colloquially that is called "owning" the opposition. It's a shame that an entire political party has taken that stance and has abandoned it's original purpose of conservatively representing the people who elected them. You might not favor what Joe Biden is trying to do, and that is understandable, but he is not hell bent on destroying the current system as would Trump do. I may be wearing blinders, but I can see the influence of Trump upon your stated values.
</editorial>
You and I probably never will see eye to eye on politics, and that's not such a bad thing. It's part of what makes us interesting to each other. I do not see all the news that you see because we both have different sources for such things. You have mentioned some of the places you get your news from and I posted a partial list of my news sources from Twitter. The big difference that I noted was in the variety of our sources. Yours are pretty much filtered to present a single point of view. I am not without bias, but my source list is not heavily weighted in one direction or another. You could argue that neither of our lists of sources material is relevant given the real life situations we endure every day of our lives. The news could be good as it gets, but when you don't have a way to pay your bills or buy your meds, that cannot result in a positive attitude about the current administration. Obviously the POTUS doesn't have any direct control over our daily affairs. Much of that is due to decisions we make, or to put it another way many things we bring upon ourselves.
<editorial>
Regarding Trump the perennial question is, "can a bad guy do good things?" There is little doubt about Trump's integrity. He has quite a few patrons but even his business peers have no respect for the man. He surely knows how to run a business in spite of all the bankruptcies attributed to him. Bringing some of that questionable business acumen to the office of the president of the United States has in fact benefited many business people. I too have benefited from his manipulation of the stock market. Some folks see that as a needed change. Others see it as a disaster in that it is contrary to the principles upon which this country has prospered for 240+ years. Thus, it's not hard for me to understand why you would favor Trumpism and not see the more constructive approach taken by the current POTUS.
The thing that bothers me the most, and which is quite frightening, is the phenomena called cognitive dissonance. That describes the inability, neigh the unwillingness, to be open to any line of thought outside of your own. The Trump cult has achieved this state of mind with millions of people, which is testimony showing his ability to manipulate his audience. He can be congratulated for that ability. Unfortunately the motives behind his manipulations are not altruistic.
If our country is going through difficult times today, it's largely the result of certain political parties asserting their cognitive dissonance and thus circumventing the normal checks and balance process built into the governing system. Colloquially that is called "owning" the opposition. It's a shame that an entire political party has taken that stance and has abandoned it's original purpose of conservatively representing the people who elected them. You might not favor what Joe Biden is trying to do, and that is understandable, but he is not hell bent on destroying the current system as would Trump do. I may be wearing blinders, but I can see the influence of Trump upon your stated values.
</editorial>
Re: How To Make Springs
From its inception, and up until the time it became a 4th class city and taken over by outsiders.
Des Peres never collected one single dime in taxes from the residents.
They got their money for the combined police/fire division back from the county who we did pay taxes to.
Grupp's Tavern was used as city hall up until the time they separated the police from the fire department.
When the federal government started collecting taxes on sales, this is when Mills came about.
At first they were metal, and then they switched to plastic for the 5 mill and 10 mill taxes.
Hard to believe, the taxes at first were 1/10th of a cent per dollar on a retail sale, to the federal government.
And about this time, the city got in on the act, when the plastic mills came out. The city got 1 mill and now the feds 5 mills.
Which of course in a few years jumped to 10 mills. I don't know what happened after that, because the feds no longer collected tax on retail sales. Probably because Income Tax was introduced.
What I see with the current administration is Runaway Inflation. Taking away our Independence on Local Oil and going back to buying it from OPEC. Making farming no longer profitable for farmers, who are cutting back due to the high cost of fuels. People are seriously hurting under the current administration! We are quickly becoming no better than a third-world country.
I don't have the time, nor the inclination to make a list of all the things Obama and Biden have done against our country, so you can compare it to all the good things Trump did while he was in office.
There was a time when it really didn't matter which party was in control, because they all worked together for the good of the country, and of course for the good of their own pocketbooks as well. That part will never change. But those who have been in politics their entire lives, some over 50 years, living the good life, have NO IDEA what being an American means!
This is one reason I'm all for Term Limits to get the PORK FAT out of office!
Des Peres never collected one single dime in taxes from the residents.
They got their money for the combined police/fire division back from the county who we did pay taxes to.
Grupp's Tavern was used as city hall up until the time they separated the police from the fire department.
When the federal government started collecting taxes on sales, this is when Mills came about.
At first they were metal, and then they switched to plastic for the 5 mill and 10 mill taxes.
Hard to believe, the taxes at first were 1/10th of a cent per dollar on a retail sale, to the federal government.
And about this time, the city got in on the act, when the plastic mills came out. The city got 1 mill and now the feds 5 mills.
Which of course in a few years jumped to 10 mills. I don't know what happened after that, because the feds no longer collected tax on retail sales. Probably because Income Tax was introduced.
What I see with the current administration is Runaway Inflation. Taking away our Independence on Local Oil and going back to buying it from OPEC. Making farming no longer profitable for farmers, who are cutting back due to the high cost of fuels. People are seriously hurting under the current administration! We are quickly becoming no better than a third-world country.
I don't have the time, nor the inclination to make a list of all the things Obama and Biden have done against our country, so you can compare it to all the good things Trump did while he was in office.
There was a time when it really didn't matter which party was in control, because they all worked together for the good of the country, and of course for the good of their own pocketbooks as well. That part will never change. But those who have been in politics their entire lives, some over 50 years, living the good life, have NO IDEA what being an American means!
This is one reason I'm all for Term Limits to get the PORK FAT out of office!
Re: How To Make Springs
Your history of Des Peres is reminiscent of something I talked about a while ago regarding the European Union. Each country in Europe has a history similar to Des Peres in that they all started out as kingdoms which were entities onto themselves. Royalty, I might note, were not much better than those political figures today who are out of touch with the people under their tutelage. In fact this country exists only because some disgruntled citizens got fed up with their kings. Eventually it all worked out and the royal families of Europe today are mere formalities who once owned the land upon which their countries were built. There are dozens of sovereign nations composing Europe and in a way they achieved a form of home rule before the European Union became a reality. The Union arose out of the Common Market and that arose out of the flaws built into dozens of sovereign countries acting unilaterally in a global society. Any given country could not survive on it's own and thus the need for a united economic block arose. That is when the common interests of all those countries evolved into the idea of a United States of Europe. Well, that didn't go over any better than the United States of America. All those self-ruled states not only had sovereignty but they also had common needs beyond their own abilities to achieve them. So the EU took over Europe and the Federal Government took over the United States in order to preserve and promote their common needs. At that point taxes to pay for all this unity became an issue.
I don't have roots in Des Peres and can only comment on what I see today. It's s great city that is prospering and benefiting from being part of a greater whole, i.e., St Louis County, the state of Missouri, and the federal republic of America. The Des Peres of your childhood could not exist in today's world, at least not in it's present location. Perhaps in the middle of Montana where there would be freedom from outsider influences because there are no outsiders in Montana, Des Peres could revert back to what it was in its earlier days. Reality, however, places it where it is and consequently the city that once was a happy family onto itself must now deal with a million other residents of St Louis County. A few dozen families could possibly get along well, but put them in the middle of a million other folks and you see what Des Peres is today.
My objections to Donald Trump are based on his beliefs that democracy is a failed system of corrupt elitists. It's not just political theory to him. He took advantage of the office of President of the United States and all it's inherent powers to change the current system of democratic rule. Change isn't always a bad thing, and I have repeated that idea many times in these forums. Unfortunately what Donald Trump was trying to accomplish undermines the very roots of our Constitution. Even that on its own could be a needed evolution into something better, but that isn't what Donald Trump has in mind. The changes he tried to make were designed to benefit him personally and disregard the wants and needs of the other 360 million people who live here. As I pointed out in my previous reply, Trump was very good at making changes of that magnitude and convincing others they should support him. I don't know about you, but I am not looking forward to living under a dictatorship. That is exactly what Donald Trump's goal in life is at this time.
Your disappointment with the current affairs regarding inflation, energy production, and agriculture is valid. None of those things are new or exclusive to the Biden administration and i know you are old enough and informed enough to know better. I suspect my understanding of each of those issues is not the same as yours, but it is clearly evident from where your comments originate. All of those things are talking points not only from the Trump camp but also from the entire Republican party. They contain facts grossly and deliberately distorted with only one purpose in mind. That is, to make the current administration look bad. That's not a very sophisticated political ploy. It's been going on for generations. The concern I have is the misinformation and outright lies behind those talking points. Too many people are falling for the propaganda hook, line, and sinker.
I don't have roots in Des Peres and can only comment on what I see today. It's s great city that is prospering and benefiting from being part of a greater whole, i.e., St Louis County, the state of Missouri, and the federal republic of America. The Des Peres of your childhood could not exist in today's world, at least not in it's present location. Perhaps in the middle of Montana where there would be freedom from outsider influences because there are no outsiders in Montana, Des Peres could revert back to what it was in its earlier days. Reality, however, places it where it is and consequently the city that once was a happy family onto itself must now deal with a million other residents of St Louis County. A few dozen families could possibly get along well, but put them in the middle of a million other folks and you see what Des Peres is today.
My objections to Donald Trump are based on his beliefs that democracy is a failed system of corrupt elitists. It's not just political theory to him. He took advantage of the office of President of the United States and all it's inherent powers to change the current system of democratic rule. Change isn't always a bad thing, and I have repeated that idea many times in these forums. Unfortunately what Donald Trump was trying to accomplish undermines the very roots of our Constitution. Even that on its own could be a needed evolution into something better, but that isn't what Donald Trump has in mind. The changes he tried to make were designed to benefit him personally and disregard the wants and needs of the other 360 million people who live here. As I pointed out in my previous reply, Trump was very good at making changes of that magnitude and convincing others they should support him. I don't know about you, but I am not looking forward to living under a dictatorship. That is exactly what Donald Trump's goal in life is at this time.
Your disappointment with the current affairs regarding inflation, energy production, and agriculture is valid. None of those things are new or exclusive to the Biden administration and i know you are old enough and informed enough to know better. I suspect my understanding of each of those issues is not the same as yours, but it is clearly evident from where your comments originate. All of those things are talking points not only from the Trump camp but also from the entire Republican party. They contain facts grossly and deliberately distorted with only one purpose in mind. That is, to make the current administration look bad. That's not a very sophisticated political ploy. It's been going on for generations. The concern I have is the misinformation and outright lies behind those talking points. Too many people are falling for the propaganda hook, line, and sinker.
Re: How To Make Springs
The long history of how the European countries evolved has always been an interest of mine, despite how barbaric they were during the reign of kings.
Hmm, Des Peres was built on dealing with outside cities, namely the City of St. Louis for the sale and procurement of goods.
It takes a much larger city to supply the needs of smaller cities, during the era in which I was raised.
But prior to that, each family had to be more or less self-sustaining. Especially those who migrated west, where there was nothing other than what they brought with them and set up a homestead. Several were tradesmen who made the things folks needed and would travel around a 50 mile or more radius to hawk their wares. Barrels, Wagons, Foodstuffs, Clothing, etc.
And this is how the towns developed and grew. Various stores would open, often starting with a Saloon and a Mercantile Store.
As the cities grew larger, then more and more problems arose, and a means to handle those problems, but then technology took off in leaps and bounds giving people the ability to travel far and wide, and this too created more problems and even more crime. And here we are! The time period from 1960 to today, is just as far as it is from 1910 to 2020. And look how technology has boomed since the 1960s.
I don't agree with your view of Donald Trump.
Don't forget, my entire family and all of my relatives and about 90% of the people I knew growing up were all Democrats.
What do you think it is about the Democratic party that has caused at least 95% of them to change political sides over the past decade or two?
Hmm, Des Peres was built on dealing with outside cities, namely the City of St. Louis for the sale and procurement of goods.
It takes a much larger city to supply the needs of smaller cities, during the era in which I was raised.
But prior to that, each family had to be more or less self-sustaining. Especially those who migrated west, where there was nothing other than what they brought with them and set up a homestead. Several were tradesmen who made the things folks needed and would travel around a 50 mile or more radius to hawk their wares. Barrels, Wagons, Foodstuffs, Clothing, etc.
And this is how the towns developed and grew. Various stores would open, often starting with a Saloon and a Mercantile Store.
As the cities grew larger, then more and more problems arose, and a means to handle those problems, but then technology took off in leaps and bounds giving people the ability to travel far and wide, and this too created more problems and even more crime. And here we are! The time period from 1960 to today, is just as far as it is from 1910 to 2020. And look how technology has boomed since the 1960s.
I don't agree with your view of Donald Trump.
Don't forget, my entire family and all of my relatives and about 90% of the people I knew growing up were all Democrats.
What do you think it is about the Democratic party that has caused at least 95% of them to change political sides over the past decade or two?
Re: How To Make Springs
I can't answer your question regarding your family's political affiliations. I am fairly certain they did what most everybody else does, which is align with people that have similar thoughts and ideas. Until the Trump Era I don't think either of the major political parties changed much in terms of their methods of operation. Thus I can only suppose your family values changed for internal reasons unknowable to me. I have no problem with change, per se. I often admonish people for not being able to adapt or make changes necessary for progress. Donald Trump came to power because he espoused changes that a lot of his followers thought were necessary. The disagreements you and I have about that are not with the changes themselves but the motivations behind them. One clue about those motives is in the type of people he befriended and looked to for advice. Most of them are under indictment today or were pardoned by him while president. Trump's belief in the failed democracy theory shows clearly in his patronage of people like Kim Jong-un and Vladimir Putin. Those people are not promoters of the kind of democracy you and I grew up with.
In a vaguely related story I ran across yesterday I read of an example showing how wrong is the assumption that farmers are being abused, a point you made about how bad things are in America. Quite by accident I found an article describing caves in this state of Missouri which contain cheese held in reserve by the government. 1.5 BILLION pounds of cheese is buried beneath Missouri soil. It turns out that the government owns approximately 400 million pounds of it while private industry owns the rest. The reason all that cheese became the foundation of this state is due to subsidies that the government has, and still is, provided to farmers. It's called price support which is a free hand out to dairy farmers that can't sell all their products at market price. So, the federal government stepped in and guaranteed to buy it at a predetermined price. Well, the government can't get rid of the milk or the cheese either. So they are storing in right here in the Show Me state. This is just one example. I don't know where the lies about lack of government support for farmers originate, but most of those farming states are red.
Des Peres was not taken over by the government and tossed down the path to Hell as a result. It was and is a great place to live and because of that the city grew and prospered. Cities have needs you don't see in small towns and when Des Peres changed, so did it's needs. Thus home rule became obsolete by attrition.
In a vaguely related story I ran across yesterday I read of an example showing how wrong is the assumption that farmers are being abused, a point you made about how bad things are in America. Quite by accident I found an article describing caves in this state of Missouri which contain cheese held in reserve by the government. 1.5 BILLION pounds of cheese is buried beneath Missouri soil. It turns out that the government owns approximately 400 million pounds of it while private industry owns the rest. The reason all that cheese became the foundation of this state is due to subsidies that the government has, and still is, provided to farmers. It's called price support which is a free hand out to dairy farmers that can't sell all their products at market price. So, the federal government stepped in and guaranteed to buy it at a predetermined price. Well, the government can't get rid of the milk or the cheese either. So they are storing in right here in the Show Me state. This is just one example. I don't know where the lies about lack of government support for farmers originate, but most of those farming states are red.
Des Peres was not taken over by the government and tossed down the path to Hell as a result. It was and is a great place to live and because of that the city grew and prospered. Cities have needs you don't see in small towns and when Des Peres changed, so did it's needs. Thus home rule became obsolete by attrition.
Re: How To Make Springs
It's not the Home Rule that was the problem, it ran its course and needed changed.
The problem is with the now greedy government and the changes they made.
Their goal was to drive out the original businesses that made Des Peres what it was, and stick in large banks and office buildings. Anything that would gain them more revenue. Everything they did after taking over revolved around making money for the poly-TICK-ians.
The government often pays farmers to plow under their crops to keep the demand and prices high.
But right now, they are doing more to hurt the farmers than at any time in history.
They never paid us one thin dime, but what they did do was pass law after law that each one cost us big bucks.
We had large coal fired boilers and a 100 foot tall Weiderholt chimney, we used for well over 50 years.
Then they came in and made us install expensive scrubbers in the chimney, which required cleaning every two weeks also a huge expense because they were in the top of the chimney.
Then they forced us to change to Oil, which meant we had to buy new boilers.
So we built a new boiler room building, installed the oil tanks, and got it going.
They fined us a huge amount each winter when we had to start up the boilers, because they smoked right as they were turned on. Then you guessed it, we had to install catalytic style reburners on the new chimney for the new boilers. These were not like the catalytic converters on cars, they were a ceramic honeycomb in the chimney that used propane to heat them up to glowing orange before we fired up the boilers.
That wasn't good enough for them, so they made us convert to Natural Gas, another very expensive proposition. And we could be Shut-Off if Natural Gas demand was high and supplies low. At least this time, other than have large gas pipes brought in, and having to change out the burner elements in the boilers, they left us alone for a while.
Once they got on the energy conservation kick, we knew it was time to sell out our property.
Even though we had our greenhouses updated using lower cost methods, mainly by adding plastic film bubbles over the greenhouses, and another layer of film inside to act as insulation. We still had to vent the greenhouses or the plants would die. We also now had to pump in CO2 into all of our greenhouses, since we could not get enough from outside in the winter months. Every new law they passed cost us a lot of money and a lot of grief. The City of Flowers, became the City of Bankers.
The problem is with the now greedy government and the changes they made.
Their goal was to drive out the original businesses that made Des Peres what it was, and stick in large banks and office buildings. Anything that would gain them more revenue. Everything they did after taking over revolved around making money for the poly-TICK-ians.
The government often pays farmers to plow under their crops to keep the demand and prices high.
But right now, they are doing more to hurt the farmers than at any time in history.
They never paid us one thin dime, but what they did do was pass law after law that each one cost us big bucks.
We had large coal fired boilers and a 100 foot tall Weiderholt chimney, we used for well over 50 years.
Then they came in and made us install expensive scrubbers in the chimney, which required cleaning every two weeks also a huge expense because they were in the top of the chimney.
Then they forced us to change to Oil, which meant we had to buy new boilers.
So we built a new boiler room building, installed the oil tanks, and got it going.
They fined us a huge amount each winter when we had to start up the boilers, because they smoked right as they were turned on. Then you guessed it, we had to install catalytic style reburners on the new chimney for the new boilers. These were not like the catalytic converters on cars, they were a ceramic honeycomb in the chimney that used propane to heat them up to glowing orange before we fired up the boilers.
That wasn't good enough for them, so they made us convert to Natural Gas, another very expensive proposition. And we could be Shut-Off if Natural Gas demand was high and supplies low. At least this time, other than have large gas pipes brought in, and having to change out the burner elements in the boilers, they left us alone for a while.
Once they got on the energy conservation kick, we knew it was time to sell out our property.
Even though we had our greenhouses updated using lower cost methods, mainly by adding plastic film bubbles over the greenhouses, and another layer of film inside to act as insulation. We still had to vent the greenhouses or the plants would die. We also now had to pump in CO2 into all of our greenhouses, since we could not get enough from outside in the winter months. Every new law they passed cost us a lot of money and a lot of grief. The City of Flowers, became the City of Bankers.
Re: How To Make Springs
We agree that nothing is free. Going from there I could ask what are you willing to pay for clean air to breathe? It reads like your description of what happened to the floral business is the price. I don't suppose it matters that every other industry in the country suffers from the same kind of malady. But, even lacking in historical knowledge regarding Des Peres I feel confident in saying the anti-pollution laws were not designed to rid your town of its founding businesses. And, if the people in town needed banks more than they needed flowers, there isn't much I can say about that either. I don't know what you could have done to preserve the family business. Even if I did know it wouldn't matter now anyway. Laws are enacted and you need to adjust operations to stay compliant. That's just a fact of business life here in America.
My point about farm subsidies is that they have been around ever since I can remember. They have always been controversial too. Whatever the situation is today regarding farmer support, I can tell you that it is not something the current administration invented. More likely they inherited the condition from the previous administration which inherited it from their predecessors, ad infinitum. Like the flower business, small time farming has passed its peak. The ideal would be for no subsidies to be granted and to allow farming to run its natural course. You probably would be correct to say all the small farms would disappear and be replaced by agricultural conglomerates. That's definitely a drawback for the little guy, but nobody would be starving because of it.
My point about farm subsidies is that they have been around ever since I can remember. They have always been controversial too. Whatever the situation is today regarding farmer support, I can tell you that it is not something the current administration invented. More likely they inherited the condition from the previous administration which inherited it from their predecessors, ad infinitum. Like the flower business, small time farming has passed its peak. The ideal would be for no subsidies to be granted and to allow farming to run its natural course. You probably would be correct to say all the small farms would disappear and be replaced by agricultural conglomerates. That's definitely a drawback for the little guy, but nobody would be starving because of it.