At this moment in time I think you are correct to say 120 is about the oldest we can expect a human to live. The process of aging, among other things, has to do with the cells in the body not being able to eliminate the waste products they contain. I've read a few articles where some key discoveries have been made that would slow down that deterioration. Even so the most optimistic researcher figures that would extend life expectancy to age 140 at best.
One of the more promising lines of research have to do with stem cell research, which has been banned or unfunded in many places. These cells are the basis upon which all other body cells are formed. Thus it is theoretically possible to grow a liver from a stem cell, for example. I don't know about the rejection rate but it would be a brand new organ that has not lived in somebody else's body for a number of years. And, if we could just grow organs on demand, then there would be no waiting list for people who need transplants. I suppose if you could replace enough organs you would be able to extend the life cycle that way. I'm not sure it would be worth going through all that surgery, however.
Us retired people often suffer from something similar to what you are going through with loss of function. One day you are a productive employee at the height of your career and accomplishments, and then the next day you are retired and no longer are needed. By anyone. For any reason. In your case there are certain physical constraints limiting your activities. Many retirees are perfectly able to continue on with what they were doing but become depressed because they are no longer allowed to continue in their previous role. I'm not sure which situation is worse.
Storms roaming around.
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Re: Storms roaming around.
In a way we are like an old car that is rusting away, eventually both the frame and body are no longer worth fixing, hi hi.
When we had our florist, we had folks who came to work for us in their early teens, and were still working for us in there 70s and 80s. We may have changed what they used to do, to something they could still do easily, but still needed done to keep the place rolling along as it should. Ironically, a couple of those who were working in the cut flower shop, even though their spouse may have got fairly rich at their jobs or businesses, they decided to stay on rather than sit at home with nothing to do.
Starting around 1974 or 75, we started having Old Floriculture Day, where those who did retire would all come to meet their long-time customers over in the main greenhouse sales area. There were usually around 20 old former employees who would be sitting around to greet the customers, and some were even working in the sales house doing what they always did if they could.
By around 1982 or 83 there were not many of them left, and only about 4 or 5 showed up. They all said they probably could not make it next year, so they ended that old reunion day.
Those who once worked in the cut flower shop hung around in there, but there were only like 3 or 4 who ever retired from our department who were still able to get out. But they were glad to see the many old timers who were still working there.
Art Koewing worked up until the day he had a stroke, and died a few days later at the age of 87.
Florence Trog, who started working when she was 16, was still there the day we closed in 1984, she was 83 I think.
We had a couple of others who were in their upper 70s when we closed who started with us before they turned 20.
Now out in the greenhouses, we did have a fairly high turnover as folks learned the ropes and set out to open their own greenhouses. Some did well, some not so well. Many others just took other types of jobs they liked better, and probably not as hard of work. One guy who worked for us for like 10 years, opened a small used car dealership, and grew that until he became a new car dealership. As time goes on I may remember what some of the others did when they moved on, but only because they still came back to visit quite often.
When we had our florist, we had folks who came to work for us in their early teens, and were still working for us in there 70s and 80s. We may have changed what they used to do, to something they could still do easily, but still needed done to keep the place rolling along as it should. Ironically, a couple of those who were working in the cut flower shop, even though their spouse may have got fairly rich at their jobs or businesses, they decided to stay on rather than sit at home with nothing to do.
Starting around 1974 or 75, we started having Old Floriculture Day, where those who did retire would all come to meet their long-time customers over in the main greenhouse sales area. There were usually around 20 old former employees who would be sitting around to greet the customers, and some were even working in the sales house doing what they always did if they could.
By around 1982 or 83 there were not many of them left, and only about 4 or 5 showed up. They all said they probably could not make it next year, so they ended that old reunion day.
Those who once worked in the cut flower shop hung around in there, but there were only like 3 or 4 who ever retired from our department who were still able to get out. But they were glad to see the many old timers who were still working there.
Art Koewing worked up until the day he had a stroke, and died a few days later at the age of 87.
Florence Trog, who started working when she was 16, was still there the day we closed in 1984, she was 83 I think.
We had a couple of others who were in their upper 70s when we closed who started with us before they turned 20.
Now out in the greenhouses, we did have a fairly high turnover as folks learned the ropes and set out to open their own greenhouses. Some did well, some not so well. Many others just took other types of jobs they liked better, and probably not as hard of work. One guy who worked for us for like 10 years, opened a small used car dealership, and grew that until he became a new car dealership. As time goes on I may remember what some of the others did when they moved on, but only because they still came back to visit quite often.
Re: Storms roaming around.
It seems as if you ran a family style business right up to the day you closed shop. It strikes me as amazing that you could do that, but then the business world was a bit different 50 years ago. When I was hired in Motorola was run as a family business too. That atmosphere permeated the factory and the general working conditions for many years. I think Motorola was a pioneer in profit sharing, for example. Well the founder of the company died and the business was passed down to his kids. That second generation did a hella job of maintaining what the founder established. His kid, the third generation, only had an interest in the business because of the 10 million shares of stock the family owned. His heart was elsewhere. However, to be fair that third generation dude ruled when cell phones hit the technology streets. He enthusiastically helped move the development of such right along and Motorola became wildly successful. It turns out that was its downfall. Now that it was successful as success can be, folks outside the family became interested. The Koch's Investment companies in particular started buying stock like crazy and was forcing it's will upon some of the business decisions. Well, the disinterested kid and the Wall Street Moguls took away any semblance of family atmosphere that was left after all that success and growth.
It could be said that your floral business closed its doors on a very positive note. A lot of people benefited from your enterprise, and some of those old timers gladly went down with the ship. At Motorola those old timers were a liability they didn't want to pay for. Then, too, Motorola was publicly owned whereas I don't believe your business was. I'd guess that nearly all your employees ended their careers with fond memories of the company they worked for. I did well at Motorola, but the memories are not all that fond.
It could be said that your floral business closed its doors on a very positive note. A lot of people benefited from your enterprise, and some of those old timers gladly went down with the ship. At Motorola those old timers were a liability they didn't want to pay for. Then, too, Motorola was publicly owned whereas I don't believe your business was. I'd guess that nearly all your employees ended their careers with fond memories of the company they worked for. I did well at Motorola, but the memories are not all that fond.
Re: Storms roaming around.
Yes Sir, you see the BIG PICTURE alright!
All of us kids that were supposed to take over the florist had big ideas on how to expand and grow with flower shops all over the county, some within existing grocery stores too, and four major growing areas for plants of about 20 acres each to start.
If you look at the many mom n pop grocery stores from the 40's and 50's, you'll see as they passed down from one generation to another, changes were made to cut costs and service more clients.
Sometimes they would merge together to grow bigger faster, like when Rapp and Bettendorf's merged to become Bettendorf/Rapp Supermarket. Mr Stahl didn't like that idea, so his business eventually got ate up. While Mr. Janson, although still a single store, he got in with IGA and built a new larger store, Janson's IGA Foodliner.
Dierbergs had one little general store up in Creve Coeur, Schnucks had one store elsewhere.
When the next generation of kids took over, they began buying up what Rapp stores still remained, and then bought out all the Bettendorf/Rapps supermarkets. Back home we called them Schnuckendors for a long time, hi hi.
Each one of the Dierbergs kids got a store of their own, but put their heads and their money together and started building stores slightly larger than Schnucks was building. Both of them grew like wildfire, then Schnucks more or less stopped expanding which left the field open for Dierbergs.
Mr Stahl went to work for Schnucks for a short time before he retired, and the Schinzing family kept their little store long after Schnucks dominated the area around us, until they decided to just shut down and retire. Their land and buildings was worth a fortune so they retired with a healthy amount of money.
But as you noted. Once mom n pop passed the stores to the kids, they had bigger and better ideas, using other peoples money and hiring all the work that needed be done. Then when that generation passed on to their sons, they did so by taking their companies public so they could milk those businesses for every cent they could before retiring, living a lavish lifestyle because of it.
But in the end, it did not leave a legacy to pass on to their kids, heck they had enough money the kids could do what they wanted.
Our business, even though grandpa made it grow tremendously while alive, when his sons took over, they just kept everything the same. If it wasn't the way grandpa did it, we don't do it. Which was their major downfall. All the kids just worked the business as a job, with no interest in growth, because then the work would be harder for them, and more complicated.
While my generation knew about ways to get the work done more efficiently, but it was never passed to us to take over, despite all the wonderful plans we had made.
Instead, a company like H. J. Hymos followed similar plans to what we made and grew so large they provide all the plants for nearly every major outlet in the area.
But we could see in a nutshell why grandpa's sons, my parents and uncles, hit a stalemate.
Grandpa treated each plant like it was gold. Way to much attention to a plant not doing so good.
My parents generation did almost the same thing, but had a line they drew on what to save and what to toss.
After my generation became most active in the business, we never looked at individual plants.
We looked at growing space, and the yield from that space, over a fixed amount of time.
We expected 7 to 10% of a crop to not be salable and should go straight to the dumpster, rather than tying up growing space hoping they will get better.
Not bragging, just being honest. After dad had a heart attack and I quit my drafting job to come take over for him while he recovered some. We went through two major holidays, both of which we took more orders than in the history of the company, and the employees all got to work closer to normal hours with some overtime, not the 16 hour shifts they used to have to work. Even so, we paid them a bonus equivalent or better than they would have received working all those extra hours.
Naturally, I was proud of how well everything ran, and how happy all the employees were, plus those record sales figures.
You think dad appreciated it? No, I got a good scolding for not handling things they way they always did. Stop taking orders at 4 pm, no deliveries after 6 pm. I took orders right up until an hour after our normal closing time, and even then, we got the job done earlier and all the drivers back home earlier than ever before.
I do think dad really did like what I did, but he had other brothers to buck against 24/7 who were sticklers about doing things they way their dad did them, with no alterations. But that's the way things were!
All of us kids that were supposed to take over the florist had big ideas on how to expand and grow with flower shops all over the county, some within existing grocery stores too, and four major growing areas for plants of about 20 acres each to start.
If you look at the many mom n pop grocery stores from the 40's and 50's, you'll see as they passed down from one generation to another, changes were made to cut costs and service more clients.
Sometimes they would merge together to grow bigger faster, like when Rapp and Bettendorf's merged to become Bettendorf/Rapp Supermarket. Mr Stahl didn't like that idea, so his business eventually got ate up. While Mr. Janson, although still a single store, he got in with IGA and built a new larger store, Janson's IGA Foodliner.
Dierbergs had one little general store up in Creve Coeur, Schnucks had one store elsewhere.
When the next generation of kids took over, they began buying up what Rapp stores still remained, and then bought out all the Bettendorf/Rapps supermarkets. Back home we called them Schnuckendors for a long time, hi hi.
Each one of the Dierbergs kids got a store of their own, but put their heads and their money together and started building stores slightly larger than Schnucks was building. Both of them grew like wildfire, then Schnucks more or less stopped expanding which left the field open for Dierbergs.
Mr Stahl went to work for Schnucks for a short time before he retired, and the Schinzing family kept their little store long after Schnucks dominated the area around us, until they decided to just shut down and retire. Their land and buildings was worth a fortune so they retired with a healthy amount of money.
But as you noted. Once mom n pop passed the stores to the kids, they had bigger and better ideas, using other peoples money and hiring all the work that needed be done. Then when that generation passed on to their sons, they did so by taking their companies public so they could milk those businesses for every cent they could before retiring, living a lavish lifestyle because of it.
But in the end, it did not leave a legacy to pass on to their kids, heck they had enough money the kids could do what they wanted.
Our business, even though grandpa made it grow tremendously while alive, when his sons took over, they just kept everything the same. If it wasn't the way grandpa did it, we don't do it. Which was their major downfall. All the kids just worked the business as a job, with no interest in growth, because then the work would be harder for them, and more complicated.
While my generation knew about ways to get the work done more efficiently, but it was never passed to us to take over, despite all the wonderful plans we had made.
Instead, a company like H. J. Hymos followed similar plans to what we made and grew so large they provide all the plants for nearly every major outlet in the area.
But we could see in a nutshell why grandpa's sons, my parents and uncles, hit a stalemate.
Grandpa treated each plant like it was gold. Way to much attention to a plant not doing so good.
My parents generation did almost the same thing, but had a line they drew on what to save and what to toss.
After my generation became most active in the business, we never looked at individual plants.
We looked at growing space, and the yield from that space, over a fixed amount of time.
We expected 7 to 10% of a crop to not be salable and should go straight to the dumpster, rather than tying up growing space hoping they will get better.
Not bragging, just being honest. After dad had a heart attack and I quit my drafting job to come take over for him while he recovered some. We went through two major holidays, both of which we took more orders than in the history of the company, and the employees all got to work closer to normal hours with some overtime, not the 16 hour shifts they used to have to work. Even so, we paid them a bonus equivalent or better than they would have received working all those extra hours.
Naturally, I was proud of how well everything ran, and how happy all the employees were, plus those record sales figures.
You think dad appreciated it? No, I got a good scolding for not handling things they way they always did. Stop taking orders at 4 pm, no deliveries after 6 pm. I took orders right up until an hour after our normal closing time, and even then, we got the job done earlier and all the drivers back home earlier than ever before.
I do think dad really did like what I did, but he had other brothers to buck against 24/7 who were sticklers about doing things they way their dad did them, with no alterations. But that's the way things were!
Re: Storms roaming around.
I've witnessed many times the same story you tell. Motorola is not the only big company to go through the cycle. For good or for bad, places like Apple Computer and Microsoft changed drastically when the founders left the company. When you think about it the company is an extension of the person (or people) who create it. Things are done just like grandpa because grandpa defines what the company is like. His personal touch is what made the business successful. It would not matter who replaced grandpa. The business would have changed regardless to suit the ways and means of the new management. When a company goes public it gets even more complicated because the shareholders have a say and they must be satisfied too.
Back in your grandpa's days (and mine too for that matter) the ethics and generally accepted business practices where quite different that those of later generations. It was more than the mechanics of how to do things. The philosophy and the goals of businesses evolve just as do the morals and ethics of the society in which they operate. Thus the emphasis went from customer satisfaction using the highest quality materials to the size of the bottom line. These days one's success is often measured by the number of dollars they can accumulate, and what better way is there to accumulate assets than to run your own business? Thus it's not hard to imagine why the kids running the family business change the focus.
Another big difference between then and now is that the mom and pop stores were providing for the needs of their customers. Today there are many many ways to satisfy one's needs. Competition drives a business to success while the needs of their customers are usually an afterthought if it is given consideration at all. Mom and Pop shops were doomed to extinction because they could not compete with places that had more resources to put into the business. The small shops might have had better quality products and a genuine concern for their customers, but they could not afford to pay the rent unless they charged more than the customers were willing to pay. It's sad to see those old timers go, but they are the ones who worked hard and paved the way for their successors. I can't blame big business for doing what it does. They can only survive because their customers agree with what they are doing and are willing to pay the price. Businesses have changed, but they changed because the needs of society changed first.
Back in your grandpa's days (and mine too for that matter) the ethics and generally accepted business practices where quite different that those of later generations. It was more than the mechanics of how to do things. The philosophy and the goals of businesses evolve just as do the morals and ethics of the society in which they operate. Thus the emphasis went from customer satisfaction using the highest quality materials to the size of the bottom line. These days one's success is often measured by the number of dollars they can accumulate, and what better way is there to accumulate assets than to run your own business? Thus it's not hard to imagine why the kids running the family business change the focus.
Another big difference between then and now is that the mom and pop stores were providing for the needs of their customers. Today there are many many ways to satisfy one's needs. Competition drives a business to success while the needs of their customers are usually an afterthought if it is given consideration at all. Mom and Pop shops were doomed to extinction because they could not compete with places that had more resources to put into the business. The small shops might have had better quality products and a genuine concern for their customers, but they could not afford to pay the rent unless they charged more than the customers were willing to pay. It's sad to see those old timers go, but they are the ones who worked hard and paved the way for their successors. I can't blame big business for doing what it does. They can only survive because their customers agree with what they are doing and are willing to pay the price. Businesses have changed, but they changed because the needs of society changed first.
Re: Storms roaming around.
All so true Yogi! The times keep changing, and how things are done is changing along with it.
One might ask why we have so many mom n pop stores here in my area that can undersell places like WalMart.
WalMart of course can buy in such massive quantities that they get the best prices. But this doesn't work for many products, especially perishable items.
Most of the mom n pop stores here have joined CoOp's to get their merchandise. And not just one CoOp but several different ones so they have a good assortment of items to sell.
The CoOp's also buy overstock from WalMart's warehouses and other large suppliers.
The regional WalMart warehouse may buy, as an example, 150 pallets of cantaloupes, and send three or four to each store, followed by perhaps 2 more a day later. The rest they sell to a CoOp or two or three. Also to chain stores like Kroger, etc.
WalMart is of course doing it this way to make a profit, and not end up with a loss by having to toss older merchandise.
I studied the supply chain for Arnold's Rye Bread very closely, mainly because I knew they only baked Rye Bread once a week.
Starting with their racking empty, on the day they bake the Rye Bread, that first rack goes to major chain stores like Kroger, but to their warehouse. The second rack goes out to the WalMart local warehouse. Everything brought back as day old, hi hi, from Kroger goes to the CoOp and from their to the smaller chain stores, and what comes back from WalMart to the CoOp goes to the smaller grocers in the area. Everything at the bakery on the other racks goes out to discount stores, who will discard what they don't sell.
I've already went into the other things about Rye Bread, such as the Head End to big stores, the Center to Restaurant Supply, and the smaller Tail end, which goes to the discount stores.
But since the discount stores do get some of their bread from the CoOp, they too can wind up with Head End sized loaves of bread.
Also, a lot of the smaller stores carry the things the bigger stores do not carry at all.
The big stores carry the fast moving or main items, but rarely the peripheral items that go along with it.
And that is where the smaller stores pick up their customers. By having in stock what the customers want that the big box stores don't stock.
One might ask why we have so many mom n pop stores here in my area that can undersell places like WalMart.
WalMart of course can buy in such massive quantities that they get the best prices. But this doesn't work for many products, especially perishable items.
Most of the mom n pop stores here have joined CoOp's to get their merchandise. And not just one CoOp but several different ones so they have a good assortment of items to sell.
The CoOp's also buy overstock from WalMart's warehouses and other large suppliers.
The regional WalMart warehouse may buy, as an example, 150 pallets of cantaloupes, and send three or four to each store, followed by perhaps 2 more a day later. The rest they sell to a CoOp or two or three. Also to chain stores like Kroger, etc.
WalMart is of course doing it this way to make a profit, and not end up with a loss by having to toss older merchandise.
I studied the supply chain for Arnold's Rye Bread very closely, mainly because I knew they only baked Rye Bread once a week.
Starting with their racking empty, on the day they bake the Rye Bread, that first rack goes to major chain stores like Kroger, but to their warehouse. The second rack goes out to the WalMart local warehouse. Everything brought back as day old, hi hi, from Kroger goes to the CoOp and from their to the smaller chain stores, and what comes back from WalMart to the CoOp goes to the smaller grocers in the area. Everything at the bakery on the other racks goes out to discount stores, who will discard what they don't sell.
I've already went into the other things about Rye Bread, such as the Head End to big stores, the Center to Restaurant Supply, and the smaller Tail end, which goes to the discount stores.
But since the discount stores do get some of their bread from the CoOp, they too can wind up with Head End sized loaves of bread.
Also, a lot of the smaller stores carry the things the bigger stores do not carry at all.
The big stores carry the fast moving or main items, but rarely the peripheral items that go along with it.
And that is where the smaller stores pick up their customers. By having in stock what the customers want that the big box stores don't stock.
Re: Storms roaming around.
I can't explain why your local M & P shops can undersell WalMart, but if they are being sourced by co-ops that goes a long way to clarify the situation. Co-ops would be the small business equivalent of WalMart. Effectively the small shops are working for the co-op which benefits from the same economy of scale that the big box stores do. I've been shopping at a few of those WalMart Super Stores and there is no way I will believe the variety of goods offered is less than that found in the M & P stores. Small family owned shops cater to a specific crowd with specific tastes, which is why you will find items therein that can be difficult to find in the super stores. The super stores can't afford the shelf space for a brand of canned tomatoes that only a dozen people would buy in any given business quarter. Mom and Pop have six cans of the stuff all the time, but I'd want to check those expiration dates before I buy from them. LOL
Needless to say the WalMarts of the world are catering to a different clientele that are the mom and pop stores. The pricing of individual products varies greatly, I'm sure, but the test is at the end of the month when rent is due. Which store has an easier time making it? We have a M & P store down the road from us. He seldom has heavy whipping cream, never has Genoa salami, and his "fresh" bread is imported from STL city. I can't get veal or lamb there and the hamburger is typically a dollar a pound (or greater) more expensive than Dierbergs. His explanation to me is that nobody wants to buy those things in quantity and he ends up tossing it at a loss. In fact he was considering closing the shop at one time, but then, somehow, got himself a liquor license. Most of the good groceries he did have are now replaced by bottled spirits. Yes, that is where the big profits are. That's why he might be able to sell a can of chicken soup cheaper than WalMart. But, it remains to be seen how long the store will remain in business.
Needless to say the WalMarts of the world are catering to a different clientele that are the mom and pop stores. The pricing of individual products varies greatly, I'm sure, but the test is at the end of the month when rent is due. Which store has an easier time making it? We have a M & P store down the road from us. He seldom has heavy whipping cream, never has Genoa salami, and his "fresh" bread is imported from STL city. I can't get veal or lamb there and the hamburger is typically a dollar a pound (or greater) more expensive than Dierbergs. His explanation to me is that nobody wants to buy those things in quantity and he ends up tossing it at a loss. In fact he was considering closing the shop at one time, but then, somehow, got himself a liquor license. Most of the good groceries he did have are now replaced by bottled spirits. Yes, that is where the big profits are. That's why he might be able to sell a can of chicken soup cheaper than WalMart. But, it remains to be seen how long the store will remain in business.
Re: Storms roaming around.
There are brands that distribute in national, regional, state and local levels. The point is in their distribution network. Bimbo Group has hundreds of bakery factories around the world. The Azcapotzalco plant bakes their different products all week long and release product two times a week, a production line for each product, from the plant they send single product containers to the half dozen or so main distribution centers within the metropolitan area during the day as the planned production is released. At the distribution centers, as they arrive, they assemble containers with multiple products destined to cater the two dozen or so distribution warehouses within the Metropolitan area. Usually the product reaching an individual distribution center is 24 to 36 hours from being baked. the warehouse people assemble racks based on the orders for each distribution route daily, so that they pack the racks on the distribution trucks between 20:00 and 4:00 so that when the drivers get to pick their truck to distribute to the Mom and Pop stores (Called detail network) the packed bakery is between 36 and 48 hours since it was baked. A third or so of the distribution warehouses also cater to big box stores, delivering and placing the product directly on the shelves (I know this since when I was servicing them, I got to know a few of the drivers and found them later on the local Big Box stores). As most of their products are changed twice a week and have a shelf life of two weeks, it's rare to find expired packed product apart from the day old stores. In fact there is a "day old" store right at the entrance door of many of the plants, that sell product as fresh as that of both the Mom and Pop or the big store chains. The people at the distribution center told me that is returned product that are sent to mini store distribution warehouses, and its that fresh since they send them single product containers at the same time as to the main distribution centers.
The main competition against Big Box store regarding perishables (fruits, vegetables, unprocessed meat) are mostly dedicated stores, public markets or street markets (known as "tianguis"), that buy their products directly from the market centers, where most small producers offer their products. I've commented a bit about that.
The main competition against Big Box store regarding perishables (fruits, vegetables, unprocessed meat) are mostly dedicated stores, public markets or street markets (known as "tianguis"), that buy their products directly from the market centers, where most small producers offer their products. I've commented a bit about that.
Re: Storms roaming around.
The local (Schnucks) store I shop at most has an in house bakery - or so they claim. I'm not sure where that bakery really is. My favorite bread is made with rye flour and of which they sell two versions. One is a round loaf that seems to be about 97% air and 3% bread dough. It's soft and gooey which seems to be what people like most. There usually are several of those round loafs waiting to be sold. The other type is a regular loaf style that has some substance and seeds of rye. It does not have the hard crust I like, but it is substantially better than the round bread. About once every ten trips to that store I will find one loaf of that rye sitting next to the 5-6 loaves of the inferior round bread. I asked the baker why they don't make more of the loaf style. Very little demand was the excuse. Well yes. If it's not on the shelf, nobody will buy it.
I have a couple bags of rye flour and have baked my own. It's a tedious process to bake your own and it does not come out perfect every time for reasons unknown to me. I wish I had the time and the inclination to make my own bread. I don't, so most of the time I eat Peperidge Farm simulated rye bread; a St Louis favorite.
I have a couple bags of rye flour and have baked my own. It's a tedious process to bake your own and it does not come out perfect every time for reasons unknown to me. I wish I had the time and the inclination to make my own bread. I don't, so most of the time I eat Peperidge Farm simulated rye bread; a St Louis favorite.
Re: Storms roaming around.
Rye bread, real one, is not common here, it 's rather a specialty. Bakery here is mainly a derivation of french bakery with spaniard and local additions, wheat and corn based. There are lots of recipes and varieties both in sweet and salt breads down here, at least in traditional bakery.Peperidge Farm simulated rye bread
What I knew first as "black bread" or "pumpernickel bread" was in many times normal wheat bread that had some cocoa added to color the dough. Yet some big bakeries or the specialty part of the fresh bakery area of big box stores offer some bread with a different taste, which compared to what I tasted at Ottawa or Amsterdam as rye bread turned out to be a mix between real rye and wheat. I understand why there is so much fondness of something that you were used to but you can't commonly get anymore.
What I posted about industrialized bread is first because I knew them while servicing them, and second since as a conglomerate it happens to be the largest bakery on the planet. Personally I don't consume their products in a daily basis, we rather prefer local artisanal bakeries, and there are lots of them in almost every neighborhood around the country.
Re: Storms roaming around.
The first twenty three years of my life was spent living next door to a neighborhood bakery. Commercial businesses are no longer allowed in Chicago city residential areas, but back in the old days there were two or three shops of one kind or another in every block of houses. The bakery next to my house was what you might call an ethnic shop. I lived in a neighborhood dominated by Polish residents, and all the stores there catered to their needs. Thus, the favorite bread was a Polish Rye followed closely by a Pumpernickel. The dark bread was achieved by adding molasses, but I think I'd like the Mexican version with chocolate. LOL All the rye breads had a hard crust and at the time of purchase there was an option to have it sliced for you, or not. I chose to slice my own bread, but a lot of older folks had trouble doing that. So sliced bread was popular too. That early life in Chicago is what bred my liking for rye bread into my soul.
Now that I have made my own, I have discovered the many variations that can produce a loaf of rye bread. To begin with rye flour has several grades ranging from light, which almost looks like bleached wheat flour, to a darker heavy flour for those Pumpernickel breads. The process of preparing the dough is different for each variety of rye flour. And the most shocking thing I learned was that all rye bread is mostly wheat flour. Only about a third of the flour used is rye. I don't recall the exact reason why, but I think it has something to do with all rye flour will not proof well nor bake properly. I've made about six loaves of rye bread in my experiments and I have yet to even come close to what my memories of that childhood bakery produced. Then, too, that bakery was not home made quality. But still, I'd be happy to just get to that level.
Peperidge Farm bread is pretty good for what it is. But. what it is closely resembles the flat sponge I use to wash the dishes. It's my last resort choice here in O'Fallon.
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Now that I have made my own, I have discovered the many variations that can produce a loaf of rye bread. To begin with rye flour has several grades ranging from light, which almost looks like bleached wheat flour, to a darker heavy flour for those Pumpernickel breads. The process of preparing the dough is different for each variety of rye flour. And the most shocking thing I learned was that all rye bread is mostly wheat flour. Only about a third of the flour used is rye. I don't recall the exact reason why, but I think it has something to do with all rye flour will not proof well nor bake properly. I've made about six loaves of rye bread in my experiments and I have yet to even come close to what my memories of that childhood bakery produced. Then, too, that bakery was not home made quality. But still, I'd be happy to just get to that level.
Peperidge Farm bread is pretty good for what it is. But. what it is closely resembles the flat sponge I use to wash the dishes. It's my last resort choice here in O'Fallon.
]
Re: Storms roaming around.
That may have brought order to cities, but is counterproductive. Just very high up areas that I know are purely residential. Most tend to turn into mixed areas sooner or later because of a single factor: Convenience. It's always easier and better for the people to be able to get to local businesses that cater their needs than driving to bland Big Box stores that offer bland general products based on prospective sales. There is also the population density issue. The municipality I live in has 8 times the population that O' Fallon has, and one of the largest industrial corridors of the country, so it's not precisely a low tier place and most chain stores are quite near, compared to O' Fallon.Commercial businesses are no longer allowed in Chicago city residential areas
Following on the examples of industrially baked bread, I found an study that claims that what Bimbo sells as rye bread only has 5% of rye flour. I don't doubt Peperidge Farm or other factory bakeries is somewhat similar. Again, scale economies mark the way things are produced for big populations. In the NAFTA - USMCA area, high fructose corn syrup is the cheapest sweetener, followed by sugar cane, so molasses turns to be not widely distributed. Cocoa powder is common, but not roasted cacao seeds sent to mom and pop chocolate mills. Wheat and corn are common, oat comes to the third place, so rye is more a niche crop... You find it difficult to get lamb, yet it's quite common down here, even in Big Box stores due to our collective craving of it pit roasted the way we know as "Barbacoa", or our version of Haggis. I don't really remember having tasted veal ever, but I fondly crave rabbit and know I could get it without too much difficulty... And so, it depends on the local culture.
https://elpoderdelconsumidor.org/2018/0 ... eno-bimbo/
Re: Storms roaming around.
Until only a few years ago, larger commercial local bakeries were baking most of breads, regardless of label, that were produced in an area. Here in Tennessee it was Kern's Bakery until they closed down, then an even larger national bakery took over, I think it is Bimbo Bakeries International.
I'm sure it works the same way it did when Kern's was making the Rye Breads.
Some of the brands were Brownberry, Orowheat, Pepperidge Farm, and Arnold's of the name brands, and some store brands too.
An upscale store like Shanks, Swans, Straub's in St. Louis County, and a few others are typically high priced.
Here in TN, places like Three Rivers Market, The Copper Cellar, etc. sell Arnold's or Pepperidge Farm Rye for $4.19 per loaf.
Kroger is $3.99, Target is $3.49, WalMart $3.48, and local mom n pop stores are usually under $3.00, our local UGO is normally $1.89 to $2.19, depends on whether it is the large end or the small end. And FWIW: The Pepperidge Farm Day Old Store is usually $2.49 to #2.89.
As I said before, our little local UGO stores are beating most of the competition. But as they grow a little more each year or two adding a new store, we do see their prices going up a little but more too.
I'm sure it works the same way it did when Kern's was making the Rye Breads.
Some of the brands were Brownberry, Orowheat, Pepperidge Farm, and Arnold's of the name brands, and some store brands too.
An upscale store like Shanks, Swans, Straub's in St. Louis County, and a few others are typically high priced.
Here in TN, places like Three Rivers Market, The Copper Cellar, etc. sell Arnold's or Pepperidge Farm Rye for $4.19 per loaf.
Kroger is $3.99, Target is $3.49, WalMart $3.48, and local mom n pop stores are usually under $3.00, our local UGO is normally $1.89 to $2.19, depends on whether it is the large end or the small end. And FWIW: The Pepperidge Farm Day Old Store is usually $2.49 to #2.89.
As I said before, our little local UGO stores are beating most of the competition. But as they grow a little more each year or two adding a new store, we do see their prices going up a little but more too.
Re: Storms roaming around.
It seems that all large cities went through a similar evolution as did Chicago. The downtown area was the first common gathering point with all the markets and shops. Initially it was all farmland that surrounded the cities but the downtown areas grew rapidly and expanded out into the neighboring residential areas. Back in the very early days of Chicago, and other places too, automobiles were not invented yet. It was a day's trip to the downtown stores which is what prompted shops to open in the residential areas. As you point out, Juan, it is a very convenient and personalized experience, but it proved not to be a beneficial arrangement. The traffic to those shops made the neighborhood streets congested and unsafe. Since most neighborhoods were surrounded by main traffic arteries, that is where the neighborhood shops were forced to move. The walk to those stores was a little greater, but indeed it was possible to buy all the things you needed without public transportation or an automobile of your own. As the cities grew and attracted even more people, the variety and number of what we call today "big box stores" increased. Where I lived the first A&P store within walking distance put two or three mom and pop corner groceries out of business. Why did that happen if those close in shops were so convenient and had the specialty foods everyone wanted? The answer is the same as why everything happens: money. It was no longer possible to compete with those big stores because everybody was mobile enough to travel a greater distance for a better price and greater selection of goods. It's easy to blame those big corporate stores for the change in retail sales, but they could not do it if the consumers did not go along with it. I can't say why the small stores are thriving in and around Knoxville. But I'm pretty sure it's the same underlying principle there too; the bottom line profit.
Re: Storms roaming around.
Even down here in Knoxville, when Debi was growing up. Within the residential areas there was often a grocery store every four blocks. The one two blocks from her mom and dads house, opened in like 1941 and didn't close until around 1975. A couple of hair salons that opened in the mid-1940's were still open in the mid-1980's. There were no taverns here since it was a dry county, as were many of the counties around Knox county. Heck, out by Pigeon Forge and Gatlinburg, they were still dry counties up to after the year 2010.
Where I was raised, we had a grocery store only two doors down from our house. But as you said, it was common back then.
Many were not actually put out of business by the big guns moving in, as much as they hung out until they were ready to retire.
What has helped the small stores around here were the CoOp buying groups that sprung up.
At a time when places like Food Lion, and Food City, only had around 40 to 60 stores open.
The CoOp was boasting serving over 400 independent grocers and other industries.
Most of the CoOp's actually started out handling farming merchandise, and items needed for farmers to package their goods for resale to stores. But then they began building larger and larger warehouses and taking in more and more products to resell to independent stores. They also now sell to some of the chain stores as well.
But that is not a new concept. Many small grocers were already joining up with major distributors, such as AG (Associated Grocers) or IGA, and others. But the thing with those types of suppliers, take AG for example, what they sold was under the Topmost brand name. And although they did have tons of stores they were supplying, folks started wanting the Name Brand products like Libby's, Campbell's, Hunt's, etc. And that is where the CoOp movement really shined. They could buy more product than any of the mainline chain grocers because they supplied many more outlets.
A single WalMart local warehouse may only supply 8 to 10 WalMart Stores, and everything else has to come from the WalMart Regional warehouse. And even then, their regional warehouse may only be supplying 50 to 100 WalMarts.
We have a few CoOp outlets where customers can actually go to shop, but they only sell in case lots, which is OK for some things. Heck, I've almost always bought everything in case lots, and still do with many things even today.
Even so, it is rare for me to head out to a CoOp outlet to shop, although there are two I do so about 4 times a year.
On a similar topic, and speaking of Florists here. St. Louis was probably the very best wholesale Floral industry in the entire country. I know down here in Knoxville, you almost have to always order things in from different areas, if you are a Florist.
But all the Wholesalers who sold products to the Floral industry, lined themselves up and down LaSalle Street in St. Louis.
It also included some places like Roger's Wire Works who made things for the floral industry, a small plastics company who made things for the floral industry, but almost all the rest dealt only in the distribution of cut flowers to other florists.
There was a similar operation downtown where a lot of those who provided equipment to beauty shops and barbers all clustered together in a small area. But not lined up down both sides of the road like was with the wholesale floral industry.
Where I was raised, we had a grocery store only two doors down from our house. But as you said, it was common back then.
Many were not actually put out of business by the big guns moving in, as much as they hung out until they were ready to retire.
What has helped the small stores around here were the CoOp buying groups that sprung up.
At a time when places like Food Lion, and Food City, only had around 40 to 60 stores open.
The CoOp was boasting serving over 400 independent grocers and other industries.
Most of the CoOp's actually started out handling farming merchandise, and items needed for farmers to package their goods for resale to stores. But then they began building larger and larger warehouses and taking in more and more products to resell to independent stores. They also now sell to some of the chain stores as well.
But that is not a new concept. Many small grocers were already joining up with major distributors, such as AG (Associated Grocers) or IGA, and others. But the thing with those types of suppliers, take AG for example, what they sold was under the Topmost brand name. And although they did have tons of stores they were supplying, folks started wanting the Name Brand products like Libby's, Campbell's, Hunt's, etc. And that is where the CoOp movement really shined. They could buy more product than any of the mainline chain grocers because they supplied many more outlets.
A single WalMart local warehouse may only supply 8 to 10 WalMart Stores, and everything else has to come from the WalMart Regional warehouse. And even then, their regional warehouse may only be supplying 50 to 100 WalMarts.
We have a few CoOp outlets where customers can actually go to shop, but they only sell in case lots, which is OK for some things. Heck, I've almost always bought everything in case lots, and still do with many things even today.
Even so, it is rare for me to head out to a CoOp outlet to shop, although there are two I do so about 4 times a year.
On a similar topic, and speaking of Florists here. St. Louis was probably the very best wholesale Floral industry in the entire country. I know down here in Knoxville, you almost have to always order things in from different areas, if you are a Florist.
But all the Wholesalers who sold products to the Floral industry, lined themselves up and down LaSalle Street in St. Louis.
It also included some places like Roger's Wire Works who made things for the floral industry, a small plastics company who made things for the floral industry, but almost all the rest dealt only in the distribution of cut flowers to other florists.
There was a similar operation downtown where a lot of those who provided equipment to beauty shops and barbers all clustered together in a small area. But not lined up down both sides of the road like was with the wholesale floral industry.
Re: Storms roaming around.
Sorry, I thought "veal" meant "venado" or venison, just found it means "ternera". Most big stores sell something that they claim is veal, as well as local butcher shops... And we were taught by Dad about how to try to differentiate it since it all depends on the butcher.It seems that all large cities went through a similar evolution as did Chicago. The downtown area was the first common gathering point with all the markets and shops. Initially it was all farmland that surrounded the cities but the downtown areas grew rapidly and expanded out into the neighboring residential areas. Back in the very early days of Chicago, and other places too, automobiles were not invented yet. It was a day's trip to the downtown stores which is what prompted shops to open in the residential areas.
Down here, since settlements can be studied back to the days before the Europeans came to the continent, meaning that settlement was done by foot, we have towns that evolved in similar ways to most of the self called "Old World". On the old European days, as well as here, most settlements used to be within a "league" from each other, around 3 miles or 5 km, give or take. In the "Old world" farming involved the different kinds of cattle, over here it was mainly crops, hueyxolotls, itzcuintlies, rabbits, some iguanas and venison for the elite. Getting back to the post, most towns grew with time and either fused into small cities or were absorbed by the nearest metropolis. Just looking into a map, if you see a name that appears to be from a local language, it may be a native settlement. Just from what is on the top of my mind, Chicago, Kenosha, Milwaukee, Mississippi, Tennessee, Chattanooga, Manhattan, Ottawa, Mississauga... sound to me like native names, as well as Querétaro, Toluca, Xalapa, Acatitla, Tenayuca, Amozoc, Texcoco, Chilpancingo, Oaxaca, just to say a few.
Re: Storms roaming around.
There were two neighborhood groceries near the home I grew up in. One was directly across the street and the other was one block down in the opposite direction. When Chicago passed the ordinance that commercial businesses may no longer operate inside residential zoned areas, they did not shut down the stores immediately. They simply would not renew the business licenses when they expired, and more often than not they let the mom and pop shops go until they retired. A few retired early because their business was not as profitable as it used to be. I guess the change was about as graceful as it could have been.
Veal is the meat of calves. Venison is meat from a deer. Oddly enough I can get venison easier than I can get the veal. Sometimes my favorite shops will have veal that is prepackaged and not fresh cut. One butcher shop handles frozen veal only. None of the stores can be relied on to have veal in stock at any given time. One of the stores would cut the veal in their butcher department, but they stopped doing that a few years ago. There is nothing better than fresh cut.
My wife's sister lived out in Iowa on a small farm of her own for several years. They were the people who first told me about co-ops. The town had one WalMart and maybe another M&P grocery, but most of the things they bought were from the co-op. It's still a little fuzzy in my mind why big volume sales companies like WalMart can't compete with a co-op. I think in essence they both operate the same way but co-ops don't have the corporate overhead as do the chain stores.
Chicago translated to some native American language as "stinky onion" LOL That was due to the fact that there were a lot of wild onions growing around the first settlement. I'm not sure that there was a Chicago tribe, and I'm also sure I was told from where it got it's name. But my old brain doesn't recall the story anymore. You could be right, Juan, about those cities having roots in the early Indian populations of the areas.
Veal is the meat of calves. Venison is meat from a deer. Oddly enough I can get venison easier than I can get the veal. Sometimes my favorite shops will have veal that is prepackaged and not fresh cut. One butcher shop handles frozen veal only. None of the stores can be relied on to have veal in stock at any given time. One of the stores would cut the veal in their butcher department, but they stopped doing that a few years ago. There is nothing better than fresh cut.
My wife's sister lived out in Iowa on a small farm of her own for several years. They were the people who first told me about co-ops. The town had one WalMart and maybe another M&P grocery, but most of the things they bought were from the co-op. It's still a little fuzzy in my mind why big volume sales companies like WalMart can't compete with a co-op. I think in essence they both operate the same way but co-ops don't have the corporate overhead as do the chain stores.
Chicago translated to some native American language as "stinky onion" LOL That was due to the fact that there were a lot of wild onions growing around the first settlement. I'm not sure that there was a Chicago tribe, and I'm also sure I was told from where it got it's name. But my old brain doesn't recall the story anymore. You could be right, Juan, about those cities having roots in the early Indian populations of the areas.
Re: Storms roaming around.
I don't think I have anything new to add to this conversation.
Where and how I was raised, I know the entire history of our little town and how it grew over the years.
Most of which I've already posted about in bits and pieces of the years.
Debi's family comprises several long time farmers, almost all of them gone new of course.
But even after places like Chain Grocery Stores, and Big Stores like WalMart came along.
They still would only sell to their local CoOp.
They heard too many tales of woe about selling to the Big Chains or raising crops just for them, and then they fail to take them because they got a load or two or three from somewhere else.
On a similar note, I know small businesses who have been around for decades.
The bounced for joy when they got a contract for their merchandise from WalMart or a Big Box Chain.
It cost them a fortune to gear up to meet the demand of these big outfits, and then at the drop of hat, they decide to buy elsewhere and the small guy who bought all the equipment necessary was then stuck in a debt with no way to make enough sales to cover said debt.
I think this is one reason the CoOp's don't normally sell to the Big Box Chains.
Where and how I was raised, I know the entire history of our little town and how it grew over the years.
Most of which I've already posted about in bits and pieces of the years.
Debi's family comprises several long time farmers, almost all of them gone new of course.
But even after places like Chain Grocery Stores, and Big Stores like WalMart came along.
They still would only sell to their local CoOp.
They heard too many tales of woe about selling to the Big Chains or raising crops just for them, and then they fail to take them because they got a load or two or three from somewhere else.
On a similar note, I know small businesses who have been around for decades.
The bounced for joy when they got a contract for their merchandise from WalMart or a Big Box Chain.
It cost them a fortune to gear up to meet the demand of these big outfits, and then at the drop of hat, they decide to buy elsewhere and the small guy who bought all the equipment necessary was then stuck in a debt with no way to make enough sales to cover said debt.
I think this is one reason the CoOp's don't normally sell to the Big Box Chains.
Re: Storms roaming around.
Those mega markets have an interesting supply network. There are some pretty high priced purchasing agents working for them and surveying the global markets for the best deals, i.e., lowest prices. Local suppliers can greatly reduce shipping and transportation costs which could be the reason outfits like WalMart deal with them at all. It's surprising but true that a boatload of apples might be cheaper coming from Viet Nam than from Paw Paw Michigan. It all depends on the current conditions in the commodities market and the local farmers must deal with that reality regardless of who they sell their products to. Commodity market contracts are legal commitments, but their duration and price fluctuations are breath taking. The only people who really come out ahead are the contract brokers. The guy at the bottom of the supply chain gets screwed the most.
Re: Storms roaming around.
Boy do you have that right Yogi!
Because we were produce farmers before turning mostly to flowers, and then finally only flowers, except for our own families produce. And because we've known those farmers in Grainger County who raise tomatoes down here, and have helped in their grading houses. The quality of the produce dictates the price they expect, and it is not really all that hard to get your asking price.
There is a whole family of like seven farms who are all relatives, sons and daughters who started their own places, all from the same family. But they don't intermix their businesses between each other.
As usual Grade A produce goes to the upscale stores, and restaurants, and the selling price to the grower is like 25 bucks a case. Grade B produce goes to most of the chain grocery stores for 22 bucks a case.
Grade C produce goes to the many smaller grocers and discount stores for 20 bucks a case.
Regular folks can come in and buy tomatoes by the case also, at those prices.
But they also have Grade B and C quality with a blemish or deformity which they call Grades D and E, these sell for 12.50 and 10 bucks per case.
Which brings us down to Grade F, which is basically anything that did not meet the higher grades, or not sold to walk-in customers, the excess so to speak. All of these go to the canning plant for 10 bucks a case.
Even with all those grades, they still have several cases that are not worthy to go to the canners. So they get dumped.
Any tomato with a split skin, a bird peck hole, or any other physical damage is considered garbage.
This is not the case with the big commercial farmers who grow millions of tomatoes, harvest with machinery, grade with machinery by size, and photometrics for color and also looking for flaws.
And I think it is best not to get into the how and why you can buy clusters of salad or cherry tomatoes still on the stem and they are all the same ripeness. I don't think you want to know how that is done, hi hi.
Because we were produce farmers before turning mostly to flowers, and then finally only flowers, except for our own families produce. And because we've known those farmers in Grainger County who raise tomatoes down here, and have helped in their grading houses. The quality of the produce dictates the price they expect, and it is not really all that hard to get your asking price.
There is a whole family of like seven farms who are all relatives, sons and daughters who started their own places, all from the same family. But they don't intermix their businesses between each other.
As usual Grade A produce goes to the upscale stores, and restaurants, and the selling price to the grower is like 25 bucks a case. Grade B produce goes to most of the chain grocery stores for 22 bucks a case.
Grade C produce goes to the many smaller grocers and discount stores for 20 bucks a case.
Regular folks can come in and buy tomatoes by the case also, at those prices.
But they also have Grade B and C quality with a blemish or deformity which they call Grades D and E, these sell for 12.50 and 10 bucks per case.
Which brings us down to Grade F, which is basically anything that did not meet the higher grades, or not sold to walk-in customers, the excess so to speak. All of these go to the canning plant for 10 bucks a case.
Even with all those grades, they still have several cases that are not worthy to go to the canners. So they get dumped.
Any tomato with a split skin, a bird peck hole, or any other physical damage is considered garbage.
This is not the case with the big commercial farmers who grow millions of tomatoes, harvest with machinery, grade with machinery by size, and photometrics for color and also looking for flaws.
And I think it is best not to get into the how and why you can buy clusters of salad or cherry tomatoes still on the stem and they are all the same ripeness. I don't think you want to know how that is done, hi hi.