Happy Pi Day

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yogi
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Re: Happy Pi Day

Post by yogi »

I think that geometry and algebra coincide with the functions of the right and left lobes of the brain. Geometry is based on images that can be visualized easily. Algebra is all logical theory, which in my case was not logical. The creativity you have and talked about here is all right side of the brain activity, and thus could explain why geometry made sense. Trig is a composite of both which is why algebra and geometry need to be studied beforehand. I did well in the first part of my trig class, but as the semester dragged on I got worse because it involve more algebra at that point. All this math is intuitive for engineers with degrees which is why it's easy for them to overlook details. A thorough investigator as you are and have been certainly could find all those calculated mistakes.

The programmable calculator I had was based on machine code programming. In fact some of the instructions were identical to what certain CPU's of the day required. The logic is harder to follow at that level, and that could be why you had a difficult time with it. But, like your experience with BASIC, some amazing things can be done with machine code programs if you look into it deep enough.
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Kellemora
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Re: Happy Pi Day

Post by Kellemora »

You know, I bought a book about drawing, after 50 years of not being able to draw anything artistic.
Artistry is considerably different than drafting hi hi.
But using this book I was able to draw some amazing images. The only problem was, it took me a week to draw something an artist could do in under an hour, or in some cases, in minutes.

One of my jobs was to convert the engineers calculations into a drawing on a set of plans.
It is when you try to plot something on a sheet of drafting film that you see some of the plots don't work right, hi hi.
The numbers look right when you just glance down the row of numbers, a long slow steady incline with a slow curve.
But when you start to plot it, you find a few mistakes in those calculations.
Like, why is there a concrete supporting column off the edge of the road not doing anything out there, hi hi.
And of course the corresponding support column that should be in a certain place is missing.

Sorta like the railroad tracks for the east/west railway ending up like this.

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Kellemora
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Re: Happy Pi Day

Post by Kellemora »

Hmm, I forgot html removes all the spaces. That bottom track was supposed to start where the top track ended.
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yogi
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Re: Happy Pi Day

Post by yogi »

I watch public broadcasting for about an hour each morning. It used to be more interesting up north when the emphasis was on cooking shows. Here in O'Fallon they are into quilting, sewing, and painting. Of course I've seen a lot of painting shows back home too, but here the programming is different for some reason even thought it's the same company doing the broadcasting. Anyway, watching these artist do what they do is amazing. Bob Ross, the most famous PBS artist, can do a masterpiece in the 23 minutes he is allowed. Some of the artists I watch now can also complete a painting in one show, but several take it in steps.

There are two aspects of painting that prevent me from attempting it. The first and most obvious is that I can't draw a straight line even with a ruler. LOL The artistic value is in the lack of precision. I'd want to make a tree look like a photograph of a tree. These guys splash paint about randomly and when they are done that blob of color does in fact resemble a tree. It's done in a specific sequence, but each artist seems to have their own approach. One will do all the sky first while the next will do all the foreground first. Then there are those who mix it up and seem to have no pattern. They just do it.

Also, there is the pallet of paint. Many of the artists will have a previous painting handy and copy that for their show. Others seem to grab images right out of their mind with no visual aids at all. In fact I think the only reason they do have visual aids in the first place is for the benefit of the viewing audience. Most of them start by plopping down a half dozen or more colors onto their pallet. They never use the paint right out of the tube. It's always a mix of several colors before they apply it to the canvass. And that is my problem. I can do some basic color blending, but these guys just smear things together without giving it a thought. I have no idea how they can break up a tree, for example, into seventeen different colors that they blend randomly. Like the drawing, the paints look marvelous when the picture is completed.

So, I decided, if I ever do try my hand at art, it will be a paint by numbers project. :grin:

I think the world of electrical engineering is much the same as civil engineering. The design people will come up with a concept, and a schematic, and maybe a flow chart or two. Then their lab technicians get to build the prototype. That's when it's discovered that the parts they specify won't fit into the package they designed. LOL
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Kellemora
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Re: Happy Pi Day

Post by Kellemora »

I always wanted to be able to draw, and did strive toward it when I was younger.
My dad actually hired Jon Gnagy a famous TV artist at the time to tutor me for a month.
After about a week he told my dad I would never grasp the concept of being an artist, so he should have his money.

It was perhaps 30 years later when I found this book that taught me how to draw. The lessons were step by step, and I did all the lessons in the book quite well. Then I did some not from the book when I was stuck up in Illinois for a day. But what I drew up there used more of my drafting skills than artistic skills, which is why I got done with it.

I had a friend who could draw so well using a simple pencil, when he was done, it looked like a black n white photograph, clear and sharp, you would never guess it was done with a pencil. And he was fast too!
Then one place I worked there was a cartoonist who could draw cartoon characters of any of us in the office, and he could instinctively pick out the facial features of anyone and you would know with only a few drawn lines exactly who it was, hi hi.

One of the biggest problems we had working on the components associated with the natural gas pipeline and the pumping stations was the engineers never know how large some of those machines and their components really were. Or put this way, you can't fit a 16 foot long machine in an 8 x 14 foot area, hi hi.
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yogi
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Re: Happy Pi Day

Post by yogi »

I think it's pretty interesting that you definitely are a right side brain person with all that creativity and inventive ability, but can't use it to be artistic. Art stretches reality, which is what makes it art in the first place. Most of the things you talked about here are practical and no stretch of the imagination. So, perhaps, there may be different kinds of creative talent. I think I'm stuck in the same mode you are in that I just can't get the hang of art production. However, I did try sculpting in clay at one time and didn't do too bad at it. The problem I had was it took too long and the clay set before I had a chance to finish the sculpture. I tossed it after that and never went back. Then again, I didn't have any nude models to work with either. LOL
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Kellemora
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Re: Happy Pi Day

Post by Kellemora »

I've made many things during arts and crafts in school, and got B+ or A on most of them.
But I have this bad habit of biting off more than I can chew, so it takes much longer to finish a project.
But I was thinking ahead even back then to the total finished project.
I made a small metal table from steel in shop class. Took it to Theiss Plating to have it plated. Got a B.
In art class I designed what looked like the King and Queen of playing cards, but in a cartoonish way. Got a B.
I used this drawing as the template for doing a Mosaic where we had to make our own tile first, Got an A on tile making.
It took me nearly six months to cut and place all the Mosaic pieces to it looked like my drawing. Got a B+ on that.
But the teacher had to allow me much longer than the Mosaic class lasted before he could give me my grade.
I turned it in near the end of the school year.
Then at the last month of school when we were working with resins. I poured a clear top over the Mosaics so now the table top was perfectly smooth. Unfortunately, I must not have used enough hardener, so about 5 years later, it became tacky and things would stick to it. I cleaned it down real well and added another super hard finish over the top, but it still alligatored underneath the hard surface, but in a way gave it an interesting pattern. I still have this table sitting in the garage.

Ironically, sitting on my shelf here in my office, I have a clay vase I made for my mom at summer camp when I was around 12 years old. Doesn't look all that fancy, but she kept it and passed it back to me right before she died.
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yogi
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Re: Happy Pi Day

Post by yogi »

None of those things were drawings, but each project showed how creative you were in other media.
Moms are sentimental especially when it comes to their kids. I made a Christmas tree ornament out of paper way back in kindergarten. Mom kept it well preserved and was among her souvenirs when she passed away. I still have it stowed away somewhere.
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Kellemora
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Re: Happy Pi Day

Post by Kellemora »

When my son was in like third grade or so. He made a watercolor drawing.
He dropped it on the rain soaked street getting off the bus.
I dried it out and framed it and kept it on the wall to the right of my Organ so I could see it each day.

My step-daughter made an engraving on glass for her mother.
It got broken in her backpack and she was heartbroken over it.
I told her I can fix it if we break it two more times. Which we did, carefully.
I then used copper foil, which is used in lieu of came for delicate work.
Put it all back together like a stained glass window with a nice tubular brass frame.
It looked totally awesome, and her mom kept it on the wall above her desk with a backlight sorta due to light reflecting off the wall, made it look even neater yet.
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yogi
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Re: Happy Pi Day

Post by yogi »

I like what you did with the broken glass. I might have thought about doing something similar, but I'd have no idea of how to go about it. Up in Chicago is a place called Navy Pier. Over the decades it has been used for many different purposes. I spent my college days there before the University of Illinois built their campus in some other part of the city. The pier had to extend a mile our so out into the lake and some thought went into making it a shopping mall. That never happened but some shops did take over the front end. The back part out on the lake was an exhibition center or two. Those front shops had what was called a stained glass museum. There were a couple dozen of the most awesome stained glass windows on display for public viewing in the Smith Museum of Stained Glass Windows located on the pier. I recall trying to imagine how anybody could create such things, but these were not masterpiece quality such as you might find in an old cathedral. It's a rare art form these days, and that particular museum is permanently out of business now.
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Kellemora
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Re: Happy Pi Day

Post by Kellemora »

I rebuilt all of the stained glass windows in my grandparents house for them. Every single one had gotten broken in some way or fashion over the years. We had a stained glass shop out in Ballwin where I could get materials I needed.
I also ended up making a few stained glass hanging lamps that were awesome when finished.

It was only by luck that I learned about the copper foil which is mostly for doing things like miniature items, such as a 6 to 8 inch diameter stained glass lampshade. You still have to put lead over the copper using a soldering iron to end up with it looking like came. Plus they came up with a super narrow copper foil also so you only have a 1/16th inch wide seam for some super delicate work. I made the frau a pair of stained glass earrings one year for Christmas. They were a hit and some of her friends from work wanted some, so I ended up making like 25 pairs of them to the designs requested. I only charged for materials and a few hours labor for them, but a couple of the gals who were more well to do paid me a hundred bucks extra for making them for them.

As silly as this sounds, I had my hands in many different hobbies over the years. I never made a career out of any of them, but did them just so I knew how it was done at a beginner to moderate working level. Knowing these things helped me in other fields to make common things more interesting.

Antique doors and windows used to have the frame facing made with an indented area around the door or window. Meaning the board itself had a center of the board that was shallower than the rest of the board. It was a common design back then.
One house I was working at had a strip of leather in this slot in two main rooms of the house. Not ornate.
I was fairly good at leatherworking so found a pleasing design to make and did so on strips of leather used on the hallway side of the rooms to the bedrooms and hall bath. The owner loved my idea, and I ended up doing all the door frames in the house the same way. Except the kitchen where he had a lot of wicker work. So I made wicker ones that matched their existing wickerwork and used that on the door frame insets.

For another fellow, who was more modern in a modern house. He had a game, music, and dance room. One wall was made of full length mirrors, but made using the cheaper mirror tiles, little 1 foot squares, and several had fallen down and broke. He had me take them all down, resize the wall, and wanted me to glue aluminum foil in lieu of wallpaper on that wall. Which I did, but I bought paper backed aluminum foil wallpaper so it would look nicer, more like the mirrors. He didn't really like it and we talked about using real aluminum foil that we wrinkled up and unwrinkled again before gluing it up. But before we got around to doing it, he saw a bubble wall, which was nothing more than wallpaper with big bumps in it.
Do you remember the carton that L'eggs Panty Hose came in? A cardboard cylinder with a chrome plastic dome for a cap!
I bought like 1,050 of these L'eggs containers from the company, but only needed the plastic top, which they were glad to sell that many to me, after I told them what I was going to do with them.
It took a while to glue that many up to the wall, but the end effect is exactly what he wanted, so he was more than pleased.

Also, back when pour-chip floors were popular, the clear component was called Targinol and I could buy it by the 5 gallon buckets full. We did floors with everything from LPs and 45s embedded in the floor, to brown paper bags torn up to look like flagstone. We also did a bar top covered with half dollars, but used an epoxy instead of Targinol for that job.

I had a lot of phun doing jobs for folks that were out of the ordinary!
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yogi
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Re: Happy Pi Day

Post by yogi »

The number of things you became involved with is amazing. You told me the secret to doing it all is that you multi-tasked most of the time. I can understand that would increase the number of activities in which you are engaged, but you obviously did more than just take a casual interest. You became good at each one, and that takes a lot of time for most people.

You told the story about the L'egg wall you made and it is just as amazing to read this time as it was previously. I could possibly come up with a similar idea, but I would not know where to start when it comes to acquiring 1000 canister tops. LOL I guess when you are an accomplished businessman knowledge of where the sources are is already part of your database.

One of the restaurants around here with a Rt 66 theme has tabletops made with clear resin and memorabilia of all sorts embedded under it. I've seen some of those glitter floors and often thought of doing my basement that way. Then again, concrete cracks. That would probably mess up the flooring.
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Kellemora
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Re: Happy Pi Day

Post by Kellemora »

If the truth were known, I love doing new things, but then tire of them quickly, and wouldn't want to be stuck doing any one thing as a career for life. I guess that is why I liked general contracting, once I worked my way up to that level. As it involved all the trades, from sanitary and supply plumbing, to carpentry, to electric installation and distribution, etc.
Plus there are all kinds of challenges in older houses to overcome to get things to come out just right. And I love challenges.

I could have had the L'eggs tops or something similar made for me by a vacuum forming company. But it was easier just to contact the L'eggs folks with a request to buy 1,100 lids, after I told them what I was going to use them for. They made them by the hundred thousands, so could offer them to me much cheaper than I could have that small amount of them made.

I know we are both too olde to get into doing basement floors, but knowing how to do it is always good knowledge.
As you pointed out, it is not wise to work directly on the concrete itself, especially if there is a possibility of it cracking or sweating for that matter. Although we did the concession stand floor of a drive-in theater with the pour-chip Targanol floor and it held up for nearly 15 years, or until the theater closed down to put a shopping center there.

Indoors, on a basement floor, provided it is a dry basement, we can skip one step. And that is placing RIBBED plastic sheeting over the floor with the ribs facing down.
In all cases: Before a pour-chip floor is installed, a layer of 1/4 inch Luan is placed to cover the entire floor. Then the white pre-coat primer is placed over that. Then the desired material to be embedded, either plastic chips which is the norm, or some other thin items. Most of the time other than chips, whatever is put down needs to be glued in place, so it doesn't float out when the floor is poured. When I did the chip floors, I sprayed a thin coat of diluted Targanol over the chips first, and once it set up, then I would pour the thick Targanol layer.

As I mentioned a couple of times before, I have worked directly on concrete floors, using like brown paper bags torn to look like flagstone. This was tricky because you need to glue down the paper, but you can't get any of the glue on top of what is already down or the Targanol will turn it white and make it ugly. What was neat about brown paper bags, is you made sure the next bag piece you put down overlapped the bag under it by 1/2 to 3/4 inch, but kept uniform around the floor. Once the Targanol was poured, the places where the bags overlapped would come out a darker shade so looked like mortar seams, sorta.

You've seen concrete walkways where they brushed the concrete off the tan river gravel to make it look like a pebbled walkway. I had a guy once who bought some rose quartz in 1/8 to 1/4 inch sizes. The normal size for rose quartz is usually 3/4 inch diameter. So where he came up with the finer grade I have no idea.
He had a covered breezeway between his house and garage, unheated, so the floor was looking really bad.
He put brass L-brackets the length of each doors width to hold the stone in place, sprayed down the room with a clear lacquer to make the stones sparkle. But at the cost of the lacquer, he didn't want to apply enough coats to make the floor smooth and easy to keep clean.
There was one corner near the garage mandoor where a chunk of concrete was broken off and of which he filled with the rose quartz. This is where we poured some Targanol to see if it would mess up the lacquer he already sprayed down. I was afraid the lacquer would turn white, but it didn't. So a week later we came out and poured his entire floor, extra thick, up to the brass L-bracket tops. I had never poured one that thick before so was a tad worried about it. But all came out A-OK and he was as happy as Lark with it. It was really neat to look at also. Almost like looking at water over a creek bed in a way.

All that being said, I would never recommend Targanol be used on a tabletop or counter. That's where epoxy resin is most suited.
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yogi
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Re: Happy Pi Day

Post by yogi »

Torginol is specifically made for flooring and not intended for table tops. Those tables in the restaurant I mentioned had a lot of traffic, but obviously not foot traffic. The tables were still pretty shiny when I was there, but they didn't sparkle like brand new. Apparently the Targinol people are still in business up in Wisconsin and into ecology.

I don't know much about building but I do know a subfloor is always necessary. It's interesting that you used ribbed plastic sheeting. I am wondering why ribbing is necessary. Would that be to provide a kind of cushion effect? It seems as if a Torginol floor should be rock solid and not floating on corrugation.

My career plans were opposite to yours in the sense that I wanted to stay with one company until i retired. The option to climb up the corporate ladder was always there, but I'd be dealing with the same things no matter what role I played. The diversity of interests you have parallels my interest in computers and computer operating systems. I love exploring new systems and setting them up but my interest quickly diminishes after that. While all that is true I never got the certifications to prove my skills. I guess I didn't need them while working for somebody else. It sure would have helped when they let me go early however.
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Kellemora
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Re: Happy Pi Day

Post by Kellemora »

Targinol is now only available and can only be installed by professionals.
Same way with vinyl stucco siding used on office buildings.
But back when I was doing general contracting work, I could buy all of those items with ease, so could anyone back then.

When I installed floating laminate flooring, I had many jobs that were to do basements.
I always used the ribbed vinyl over the concrete first, then my 1/4 inch fanfold.
I never used the plastic sheet with the felt on it in any installation I ever did.

If you install a floating floor the way they tell you to, it clacks when walking on it.
If you do it my way with 1/4 inch fanfold it sound like you are walking on hardwood.

The purpose of the ribbed vinyl was to give a way for moisture to escape from under the floor, and it worked well for that purpose, and no it did not cause a cushioning affect, especially since I used fanfold over it.

There are many companies out there that sell two-part epoxy floor coatings. But it is hard to find a soft version like Torginal.
The super hard versions are used on table and countertops, and is slippery, not something you would really want on a floor.
Torginal was not slippery, per se, it had a shiny finished, but was not hard.
In fact, if you used vinyl buckets to blend the mixture before pouring, what was left in the bucket you let dry so you could peel it out. I've had some pieces 1/2 inch thick I peeled from the bottom of a bucket and they remained semi-pliable.

I used to buy clear-cast to use to make blocks with things embedded inside, like a Lucite Cube.
It dries hard and stays clear.
I found a slightly thinner product that was more like water, and by using a venturi type sprayer, I could spray it on artificial flower decorations, or on things that would remain rigid, because if you bent it, it would crack.
We used a lot of wood products, like easels to put flowers on, and wicker baskets made of wood slats.
One year after we whitewashed a batch of them, I sprayed them with the thin clear epoxy, and they stayed great looking for years, so most funeral homes kept them and reused them so all we had to do was send the container that fit in them.

I also use to coat cheap wood birdhouses that were painted, mainly designed for indoor use, also, after drilling the hole to the size I needed for the type birds I wanted to use it.

Then the price of that stuff shot up like crazy. We used to get 5 gallons buckets, which is actually 10 gallons since it was a two part mixture, for like 35 bucks. Then they came out with a new formula where you just emptied this tube of hardener into the 5 gallon bucket, but the price also was higher, like 65 bucks for only 5 gallons.
Now, a 5 gallon bucket is more like 700 bucks, so it has become not an affordable option for a lot of things.
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yogi
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Re: Happy Pi Day

Post by yogi »

OK, I get it now. The ribbed vinyl was used with laminate floors, not with poured floors. That makes sense. Adding the fanfold is a good idea but must have also added to the cost. it's $50 a square for the cheap version at Lowes. You probably are right about the sound being different, but do many people really care about that?

This is not cheap https://www.theepoxyresinstore.com/prod ... sin-mixing @ $300 for 5 gallons, but it's not the $700 of which you speak.
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Kellemora
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Re: Happy Pi Day

Post by Kellemora »

Clear Cast resin is a HARD resin, like used on countertops and tables. Or used in molds to embed items inside.

Ribbed vinyl can also be used as the first base under the 1/4 inch size Luan board for pour chip floors.
Without the ribbing underneath, 1/8th inch Luan is usually used as the base for pour chip floors in houses.
Often skipped for garages and like the drive in theater concessions stand we did, back when you could buy Torginol.

The main difference between Epoxy and Targinol (never did remember how to spell that right), is Targinol is not super hard like Epoxy. But not sticky like some underhardened epoxies.
If you used Epoxy on lets say a kitchen floor and dropped something, it would shatter for sure.
But if you dropped it on Targinol, there's a chance it wouldn't break.
I'm not saying Targinol was cushy like rubber, but it did have the texture of a vinyl plastic bucket.

No it was actually cheaper, 1/4 inch fanfold was about half the price of the felt coated vinyl sheeting sold to put under laminate flooring. At least it was back when I was installing flooring. Don't know about today anymore though. A lot of floating floors come with a cushion back now too.
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yogi
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Re: Happy Pi Day

Post by yogi »

Back in the old house I redid the Command and Control Center with a laminate floor. It was my first attempt at such a project but it didn't seem like an impossible thing to do for a neophyte. The old floor was vinyl tiles and for some reason I figured they had to be removed before putting on the new floor. It wasn't all that difficult although some tiles needed extra encouragement to be removed. The end result was a sticky subfloor because these tiles were the kind you peel off the back and stick them right into place with no mastic mortar involved. Since I knew the new floor was supposed to be floating, I figured it was a bad idea to install it on this sticky subflooring. I had a roll of thick red paper that I used to cover the carpets after they were cleaned and before they fully dried out. I covered the floor with this paper and proceeded to install the laminate floor.

The flooring had a green kind of spongy backing, which I suppose is what you were referring to above. It installed perfectly and as I mentioned earlier the sound of walking on it didn't matter to me. I usually wore soft sole shoes anyway. The hallway leading to the CCC also got the laminate treatment, but I did have to put some kind of underlayment on that because the plywood subfloor joints were not exactly even. That didn't matter given it was carpeted. I got some 1/4" plywood sheets and covered up the uneven floor and put the laminate on top of that. It might have sounded different, but to be honest I did not notice any difference. Then again, I wasn't looking for it.

Wile I never used Targinol or epoxy I did read the blurbs and what you mentioned here. I think I know the difference. My link was just to point out that the epoxy isn't cheap, but also not as expensive as you may have thought.
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Kellemora
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Re: Happy Pi Day

Post by Kellemora »

I think most of the laminate floors now come with the fuzzy backing on them. But then I've not checked in over 15 years if not longer.
I did a car showroom using my 1/4 fanfold underlayment and the weight of the cars never crushed it down. However, I did use 1/4 inch luan at the two doors where they drove in and out, because I know the foam would have crushed down being hit on the edge like that. I was in that dealership a few times after I installed the floor and it still looked as good as the day I put it in for them, and that was like 4 or 5 years later.

I had to do a rough concrete floor once and we decided to go with the thick tarpaper with the mica flakes in it as the first layer. Then over that, similar to your red paper, we put a thick Kraft paper layer over that. Then the luan and the chips and the normal chip floor with Targinol.

I would assume to make a semi-resilient non-slip epoxy coating is much more costly to make than the hard epoxy resin.
The whole thing behind Targinol is it does not become sticky with age, nor does it become brittle.
It's just a shame they decided to only let their installers use it now, since the public can not buy it.
I've not found anything else that is exactly like Targinol either, some things are close, but not the same.
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yogi
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Re: Happy Pi Day

Post by yogi »

I can't say for sure, but the way the Torginol website reads apparently they do deal with do-it-yourself folks: https://www.torginol.com/samples/ I have thought of installing it in the basement here, but that was when we first moved in and had a lot of cash left over from the sale of the first house. LOL Things are a little different now that we've been here 5+ years. Maybe I'll order some samples just for the heck of it.

Many years after I installed that laminate floor I read an article describing how to do it. They suggested a layer of that red paper I used to go directly under the flooring pieces. Apparently I did it right but by pure accident.
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