I'm not sure what the density of the water is in those tall separation tanks they use, but do know they don't separate everything that way. Some things are cooked and the gasses recovered and distilled to get the individual chemicals out.
I wish I could find out more on-line about those separation towers and how they extract only certain items so easily it is affordable for them to do it.
Especially for the electronics they literally pulverize into almost dust to make the separation process easier and faster.
I don't think they like eating cars that way, because there are some tempered steel items in cars that could dull those blades in such a way the machine could bind up.
Can you image how much horsepower it takes to run those big grinders?
Well, with the proper gearing, maybe not so much as I would think.
Avatar Issues
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Re: Avatar Issues
Apparently you can levitate metals to separate them from the plastics and paper. Magnets extract the ferrous metals, but there are a few ways to separate the rest: One method separates metal by its melting point. Then, there are bugs, insects, that are attracted to certain metals and eat them. The bugs can then be harvested. It's all pretty amazing. 
http://www.mssoptical.com/frequently-as ... equipment/
I don't know what it takes to grind up a Toyota, but I do know it takes 1700hp to move a Sherman Tank at 35mph.
http://www.mssoptical.com/frequently-as ... equipment/
I don't know what it takes to grind up a Toyota, but I do know it takes 1700hp to move a Sherman Tank at 35mph.
Re: Avatar Issues
Interesting Read there Yogi!
Small electronics like cell phones, radios, watches, and other electronics are literally pulverized almost to dust.
And they go through several stages of separation. Some by magnetism, some by liquid tower separation mostly to remove the plastics, and then electronics was used to isolate the other metals, but they never disclosed how they did it.
I do know some of the plastics are burned and they use like a still to condense the gaseous elements back into liquids. But no place you get to tour will tell you how they achieve their trade secret methods of operation. They only show you the larger self-explanatory methods. They did say the plastics recovery system work on the same principle as a refinery.
On a similar note: Pot metal was used quite heavily when making older cars. Most pot metal was made from recycled metals, mostly tin scraps and often with some iron, that were to costly to try and separate further, back then.
This means there is often a small amount of silver, gold, lead, and copper in each pot metal casting.
With the technology we have today, enough precious metals can be gleaned from old pot metal automotive components to make the process profitable.
Similar to what your article stated, some of the metals are extracted by turning them into a gas or liquid using high heat in a vacuum. Knowing at what temperature a certain metal becomes a gas helps remove some of the metals, but most are removed while in their liquid state. The problem with heating them to a gas is it causes certain elements to combine which is something they don't want to happen.
If you have enough of any type of metal in a heated oven, they will seek their own level so some can be drawn off from each level. But this is more complex that using gradually increasing temperatures and pouring off the metal that is liquid at that set temperature. Many ways to achieve a goal, and every company has their own way of doing it as efficiently as possible.
Small electronics like cell phones, radios, watches, and other electronics are literally pulverized almost to dust.
And they go through several stages of separation. Some by magnetism, some by liquid tower separation mostly to remove the plastics, and then electronics was used to isolate the other metals, but they never disclosed how they did it.
I do know some of the plastics are burned and they use like a still to condense the gaseous elements back into liquids. But no place you get to tour will tell you how they achieve their trade secret methods of operation. They only show you the larger self-explanatory methods. They did say the plastics recovery system work on the same principle as a refinery.
On a similar note: Pot metal was used quite heavily when making older cars. Most pot metal was made from recycled metals, mostly tin scraps and often with some iron, that were to costly to try and separate further, back then.
This means there is often a small amount of silver, gold, lead, and copper in each pot metal casting.
With the technology we have today, enough precious metals can be gleaned from old pot metal automotive components to make the process profitable.
Similar to what your article stated, some of the metals are extracted by turning them into a gas or liquid using high heat in a vacuum. Knowing at what temperature a certain metal becomes a gas helps remove some of the metals, but most are removed while in their liquid state. The problem with heating them to a gas is it causes certain elements to combine which is something they don't want to happen.
If you have enough of any type of metal in a heated oven, they will seek their own level so some can be drawn off from each level. But this is more complex that using gradually increasing temperatures and pouring off the metal that is liquid at that set temperature. Many ways to achieve a goal, and every company has their own way of doing it as efficiently as possible.
Re: Avatar Issues
The benefits of recycling must outweigh the faults to make it profitable. And, you know those recycling centers would not exist if they were not profitable. I suppose that's why oil refineries exist as well. Those babies are not cheap to construct.
The biological separation method rang a bell in my belfry. I could not find the article today but I know I read something about cleaning up the Chernobyl mess that involved bacteria that ate plutonium (or uranium, I forget which). It would be fatal for humans to ingest radioactive elements like that but these bacteria loved the stuff. Apparently the bugs weren't good enough because it's still a ghost town for all but a few old time farmers - 150 according to Google. I wonder what those few people have that allows them to live with all that radiation. They must be aliens.
The biological separation method rang a bell in my belfry. I could not find the article today but I know I read something about cleaning up the Chernobyl mess that involved bacteria that ate plutonium (or uranium, I forget which). It would be fatal for humans to ingest radioactive elements like that but these bacteria loved the stuff. Apparently the bugs weren't good enough because it's still a ghost town for all but a few old time farmers - 150 according to Google. I wonder what those few people have that allows them to live with all that radiation. They must be aliens.
Re: Avatar Issues
I worry about them messing with certain bacteria, such as the one that can eat plastic in the ocean.
Who knows what they may mutate into once they get their fill of plastic, hi hi.
People worry way to much about our landfills. Future generations are going to find them as a wealth of materials they can recycle much more efficiently than we can today, if technology keeps moving forward the way it is currently going.
Heck, when I was digging out for our driveway extension. I hit a small dump used only by the family. It was common back then for them to have barrels to burn their waste in, and then empty the barrels into their dump pile area, which was usually a low spot far from the house.
I hit some old bottles that were still intact, a lot of porcelain items, and tons of zinc lids. Two five gallon buckets full of them to be exact, and the recycling center was glad to get them. Paid me about 30 bucks for all the metals I gleaned out of that pile.
I also hit their buried wastewater barrel. The barrel itself had long rusted away, but some of the thicker barrel components were still there. Debi's dad installed it around 1947 or '48. He dug a 4 foot diameter pit about 7 feet deep and filled it with super large gravel, larger than B gravel. Then set the barrel in it upside down with no lid, filled around the barrel with slightly smaller gravel and inside the barrel with the same gravel after he cut a 4 inch hole in the bottom to do so.
The top (bottom) of the barrel was about 3 feet below grade and a 2 inch pipe ran from the kitchen sink and under the driveway to it. They did not have an indoor bathroom until around 1958 when they installed a septic system, but even then only the toilet and tub went to the septic system. It wasn't until the sewer lines were installed around 1970 that they had to connect the sink to the new sewer line. They did not have piped in city water until around 1954 or '56, and even then it was only a spigot in the front yard down by the road. Just like at my own grandpa's house on my mom's side.
I hit a snag I overcome easily enough.
As you know, I've been copying files from my old IDE drives using a USB Docking Station connected to an old computer.
I had no problems of any kind copying the files onto that computer. But when I went to copy the files from that computers drive to an external main drive connected to another computer I started getting all kinds of errors.
Now the first few errors were permission errors, and even though I went to the folders and said Apply Permissions to Enclosed Files, it did not work. Somebody said I had to be Root to do that. If I went into Root it said Operation Not Supported.
Well, I knew I could do it easily enough using Command Line, and I knew I didn't even have to be Root to do it too. Just a simple chmod -R 755 /path-to-file-folders - Did that and they copied over just fine. I don't like to do it that way because then it changes all text files to executable. I know I could use some more coding to say make only folders executable and files not executable, unless they need to be executable. But I didn't have time to study up which codes did that. Since they are all datafiles anyhow, the only time it's a problem is if I try to open a text file it will ask if I want to run it or display it. I won't worry about that now until I get all the files sorted to where they go, then I can remove the executable flag from all the text files at once, hi hi.
One strange thing about Linux, maybe Windows too. When you move a file from one drive to another, it doesn't move the file (drag n drop), only copies it, which is sorta a good thing. But it does pop-up if a file is the same with a feature that lets you COMPARE the two files. However, it seems if you move or copy a file from a local folder to a local folder you don't get that option, it just says file already exists and gives you an opportunity to rename it. Which is what I did, adding a number 2 or 3 behind the file name.
Now I have to figure out a way to compare two files I've done this with to see if they are the same or different.
Not using command line to do it.
Who knows what they may mutate into once they get their fill of plastic, hi hi.
People worry way to much about our landfills. Future generations are going to find them as a wealth of materials they can recycle much more efficiently than we can today, if technology keeps moving forward the way it is currently going.
Heck, when I was digging out for our driveway extension. I hit a small dump used only by the family. It was common back then for them to have barrels to burn their waste in, and then empty the barrels into their dump pile area, which was usually a low spot far from the house.
I hit some old bottles that were still intact, a lot of porcelain items, and tons of zinc lids. Two five gallon buckets full of them to be exact, and the recycling center was glad to get them. Paid me about 30 bucks for all the metals I gleaned out of that pile.
I also hit their buried wastewater barrel. The barrel itself had long rusted away, but some of the thicker barrel components were still there. Debi's dad installed it around 1947 or '48. He dug a 4 foot diameter pit about 7 feet deep and filled it with super large gravel, larger than B gravel. Then set the barrel in it upside down with no lid, filled around the barrel with slightly smaller gravel and inside the barrel with the same gravel after he cut a 4 inch hole in the bottom to do so.
The top (bottom) of the barrel was about 3 feet below grade and a 2 inch pipe ran from the kitchen sink and under the driveway to it. They did not have an indoor bathroom until around 1958 when they installed a septic system, but even then only the toilet and tub went to the septic system. It wasn't until the sewer lines were installed around 1970 that they had to connect the sink to the new sewer line. They did not have piped in city water until around 1954 or '56, and even then it was only a spigot in the front yard down by the road. Just like at my own grandpa's house on my mom's side.
I hit a snag I overcome easily enough.
As you know, I've been copying files from my old IDE drives using a USB Docking Station connected to an old computer.
I had no problems of any kind copying the files onto that computer. But when I went to copy the files from that computers drive to an external main drive connected to another computer I started getting all kinds of errors.
Now the first few errors were permission errors, and even though I went to the folders and said Apply Permissions to Enclosed Files, it did not work. Somebody said I had to be Root to do that. If I went into Root it said Operation Not Supported.
Well, I knew I could do it easily enough using Command Line, and I knew I didn't even have to be Root to do it too. Just a simple chmod -R 755 /path-to-file-folders - Did that and they copied over just fine. I don't like to do it that way because then it changes all text files to executable. I know I could use some more coding to say make only folders executable and files not executable, unless they need to be executable. But I didn't have time to study up which codes did that. Since they are all datafiles anyhow, the only time it's a problem is if I try to open a text file it will ask if I want to run it or display it. I won't worry about that now until I get all the files sorted to where they go, then I can remove the executable flag from all the text files at once, hi hi.
One strange thing about Linux, maybe Windows too. When you move a file from one drive to another, it doesn't move the file (drag n drop), only copies it, which is sorta a good thing. But it does pop-up if a file is the same with a feature that lets you COMPARE the two files. However, it seems if you move or copy a file from a local folder to a local folder you don't get that option, it just says file already exists and gives you an opportunity to rename it. Which is what I did, adding a number 2 or 3 behind the file name.
Now I have to figure out a way to compare two files I've done this with to see if they are the same or different.
Not using command line to do it.
Re: Avatar Issues
There are a lot of folks worried about messing with organisms and genes. Most of those people are not biologists and have a poor to no understanding of what is going on. There is nothing we can do to alter the genetics that can't be done by random mutations. The only difference is the source of the mutation; cosmic rays or human intervention, e.g.. The problem with landfills is similar to the problem with cemeteries. They both take up valuable land space. Neither one is gong to deteriorate rapidly. You might be right about the potential for mining landfills at some distant point in the future. However, I'm guessing the landfills will be here long after humans go extinct.
As far as file permissions go, this article in Wikipedia has a great table in it to show you what it all means: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_system_permissions I've been doing a lot of copying and moving of files lately and permissions are only half the problem. Ownership may be incorrect even if directory permissions aren't. I'm not sure why you would want a directory executable but not it's contents. Generally it's the other way around. There are GUI's that will help you set both ownership and permissions, but I prefer the command line. It's more familiar and natural to me. But, to each their own I suppose.
Windows, by the way, does give you the option to move or copy when you drag-and-drop. Existing ownership and permissions do not change when you do either.
As far as file permissions go, this article in Wikipedia has a great table in it to show you what it all means: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_system_permissions I've been doing a lot of copying and moving of files lately and permissions are only half the problem. Ownership may be incorrect even if directory permissions aren't. I'm not sure why you would want a directory executable but not it's contents. Generally it's the other way around. There are GUI's that will help you set both ownership and permissions, but I prefer the command line. It's more familiar and natural to me. But, to each their own I suppose.
Windows, by the way, does give you the option to move or copy when you drag-and-drop. Existing ownership and permissions do not change when you do either.
Re: Avatar Issues
Well, neither Windows nor NTFS storage systems have the types of permission levels you find on Linux files.
The only aggravation about doing a global permission change on a folder with lots of sub-folders and files is when you go to open a file, like a text file for example, if the Execute Flag is set, it will ask you if you want to Run or Display the file.
Even so, it is not a problem to go remove the execute flag from all text files.
You could do it by adding something like -aD -xF, to the chmod string, not those exact letters I used here though, hi hi.
I copied my IDE folders and files to the old Dell computer, no problems at all since the docking station was plugged into the Dell computer. It was when I went to copy the files over the LAN from the Dell to an external drive connected to another computer where I hit the permission problems.
But as I said, it was an easy fix to just chmod the folders and files to 755, hi hi.
One I have everything sorted and compared to existing files, I will then change the folders to what they should be.
Since my comment yesterday, I did learn that trying to compare files is much easier to do when moving from one drive to another, but not to the same drive. The compare will pop-up automatically and even show you the differences, then it will allow you to meld the one with added changes to the one without, or not meld them and store them separately under a new file name. Still a pain to go through though, hi hi.
The only aggravation about doing a global permission change on a folder with lots of sub-folders and files is when you go to open a file, like a text file for example, if the Execute Flag is set, it will ask you if you want to Run or Display the file.
Even so, it is not a problem to go remove the execute flag from all text files.
You could do it by adding something like -aD -xF, to the chmod string, not those exact letters I used here though, hi hi.
I copied my IDE folders and files to the old Dell computer, no problems at all since the docking station was plugged into the Dell computer. It was when I went to copy the files over the LAN from the Dell to an external drive connected to another computer where I hit the permission problems.
But as I said, it was an easy fix to just chmod the folders and files to 755, hi hi.
One I have everything sorted and compared to existing files, I will then change the folders to what they should be.
Since my comment yesterday, I did learn that trying to compare files is much easier to do when moving from one drive to another, but not to the same drive. The compare will pop-up automatically and even show you the differences, then it will allow you to meld the one with added changes to the one without, or not meld them and store them separately under a new file name. Still a pain to go through though, hi hi.
Re: Avatar Issues
I realize you are not as familiar with Windows as you are with Linux, but that statement is not totally accurate. All the permissions and group assignments you see in Linux are under the Properties/Security tab on any given file in Windows. The difference is that Windows spells it out in clear understandable English while Linux uses binary coding and alpah characters that require a previous knowledge to understand.Well, neither Windows nor NTFS storage systems have the types of permission levels you find on Linux files.
The only time I run into a need for file comparison is when I update the software to this website. The automatic install process nearly always fails and frequently cites files I have installed that they claim have been modified. Then they give me the option to see the differences, replace the original, keep them both, or merge. I find this extremely frustrating because I never modify the software. Lately I have changed my methods. I no longer use the automatic updates but instead rename all the existing files and upload a fresh set of new files. There is no file comparison in that case.
Then again, I'm not curating an archive as you are doing. You have to be more critical and accurate than I do.
Re: Avatar Issues
Could be, it has been a long time since I've done anything using Windows computers that have to do with moving or changing files. Other than the few times I need to fix something for the frau on her Windows 7 computer.
I don't recall ever having a permission problem on Windows computers, even when I was swapping things around to all of my computers and back n forth.
Unless a file was locked by a user, I never got permission denied either.
However, that being said, most people run Windows computers in Administrative Mode 24/7.
Whereas I have always only used them in User Mode, and if I had to do something with the system, had to log off as user and log back in as administrator. This probably saved me from getting hit with some viruses over the years.
I don't recall ever having a permission problem on Windows computers, even when I was swapping things around to all of my computers and back n forth.
Unless a file was locked by a user, I never got permission denied either.
However, that being said, most people run Windows computers in Administrative Mode 24/7.
Whereas I have always only used them in User Mode, and if I had to do something with the system, had to log off as user and log back in as administrator. This probably saved me from getting hit with some viruses over the years.
Re: Avatar Issues
You are correct to say Windows is run as administrator. However, in spite of what you and Microsoft insist, there are several places that need confirmation from the administrator to perform a given action. Looking at the system's logs, for example, it takes an OK from the user after being warned that only administrators can do this. I don't get the point of the warning if I"m truly the admin. Microsoft is just assuming the user is too stupid to know what is involved with being admin so that they feel the need to warn you on occasion. When installing the OS for the first time the default user is the admin, but any smart person such as yourself would create a regular user account too. It's not a matter of protecting you from viruses. You should be protecting yourself from your own mistakes. Linux is much more straight forward in this regard. The default user is not administrator, but can easy act as one using the su/sudo commands. Six of one - half a doze of the other. 
I've taken a liking to Mageia's (Fedora) approach. The installation requires two separate user accounts. One is root and one is regular. You are one or the other and cannot be both during any given session.
I've taken a liking to Mageia's (Fedora) approach. The installation requires two separate user accounts. One is root and one is regular. You are one or the other and cannot be both during any given session.
Re: Avatar Issues
Debian is a little more strict than Ubuntu or LInux Mint.
Although it appears you can go into Root using su or sudo, you are actually only going into Administrative Mode.
You can do a lot of Root things in Administrative Mode, but not some deep down things that requires full-root access.
In Ubuntu and Linux you only have one password and can get into Administrative mode with it, without logging out and back in as Root.
In Debian, you have User Mode, Administrative Mode, and Root, each of those have different passwords.
To get into the deep-root, you do have to reboot into Root Mode using the Root Password.
Although, nearly everything someone would normally need to do as Root can be done in Administrative Mode.
But there are some things where you must be logged in as ROOT to make changes.
So far, I've never had to do anything that required full-root access except when I had to recompile the kernel to get a video driver as part of it, and that was eons ago now. For me it is best not to mess around that deep into the system, hi hi.
Although it appears you can go into Root using su or sudo, you are actually only going into Administrative Mode.
You can do a lot of Root things in Administrative Mode, but not some deep down things that requires full-root access.
In Ubuntu and Linux you only have one password and can get into Administrative mode with it, without logging out and back in as Root.
In Debian, you have User Mode, Administrative Mode, and Root, each of those have different passwords.
To get into the deep-root, you do have to reboot into Root Mode using the Root Password.
Although, nearly everything someone would normally need to do as Root can be done in Administrative Mode.
But there are some things where you must be logged in as ROOT to make changes.
So far, I've never had to do anything that required full-root access except when I had to recompile the kernel to get a video driver as part of it, and that was eons ago now. For me it is best not to mess around that deep into the system, hi hi.
Re: Avatar Issues
When you dig deep into Windows Groups and Permissions there literally are more than a dozen effective permission levels, or roles, you can assign to an object. You can set a document to be deleted by a specific user group, but not written to, for example. I don't know if you can get to that degree of granularity in Linux. I don't know of a reason why you would want to. LOL Actually I do know of reasons but none of them apply to a computer with a single user.
Debian is a PIA as far as I'm concerned. I have a gParted live USB that is Debian. It's a lot like that famous boot repair disk floating around Linux Land in that there are a few things beyond partition management that can be done. One of the things that cannot be done is booting this live USB on my laptop; you know, the one that is UEFI with Windows and Linux all on the same SSD. It appears to have problems with the video card, much the same as similar problems I've overcome with Ubuntu. The really strange thing is this same gParted on a Stick will boot on the ASUS tower, also UEFI with Windows. The video card is identical too. In fact the only substantial difference is the lappie has Windows 10 vs Windows 7 in the tower.
So, I go to the gParted Live forums expecting some guidance. I explain the situation and document the system specs. Then I wait. And wait. And after a few days some board mod decides to answer. The answer was to do all those things I've already tried which are listed in the gParted Live manual. I explain that I already did that. Then the moderator decided it's something peculiar with Debian and the group developing the live version did all they can. It's an upstream problem now.
Good answer, but I would have appreciated him being more honest and simply saying he has no idea why I am seeing a problem. I guess he expects me to go to some Debian forum and find a developer and then complain that the guys who are modifying their OS (because it's free and open source and they just can) sent me to get a problem solved. All I can say is that I have to agree with you when you say Debian is different.
Debian is a PIA as far as I'm concerned. I have a gParted live USB that is Debian. It's a lot like that famous boot repair disk floating around Linux Land in that there are a few things beyond partition management that can be done. One of the things that cannot be done is booting this live USB on my laptop; you know, the one that is UEFI with Windows and Linux all on the same SSD. It appears to have problems with the video card, much the same as similar problems I've overcome with Ubuntu. The really strange thing is this same gParted on a Stick will boot on the ASUS tower, also UEFI with Windows. The video card is identical too. In fact the only substantial difference is the lappie has Windows 10 vs Windows 7 in the tower.
So, I go to the gParted Live forums expecting some guidance. I explain the situation and document the system specs. Then I wait. And wait. And after a few days some board mod decides to answer. The answer was to do all those things I've already tried which are listed in the gParted Live manual. I explain that I already did that. Then the moderator decided it's something peculiar with Debian and the group developing the live version did all they can. It's an upstream problem now.
Good answer, but I would have appreciated him being more honest and simply saying he has no idea why I am seeing a problem. I guess he expects me to go to some Debian forum and find a developer and then complain that the guys who are modifying their OS (because it's free and open source and they just can) sent me to get a problem solved. All I can say is that I have to agree with you when you say Debian is different.
Re: Avatar Issues
In most Debian based LInux Distro's, you have umpteen zillion settings you can put on a folder or a file.
You can only allow certain individuals access to a file, and only give a couple of those the ability to change the file.
You can assign groups of people access to a file, such as Marketing Department can access this folder and files.
But then each file can be made invisible to some, read only to others, and again only one or two can change files.
You can also give public access to a single file in a folder and make it read only. Such as the list of products for sale.
As with most OSs, including Windows, you can assign folders and files to certain users, including Root, Administrator, Users, or to only a specific program. Let's say you have a group of salesmen out on the street, and one may have a program that allows them to enter personal data for insurance or take a credit card, but he has to use a specific program for that data. In this case, only the Program Itself has access to that data. Or in the case of taking credit cards, only the credit card companies program has access to the data. This way no one can see the credit card number, or the pin number, only the credit card company. It's also a safety feature that prevents a salesman from cobbing the credit card number or reusing it to buy something themselves, hi hi.
You can only allow certain individuals access to a file, and only give a couple of those the ability to change the file.
You can assign groups of people access to a file, such as Marketing Department can access this folder and files.
But then each file can be made invisible to some, read only to others, and again only one or two can change files.
You can also give public access to a single file in a folder and make it read only. Such as the list of products for sale.
As with most OSs, including Windows, you can assign folders and files to certain users, including Root, Administrator, Users, or to only a specific program. Let's say you have a group of salesmen out on the street, and one may have a program that allows them to enter personal data for insurance or take a credit card, but he has to use a specific program for that data. In this case, only the Program Itself has access to that data. Or in the case of taking credit cards, only the credit card companies program has access to the data. This way no one can see the credit card number, or the pin number, only the credit card company. It's also a safety feature that prevents a salesman from cobbing the credit card number or reusing it to buy something themselves, hi hi.
Re: Avatar Issues
As far as I can surmise both Debian and Windows have the same degree of control over file permissions. They may simply go about setting them differently. Every time I run into a Debian derivation there are always problems. I would guess that Fedora would win the prize for the number of available options, but they more or less make sense. Not true with Debian, or at least in the various distros based on Debian. Some day I may install bare metal and see for myself what you are talking about.
Re: Avatar Issues
The three major Linux operating systems are GNU/Debian, BSD, and RedHat.
And like Windows, Mac, and Linux, the programs are not normally interchangeable.
From what I understand BSD is supposed to be the best and most stable of all of them.
However, like Windows has garnered the Desktop PC market, GNU/Debian has garnered the home PC Linux market.
GNU/Linux is the go-between between the CPU and the OS for Debian and OS's built on top of Debian.
Both BSD, and RedHat have their own go-between they control.
OK, so I don't know the technical terms, hi hi.
I played around with the early RedHat when it was available to home users. Found it too hard for me back then, so stayed away from Linux until Windows came out with Vista. This pushed me to look at Linux again, and although I started out with Ubuntu, I did look at CentOS the RedHat clone, and for a short time at BSD based Linux.
An Ubuntu distribution upgrade when they started their main program looking like a cell phone, even though I had loaded the classic version, is when I looked at Debian. Debian let me do what I wanted to do, and although not turn-key I had learned enough to get it up and running, and without all the bloat of Ubuntu. It was much faster than Ubuntu on programs that used a lot of CPU cycles. Been using Debian ever since, but still have Linux Mint on the side, because there are things I like about Linux Mint, even though it is built on top of Ubuntu.
I know you won't agree with this, but once you get used to using Linux and do so all day everyday, having to fall back to Windows for anything is like stepping back 20 years as far as technology goes.
I do know Windows is beginning to add things to make it more like Linux, but even so, when I have to do something on my frau's computer, it takes me forever because Windows just don't have the features I use in Linux.
And like Windows, Mac, and Linux, the programs are not normally interchangeable.
From what I understand BSD is supposed to be the best and most stable of all of them.
However, like Windows has garnered the Desktop PC market, GNU/Debian has garnered the home PC Linux market.
GNU/Linux is the go-between between the CPU and the OS for Debian and OS's built on top of Debian.
Both BSD, and RedHat have their own go-between they control.
OK, so I don't know the technical terms, hi hi.
I played around with the early RedHat when it was available to home users. Found it too hard for me back then, so stayed away from Linux until Windows came out with Vista. This pushed me to look at Linux again, and although I started out with Ubuntu, I did look at CentOS the RedHat clone, and for a short time at BSD based Linux.
An Ubuntu distribution upgrade when they started their main program looking like a cell phone, even though I had loaded the classic version, is when I looked at Debian. Debian let me do what I wanted to do, and although not turn-key I had learned enough to get it up and running, and without all the bloat of Ubuntu. It was much faster than Ubuntu on programs that used a lot of CPU cycles. Been using Debian ever since, but still have Linux Mint on the side, because there are things I like about Linux Mint, even though it is built on top of Ubuntu.
I know you won't agree with this, but once you get used to using Linux and do so all day everyday, having to fall back to Windows for anything is like stepping back 20 years as far as technology goes.
I do know Windows is beginning to add things to make it more like Linux, but even so, when I have to do something on my frau's computer, it takes me forever because Windows just don't have the features I use in Linux.
Re: Avatar Issues
I do believe that every distro of Linux I ever evaluated was an expansion of the original. Fedora was my first exposure to Linux and it looked pretty much like a bare bone Windows desktop. In fact it impressed me so much as being nothing special that I went right over to Windows Vista and abandoned Linux altogether. LOL After getting Vista tamed down I went back to examining Linux. This time I downloaded and installed BSD. All I got was an X-term and nothing else. I checked around a bit and discovered it to be exactly what you say. If you want a BSD Linux operating system, you must build one. I'm pretty sure they wanted me to compile the kernel after that, which is why I went back to Vista scratching my head and wondering why anybody would ever use BSD. Yes, Vista was a lot easier to understand back then. My next look at Linux was Ubuntu and our dearly departed friend Glen had a lot to do with that. He was more than helpful and encouraging, plus when I actually got around to installing it, it all made sense. The best part was it worked out of the box.
Your chances of convincing me I can get used to Linux and abandon Windows are about the same as me convincing you to go back to Windows. It's apparent to me that both operating systems can meet the needs of all people. The caveat is that everyone has different needs and there is a specific OS to cater to them. You and I have two different approaches to computing and I think we are both using what suits our needs. There is some overlap which can be accommodated by either Linux or Windows, but as it stands at the moment Windows fills all my needs.
Your chances of convincing me I can get used to Linux and abandon Windows are about the same as me convincing you to go back to Windows. It's apparent to me that both operating systems can meet the needs of all people. The caveat is that everyone has different needs and there is a specific OS to cater to them. You and I have two different approaches to computing and I think we are both using what suits our needs. There is some overlap which can be accommodated by either Linux or Windows, but as it stands at the moment Windows fills all my needs.
Re: Avatar Issues
I know you can open programs in Windows and move around between then, and they all sit down in the systray.
But the point here is, they technically close or hibernate when you do that.
In Linux we can do the same thing, but we also have Workspaces, I keep 12 of them in my lower panel.
I have #10, 11, & 12 with open text files I use several times a day, two #8 & 9 with programs running in terminal that I hit an F-key to activate, plus another terminal in #2 I use for calculations. #1 is this browser, and I use the others to open folders and files as I'm working. I can set a folder on the lower left of the screen and one on the upper right, sorta like tiling, and show both at once or bounce back and forth between them.
It is this feature of Linux why I get so frustrated trying to do something on the frau's computer when she asks for help.
I have to put whatever she has running down in the systray in order to open something else. Then I can bounce back and forth between them if need be, but I cannot move one on top of the other unless there is some trick to do that.
I guess it is just what one gets used to using, and they learn how best to do things on their system.
Speaking of which. Although I have a wide screen monitor, because I view it through my desk, I keep the resolution set to a square screen like days of yore. My upper monitor shows full-width by stretching a square to a rectangle. I could change the resolution for that screen if I wanted to.
But I brought it up, because I've noticed several of the kids at the library who are running Linux are putting their panels on the sides instead of top and bottom like I do. This way things like browsers have more vertical space to work in. Almost like being in full-screen mode, except you still have access to everything.
I would say about half of those I see using Linux have their screen set to what I call Schmartz-Fonz mode, hi hi.
Instead of having a simple drop down box, they have to scroll back and forth through rows of Icons to find what they want.
The one boy I see up there most often has a BIG folder that says HOMEWORK under it, as the first folder in his row of folders. He doesn't show file extensions which would drive me crazy. Said he don't even use them most of the time. Linux computers don't really need extensions like Windows requires. So if you wanted to name a photo MomsCake it would open up in a photo viewer whether it was a bmp, jpg, tif, etc. But for me, I want to know what file type it is.
But the point here is, they technically close or hibernate when you do that.
In Linux we can do the same thing, but we also have Workspaces, I keep 12 of them in my lower panel.
I have #10, 11, & 12 with open text files I use several times a day, two #8 & 9 with programs running in terminal that I hit an F-key to activate, plus another terminal in #2 I use for calculations. #1 is this browser, and I use the others to open folders and files as I'm working. I can set a folder on the lower left of the screen and one on the upper right, sorta like tiling, and show both at once or bounce back and forth between them.
It is this feature of Linux why I get so frustrated trying to do something on the frau's computer when she asks for help.
I have to put whatever she has running down in the systray in order to open something else. Then I can bounce back and forth between them if need be, but I cannot move one on top of the other unless there is some trick to do that.
I guess it is just what one gets used to using, and they learn how best to do things on their system.
Speaking of which. Although I have a wide screen monitor, because I view it through my desk, I keep the resolution set to a square screen like days of yore. My upper monitor shows full-width by stretching a square to a rectangle. I could change the resolution for that screen if I wanted to.
But I brought it up, because I've noticed several of the kids at the library who are running Linux are putting their panels on the sides instead of top and bottom like I do. This way things like browsers have more vertical space to work in. Almost like being in full-screen mode, except you still have access to everything.
I would say about half of those I see using Linux have their screen set to what I call Schmartz-Fonz mode, hi hi.
Instead of having a simple drop down box, they have to scroll back and forth through rows of Icons to find what they want.
The one boy I see up there most often has a BIG folder that says HOMEWORK under it, as the first folder in his row of folders. He doesn't show file extensions which would drive me crazy. Said he don't even use them most of the time. Linux computers don't really need extensions like Windows requires. So if you wanted to name a photo MomsCake it would open up in a photo viewer whether it was a bmp, jpg, tif, etc. But for me, I want to know what file type it is.
Re: Avatar Issues
It goes under different names, but those multiple desktop environments you require are also available in Windows 10. I believe there is 3rd party software to simulate it in lower versions of Windows, but I've never found that feature useful for my needs. In fact the Mageia (Fedora) Linux install I have on the laptop has four workspaces in what you would call the task bar - they call it something else in Linux because, well, it's not Windows. LOL I have an open ticket that nobody has been able to answer about those workspaces. I want to eliminate them, or at least cut them down from four useless spaces to one useful one. There are settings that claim to do just that, but in my case they don't. So, in Mageia I have a lot of environments that I don't need or want. The problem is that certain mouse gestures will switch to one of the unused workspaces and upset the routine of what I'm doing in the active session.
Each of those wrkspaces do indeed have reserved memory. It's not as heavy on the system resources as would be a virtual machine, for example, but a lot of memory is consumed. I think your 11 idle workspaces is what benefited from all that RAM in the silver Yogi. I don't think the unused ones actually hibernate because that would involve writing a copy of each one to hard disk. Doing that is time consuming and would affect the response of your system. More than likely there is a special mode or they all sleep which writes the status of all your open packages to RAM. That's a lot quicker when it comes to jumping between windows.
I'm not sure why you have problems stacking open applications. The only issue I can see is your desktop would be exceptionally crowded if you had 24 programs open and running all at once. It's not that Windows can't handle that, but you would have to sort through a lot of open windows to get where you want to be. Then again, sorting through 12 workspaces has to be a slight chore as well.
There are pros and cons to icons verses drop-down menus. You and I grew up on the drop-downs, but when I explore a new version of Linux I waste a whole lot of time looking for something that isn't where I expect it to be. Ultimately it may not be there at all and I have to install it. With the active charms in Windows or snap apps for Ubuntu it's all pretty clear. You would say cluttered. All I can say is that when you spend more than half your life looking at icons, you don't want to be bothered with the old drop-down menus.
Each of those wrkspaces do indeed have reserved memory. It's not as heavy on the system resources as would be a virtual machine, for example, but a lot of memory is consumed. I think your 11 idle workspaces is what benefited from all that RAM in the silver Yogi. I don't think the unused ones actually hibernate because that would involve writing a copy of each one to hard disk. Doing that is time consuming and would affect the response of your system. More than likely there is a special mode or they all sleep which writes the status of all your open packages to RAM. That's a lot quicker when it comes to jumping between windows.
I'm not sure why you have problems stacking open applications. The only issue I can see is your desktop would be exceptionally crowded if you had 24 programs open and running all at once. It's not that Windows can't handle that, but you would have to sort through a lot of open windows to get where you want to be. Then again, sorting through 12 workspaces has to be a slight chore as well.
There are pros and cons to icons verses drop-down menus. You and I grew up on the drop-downs, but when I explore a new version of Linux I waste a whole lot of time looking for something that isn't where I expect it to be. Ultimately it may not be there at all and I have to install it. With the active charms in Windows or snap apps for Ubuntu it's all pretty clear. You would say cluttered. All I can say is that when you spend more than half your life looking at icons, you don't want to be bothered with the old drop-down menus.
Re: Avatar Issues
I've never actually studied how the Workspaces actually work, but they are not using up memory or cache.
I can clear my cache and what I have in them does not go away.
The biggest difference about moving a program into the systray or bottom panel on Linux is the program is not working, it is sleeping so to speak, waiting for you to open it again.
While using workspaces allows the program to keep running, so in that case, yes it is using resources, the same as if I tiled two screens side by side.
I've tested both putting a screen into the lower panel as well as moving off the workspace, by using a super high resolution image that takes a while to load. Now, even after the image has loaded, if I put that screen into the lower panel and open it again, it has to reload the image or group of images. But if I have it open in a Workspace and move to another workspace, if I jump back to the workspace, there it is instantly without reloading. So yes it is using up memory somewhere, probably part of RAM, I say that since I can clear my cache and it doesn't affect what is in my workspaces.
I can use one of the workspaces to go into root, open terminal as root, and use this code
"# sync; echo 1 > /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches"
and my CPU monitor shows the cache is empty, at least until I do something.
But even after I do that, and jump to the workspace with the heavy graphics, it opens instantly.
So, based on that, I would say there is a big difference between dropping a screen down into the systray or panel and just moving from one workspace to another. Oh, I've always had a lot of workspaces open, even when I only had 2 gigs of memory. But, back then, if I did something that needed the RAM thing in my workspaces was using, it may close whatever I had running in that workspace, usually closing something not running first, like a textfile I left open.
I can clear my cache and what I have in them does not go away.
The biggest difference about moving a program into the systray or bottom panel on Linux is the program is not working, it is sleeping so to speak, waiting for you to open it again.
While using workspaces allows the program to keep running, so in that case, yes it is using resources, the same as if I tiled two screens side by side.
I've tested both putting a screen into the lower panel as well as moving off the workspace, by using a super high resolution image that takes a while to load. Now, even after the image has loaded, if I put that screen into the lower panel and open it again, it has to reload the image or group of images. But if I have it open in a Workspace and move to another workspace, if I jump back to the workspace, there it is instantly without reloading. So yes it is using up memory somewhere, probably part of RAM, I say that since I can clear my cache and it doesn't affect what is in my workspaces.
I can use one of the workspaces to go into root, open terminal as root, and use this code
"# sync; echo 1 > /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches"
and my CPU monitor shows the cache is empty, at least until I do something.
But even after I do that, and jump to the workspace with the heavy graphics, it opens instantly.
So, based on that, I would say there is a big difference between dropping a screen down into the systray or panel and just moving from one workspace to another. Oh, I've always had a lot of workspaces open, even when I only had 2 gigs of memory. But, back then, if I did something that needed the RAM thing in my workspaces was using, it may close whatever I had running in that workspace, usually closing something not running first, like a textfile I left open.
Re: Avatar Issues
I think you have the concept down pat. Those workspaces go to "sleep" when you close their window, but the programs sitting silent in the lower panel are actually hibernating. To be honest I don't know what Linux cache is, but I'd guess it is not RAM. It's probably somewhere on your hard drive and thus can be cleared or even missing and will not affect the status of your idle workspaces because THAT information is in RAM. Looking directly into the /proc/sys/vm directory shows a bunch of read-only files; one of them is drop_caches. When you do a cat drop_caches a single number, zero, is displayed. None of this makes sense to me, like most of Linux, but apparently it's there for a reason.