I never was a sirloin fan until my wife mentioned that was her favorite kind of beef. I get ground sirloin from time to time but the steaks are outrageously expensive. I loved to use delmonico cut beef back home, but it's not readily available down here in MO. They sell rib eye which apparently is the same or very close to what I used to get. Lately I've been buying NY strip if I can get the Angus beef variety, and when the sirloin steak looks good (almost always) I get one of those and divide it in half. That's more than enough for the two of us.
The recipe I wrote out is basically something I saw a chef do on public television many years ago. When it's done right the outside of the steak is nearly charred and the inside is pink. The temperature measurement is critical if you want it on the rare side. Otherwise pressing it with a fork to see how tender it is works well enough with 4 minutes per side. Sometimes it doesn't which is why I use the thermometer.
I will buy old meat that might be less pink than the fresh stuff because it is generally marked down for quick sale. I would be very suspicious of something half price, however. LOL
One More Reason
Re: One More Reason
Well, you do have to know your store and how they roll to know if you are getting fresh meats or week old stuff.
Our discount grocer added a new meat department and the do undersell everyone else by a good margin.
They have a list of the Farms, Slaughterhouses, and butchers who handle the meat, and a really nice flow chart showing the time from when the Angus leaves the farm, until it ends up on their meat cooler shelves for sale.
This sorta POed the chain stores like Kroger and others, because their meat is several days older do to the shipping to a distribution warehouse first, then to the stores, hi hi.
My wife picked me up a loaf of Cinnamon Swirl bread, and another loaf of Rye bread.
The little plastic tags on them showed $4.19 and $4.29 respectively. This is a dollar higher than normal prices.
But, these are the prices Kroger is getting for the same brands and styles of bread.
When it was $3.19 and $3.29, I used to brag about us getting it for $1.69 and $1.89.
Well, now they are $2.49, and $2.89, which is still a lot cheaper than Kroger or Walmart.
Yes it is considered one day old, but it usually overstock not left at the other stores, so is same day quite often.
It takes me about 4 days to go through a loaf of bread anyhow.
And since I know they only make for e.g. Rye Bread once a week at the bakery.
What is being put on the shelves at the grocery stores each day, can be up to a week old already, on that particular bread.
Debi came up with the color codes used by the bakeries for breads going to our local discount grocer. I've never seen bread there more than a day old, but on sale if it hits 2 days old, if they have any left that is.
But the bakery is tricky. The rye bread is not dated on the day it is made, the cellophane wrapper gets put into a vinyl sleeve, the normal bread sleeve, and that is the date they put on the package, hi hi.
The things you learn when you dig into things.
All of the meats that were grilled, when I had the restaurant, were already pre-packaged in portion sizes.
So if we had the grill at the proper temperature, we knew exactly how long to cook each one on each side, for the doneness the customer ordered. The times on a grill are a bit different for a char-broiler which is not as hot as a griddle. Even though you would think something with flames would be hotter than a steel plate, hi hi.
They are two totally different cooking styles. A grill is often 400 to 450 degrees on the surface, while a char-broiler is 350 degrees 1 inch above the grate. If you measure the grate temperature it is often up around 450 to 500, until the flames flare up, hi hi. I may be off on the actual temps as it has been over 40 years since I had a restaurant.
Our discount grocer added a new meat department and the do undersell everyone else by a good margin.
They have a list of the Farms, Slaughterhouses, and butchers who handle the meat, and a really nice flow chart showing the time from when the Angus leaves the farm, until it ends up on their meat cooler shelves for sale.
This sorta POed the chain stores like Kroger and others, because their meat is several days older do to the shipping to a distribution warehouse first, then to the stores, hi hi.
My wife picked me up a loaf of Cinnamon Swirl bread, and another loaf of Rye bread.
The little plastic tags on them showed $4.19 and $4.29 respectively. This is a dollar higher than normal prices.
But, these are the prices Kroger is getting for the same brands and styles of bread.
When it was $3.19 and $3.29, I used to brag about us getting it for $1.69 and $1.89.
Well, now they are $2.49, and $2.89, which is still a lot cheaper than Kroger or Walmart.
Yes it is considered one day old, but it usually overstock not left at the other stores, so is same day quite often.
It takes me about 4 days to go through a loaf of bread anyhow.
And since I know they only make for e.g. Rye Bread once a week at the bakery.
What is being put on the shelves at the grocery stores each day, can be up to a week old already, on that particular bread.
Debi came up with the color codes used by the bakeries for breads going to our local discount grocer. I've never seen bread there more than a day old, but on sale if it hits 2 days old, if they have any left that is.
But the bakery is tricky. The rye bread is not dated on the day it is made, the cellophane wrapper gets put into a vinyl sleeve, the normal bread sleeve, and that is the date they put on the package, hi hi.
The things you learn when you dig into things.
All of the meats that were grilled, when I had the restaurant, were already pre-packaged in portion sizes.
So if we had the grill at the proper temperature, we knew exactly how long to cook each one on each side, for the doneness the customer ordered. The times on a grill are a bit different for a char-broiler which is not as hot as a griddle. Even though you would think something with flames would be hotter than a steel plate, hi hi.
They are two totally different cooking styles. A grill is often 400 to 450 degrees on the surface, while a char-broiler is 350 degrees 1 inch above the grate. If you measure the grate temperature it is often up around 450 to 500, until the flames flare up, hi hi. I may be off on the actual temps as it has been over 40 years since I had a restaurant.
Re: One More Reason
I only have one problem with bread and that is getting the exact kind I like. I favor rye bread over all else and it is readily available in all the stores of O'Fallon. Not one of them make it properly, however. At least it's not proper for my sense of taste which requires a crispy crust. Ever since you told me about the Pepperidge Farm bakeries and the colored tags they attach, I now look to see what is up front and what color the tags are in back of those aisle facing breads. It's often the same but on occasion the tags are different and, of course, I take the loaf from the back on the assumption it is fresher. I don't care what the loaf of bread costs as much as I care about the quality of the product. Schnucks bakes something in house that is acceptable but it's rarely on the shelves before 11 AM. I am generally finished shopping well before that so that I end up with the Pepperidge Farm stuff.
Old meat can be more desirable that fresh meat. My favorite butcher shop has fresh sirloin steaks for $1.00 less than the aged steaks sitting right next to them. I asked how long they were aged and was told two weeks. So, there you go. Two week old meat is apparently more desirable than fresh off the butcher block. At least in O'Fallon that seems to be the case.
Old meat can be more desirable that fresh meat. My favorite butcher shop has fresh sirloin steaks for $1.00 less than the aged steaks sitting right next to them. I asked how long they were aged and was told two weeks. So, there you go. Two week old meat is apparently more desirable than fresh off the butcher block. At least in O'Fallon that seems to be the case.
Re: One More Reason
The color code on breads tells you when it was baked, but this can fool you, because different bakeries use different colors.
For e.g. the common ones used by Wonder Bread and their subsidiaries are:
Blue-Monday, Green-Tuesday, Red-Thursday, White-Friday, Yellow-Saturday.
Notice the above colors are in alphabetical order!
But for Arnold Bakery and others they are:
Brown-Monday, Orange-Tuesday, Yellow-Thursday, Blue-Friday, Red-Saturday.
On specialty breads, they have yet another color code:
You will find Beige, Pink, Light Green, Light Blue, Light Yellow.
I rarely if ever find a different color than Beige on Arnold Rye Bread, which makes sense since it is only baked once per week.
This probably holds true for Pepperidge Farm also.
I do know when they deliver Rye bread, and Specialty breads, ALL of those on the shelf are removed before the new supply is put in place. And in the case of our local discount store, all breads removed from the main shelf and moved over to the discount shelf have a Black twisty wire added to them, or a black mark made on the tag. Plus some other type of mark so the cashiers know you didn't swap tags to get fresh bread for the half off price.
I may be wrong about this, but it sounds like the type of Rye Bread you like is called French Baked Rye Bread.
It has a crispy crust and the bread is slightly more dense.
I don't think Aged Meats mean they are just older, hi hi.
For e.g. the common ones used by Wonder Bread and their subsidiaries are:
Blue-Monday, Green-Tuesday, Red-Thursday, White-Friday, Yellow-Saturday.
Notice the above colors are in alphabetical order!
But for Arnold Bakery and others they are:
Brown-Monday, Orange-Tuesday, Yellow-Thursday, Blue-Friday, Red-Saturday.
On specialty breads, they have yet another color code:
You will find Beige, Pink, Light Green, Light Blue, Light Yellow.
I rarely if ever find a different color than Beige on Arnold Rye Bread, which makes sense since it is only baked once per week.
This probably holds true for Pepperidge Farm also.
I do know when they deliver Rye bread, and Specialty breads, ALL of those on the shelf are removed before the new supply is put in place. And in the case of our local discount store, all breads removed from the main shelf and moved over to the discount shelf have a Black twisty wire added to them, or a black mark made on the tag. Plus some other type of mark so the cashiers know you didn't swap tags to get fresh bread for the half off price.
I may be wrong about this, but it sounds like the type of Rye Bread you like is called French Baked Rye Bread.
It has a crispy crust and the bread is slightly more dense.
I don't think Aged Meats mean they are just older, hi hi.
Re: One More Reason
Thinking it over I can say most, if not all, the Pepperidge Farm rye that I buy has either pink or blue tags on the bag. Rotating stock seems to be a standard practice, but there are times when both pink and blue tags appear for the same type of bread. That might matter to some people, but I found that Pepperidge Farm rye has a shelf life of nearly 14 days. That's true for the shelf in my kitchen anyway so that bread baked two days apart would have the same quality as far as I can detect.
There is something I would call Artisan Baked Bread. That typically has the crispy crust and dense texture for the bread. That is the kind of bread the bakery made when I was a kid and lived next door to them. It wasn't anything special back then. That's just how all dark bread was baked. I can find this Artisan baked bread in a few places here in town, but not any of it is rye. I also didn't realize the French made a rye bread. I don't think I've ever seen it if they do. Another thing I've not seen since I've come to Missouri is a hard crust Kaiser roll. That was my favorite kind of white bread, but it was getting hard to find even aback home. People don't like the hard crust for some reason.
There is something I would call Artisan Baked Bread. That typically has the crispy crust and dense texture for the bread. That is the kind of bread the bakery made when I was a kid and lived next door to them. It wasn't anything special back then. That's just how all dark bread was baked. I can find this Artisan baked bread in a few places here in town, but not any of it is rye. I also didn't realize the French made a rye bread. I don't think I've ever seen it if they do. Another thing I've not seen since I've come to Missouri is a hard crust Kaiser roll. That was my favorite kind of white bread, but it was getting hard to find even aback home. People don't like the hard crust for some reason.
Re: One More Reason
About the only person I know who likes a crispy crust is my wife.
I don't know why down here they call it French Baked Rye Bread?
Back home it was called Crispy Crust Rye Bread or just Crusty Rye Bread.
I think the loaves at Dierbergs said Crusty Rye.
Thinking maybe the French Baked Rye Bread is because it is a long skinny loaf, like Italian Bread.
We also have German Black Bread, which is not the same as Pumpernickel. I got to where I liked the German Black Bread when Al Gorlich owned his Deli in Des Peres. He also had Black Forest Black Bread which I thought was horrible tasting.
Kroger down here has a bread sold with their label on it. It is a combo of rye and pumpernickel, but rolled up much more than bread with a swirl in it. It like they took a sheet of rye dough and a sheet of pumpernickel and rolled them up together, so the inside is a tight spiral, then it is cut at about a 30 degree angle so the pieces are as big as a rye bread slice.
I don't know why down here they call it French Baked Rye Bread?
Back home it was called Crispy Crust Rye Bread or just Crusty Rye Bread.
I think the loaves at Dierbergs said Crusty Rye.
Thinking maybe the French Baked Rye Bread is because it is a long skinny loaf, like Italian Bread.
We also have German Black Bread, which is not the same as Pumpernickel. I got to where I liked the German Black Bread when Al Gorlich owned his Deli in Des Peres. He also had Black Forest Black Bread which I thought was horrible tasting.
Kroger down here has a bread sold with their label on it. It is a combo of rye and pumpernickel, but rolled up much more than bread with a swirl in it. It like they took a sheet of rye dough and a sheet of pumpernickel and rolled them up together, so the inside is a tight spiral, then it is cut at about a 30 degree angle so the pieces are as big as a rye bread slice.
Re: One More Reason
I have a recipe for what is called European Dark Rye bread. It may or may not be the same thing as the German Black Bread you describe. I actually attempted to make it one time and had to buy special flour. From what I recall it wasn't the flour that made it dark, however. I believe it had molasses or something like that in addition to a few other things that essentially turned it into concrete. I was not successful making the bread. I kept it in the oven for about 90 minutes but still could not get it to rise or bake all the way through. I've not attempted it since but have instead tried other lighter rye breads with just about the same kind of success. The last loaf I baked was still too heavy and didn't rise properly in the oven, but I am told that has to do with the kneading, or lack of it. I use a Kitchen Aide mixer with a kneading hook and that could be the problem. Some day I will learn how to use it properly. LOL
Making the crust of bread crispy is simply a matter of baking it in a humid environment. I've not tried that yet but will do it once I perfect the method for making an edible loaf of bread to begin with. I don't know many, if any, people who do prefer crispy crusts. I know a few who cut off even the soft crust. It all seems odd to me because the crust is what gives the bread a lot of it's flavor.
Making the crust of bread crispy is simply a matter of baking it in a humid environment. I've not tried that yet but will do it once I perfect the method for making an edible loaf of bread to begin with. I don't know many, if any, people who do prefer crispy crusts. I know a few who cut off even the soft crust. It all seems odd to me because the crust is what gives the bread a lot of it's flavor.
Last edited by yogi on 01 May 2022, 17:39, edited 1 time in total.
Re: One More Reason
The few times I made bread by hand, I had to let the dough sit and rise for about an hour before baking, kneading it one more time at about the 1/2 hour mark.
Never tried making rye bread though.
I sometimes remove the top crust from bread when making a sandwich. Not because I don't like it, but I have Parrot who will squawk for an hour if he don't get a couple of bites of what I'm eating, hi hi.
Never tried making rye bread though.
I sometimes remove the top crust from bread when making a sandwich. Not because I don't like it, but I have Parrot who will squawk for an hour if he don't get a couple of bites of what I'm eating, hi hi.
Re: One More Reason
There happens to be a tremendous amount of information about how to make bread. Proofing, the rising of the dough, is critical as is the kneading. Temperature of the dough while mixing can make or break the outcome. It was all pretty interesting reading but by far the majority of the articles deal with hand kneading. I don't have the technique nor the strength to do it properly which is why I decided to use a machine for kneading. I also bought a proofing box so that the temperature while the bread rises is what it is supposed to be. Interestingly enough the last batch had no problems rising before baking. The dough needs to be punched down before baking so that it will rise again in the oven. That is where I have the greatest difficulty. It does not rise properly and thus does not bake properly. After a lot of reading of comments on those recipe pages it seems that the texture of the kneaded dough is the key to success. I've not been able to achieve the right texture apparently.
I generally have fruit and toast with some protean for breakfast. Like your parrot our dog insists on participating and will bark loud and long if she doesn't get her share. I discovered that she really likes pears that are crunchy. I add them to the fruit salad mix just for her.
I generally have fruit and toast with some protean for breakfast. Like your parrot our dog insists on participating and will bark loud and long if she doesn't get her share. I discovered that she really likes pears that are crunchy. I add them to the fruit salad mix just for her.
Re: One More Reason
Someone gave my wife a bread making machine. The mixes that go with it are expensive.
But the bread always came out perfectly. Don't know what is in those mixes, but when we tried making our own, it didn't work.
She hasn't used that machine in a while now, simply because it costs so much to use.
I used to never eat breakfast, because if I did, I was starving to death before lunch time rolled around.
But now that I have to take pill in the AM with food, I have one slice of bread with one slice of cheese, and often with some sandwich spread on it. I don't get the whole thing with a bird and 3 pooches begging hi hi.
But the bread always came out perfectly. Don't know what is in those mixes, but when we tried making our own, it didn't work.
She hasn't used that machine in a while now, simply because it costs so much to use.
I used to never eat breakfast, because if I did, I was starving to death before lunch time rolled around.
But now that I have to take pill in the AM with food, I have one slice of bread with one slice of cheese, and often with some sandwich spread on it. I don't get the whole thing with a bird and 3 pooches begging hi hi.
Re: One More Reason
Ahhhh, yes. Bread making machines. They do work well. Mom had one and used it a few times, but eventually gave up on it for the same reasons you cite. It was too expensive to buy the prepackaged mix, plus the bread was a round roll instead of a loaf. If I recall the crust wasn't right either. There is a recipe that goes with the machines and I'm sure the company who sells the machines paid a few food scientists to come up with a bullet proof formula of mix to sell with the machines. The good news is what you point out: it works every time.
I more or less gave up on bread making for the time being, but I will get back to it. I know that there is a formula just like the one the bread machine people have. All I need to do is find a recipe that is reliable. Once that happens I can start to vary the process to produce different results. It seems as if there is no generally known way to make rye bread perfect every time. I've read a few comments to that effect too. However, there is a method that will work most of the time. Probably. Well, if Pepperidge Farm can do it, so can i.
I more or less gave up on bread making for the time being, but I will get back to it. I know that there is a formula just like the one the bread machine people have. All I need to do is find a recipe that is reliable. Once that happens I can start to vary the process to produce different results. It seems as if there is no generally known way to make rye bread perfect every time. I've read a few comments to that effect too. However, there is a method that will work most of the time. Probably. Well, if Pepperidge Farm can do it, so can i.
Re: One More Reason
Way back around 1973 I came up with a formula for bread, after many failures, that was quick and simple, and the bread tasted great. I had this big grid chart I had used to work out the formula, and once I finally had it down pat, I jotted it down on an index card and taped it to the inside of my kitchen cabinet door.
When I got ready to move, I took it down and put it inside the cover of my favorite cookbook so it wouldn't get lost in the move.
After I got settled in the new house. That cookbook was no where to be found.
The formula was closer to what you would use to make dinner rolls, but did require only a sitting time then pound it into the bread pan and toss it into the oven. My kids loved it, and it was cheaper to make than buying bread at the store, but that was because we bought flour in like 50 pound sacks at the time too. Not that I brought that much flour home to my house hi hi.
I'm afraid the way commercial bread is made, is a method that would be impossible to do at home, even if you could get the chemicals, hi hi.
When I got ready to move, I took it down and put it inside the cover of my favorite cookbook so it wouldn't get lost in the move.
After I got settled in the new house. That cookbook was no where to be found.
The formula was closer to what you would use to make dinner rolls, but did require only a sitting time then pound it into the bread pan and toss it into the oven. My kids loved it, and it was cheaper to make than buying bread at the store, but that was because we bought flour in like 50 pound sacks at the time too. Not that I brought that much flour home to my house hi hi.
I'm afraid the way commercial bread is made, is a method that would be impossible to do at home, even if you could get the chemicals, hi hi.
Re: One More Reason
I've mentioned Artisan style bread earlier and that is the quintessential bread model. It comes close to matching what I still have of my childhood memories about the bakery next door. The thing that irks me is that I know making a perfect loaf of rye every attempt is possible. It's the same kind of passion I have regarding mixing and matching computer operating systems. You know, Linux and Windows can and should work side by side. Well, I did solve THAT problem, but I have yet to figure out the bread. LOL The other side of the coin is that I now know that I cannot really reproduce the bread made in the bakery next door. They didn't use a Pepperidge Farm chemistry set, but they did use commercial supplies; dried eggs, for example. But, I have had the pleasure of eating the Artisan style bread which is what I am certain I could reproduce. Eventually.
I like your grid analysis technique. I do a lot of reading on a subject when I have a passion for it. That happened when I decided to learn how to bake bread. A lot of insight came from people commenting and reviewing breads. If I could put all those comments into a grid map it might be possible to come up with a method that is reliable. It's not going to happen in the near future, but some day I will make the perfect rye bread in my kitchen.
I like your grid analysis technique. I do a lot of reading on a subject when I have a passion for it. That happened when I decided to learn how to bake bread. A lot of insight came from people commenting and reviewing breads. If I could put all those comments into a grid map it might be possible to come up with a method that is reliable. It's not going to happen in the near future, but some day I will make the perfect rye bread in my kitchen.
Re: One More Reason
Some of the cheap breads, including white and wheat, look like they were made using a styrofoam extraction system.
Turns out, I wasn't very far off. They inject gas into the small strands of dough to make them rise. This is what makes them overly uniform and feel like foam rubber, hi hi.
I went through a factory that made cheese curls in massive quantities.
Think they are fried? Nope!
They are injected under such high pressure through a tiny little hole in the end of the machine, the heat of them hitting the air as they come out causes them to puff up and the heat of the machine itself under pressure does most of the cooking.
Also saw how they made puffed wheat and puffed rice also. It really is shot from guns per se. As that is the sound of the drums when the cap is blown off. Sorta like the reverse of a vacuum cylinder. High pressure suddenly released causes the items that were in the pressure chamber to puff up like they would in a vacuum. But in a vacuum they would shrink back down when the vacuum was released. But when they do it under high pressure, they puff up when the pressure is suddenly released.
Although there is no licorice that is made or tastes like Switzer's licorice did, a few places have come close.
When I was 16 and 17, we used to take the tour of the Switzer's plant, only because you got a couple of free boxes of licorice on each visit. There was no charge to get in, so for a 15 minute tour of the plant, you got about 4 to 6 bars of licorice.
Plus it was phun to watch all those workers hustling their buns off, as not much was automated back in those days.
Right next door was a commercial candy company also who made all those poplar Christmas candies.
It was neat learning how they get the santa claus, christmas trees and other things in the center of the candy disks.
I learned how to make ingredient charts in chemistry class at high school.
It is basically a chart of results of combinations.
Then lets say you have 10 ingredients you know work together.
You would do 9 ingredients by the chart, then use more or less of the 10th ingredient to see what difference it made.
Using these charts is when I was trying to develop my AZ-NO3 product is what eventually led to success, and later improvements.
Turns out, I wasn't very far off. They inject gas into the small strands of dough to make them rise. This is what makes them overly uniform and feel like foam rubber, hi hi.
I went through a factory that made cheese curls in massive quantities.
Think they are fried? Nope!
They are injected under such high pressure through a tiny little hole in the end of the machine, the heat of them hitting the air as they come out causes them to puff up and the heat of the machine itself under pressure does most of the cooking.
Also saw how they made puffed wheat and puffed rice also. It really is shot from guns per se. As that is the sound of the drums when the cap is blown off. Sorta like the reverse of a vacuum cylinder. High pressure suddenly released causes the items that were in the pressure chamber to puff up like they would in a vacuum. But in a vacuum they would shrink back down when the vacuum was released. But when they do it under high pressure, they puff up when the pressure is suddenly released.
Although there is no licorice that is made or tastes like Switzer's licorice did, a few places have come close.
When I was 16 and 17, we used to take the tour of the Switzer's plant, only because you got a couple of free boxes of licorice on each visit. There was no charge to get in, so for a 15 minute tour of the plant, you got about 4 to 6 bars of licorice.
Plus it was phun to watch all those workers hustling their buns off, as not much was automated back in those days.
Right next door was a commercial candy company also who made all those poplar Christmas candies.
It was neat learning how they get the santa claus, christmas trees and other things in the center of the candy disks.
I learned how to make ingredient charts in chemistry class at high school.
It is basically a chart of results of combinations.
Then lets say you have 10 ingredients you know work together.
You would do 9 ingredients by the chart, then use more or less of the 10th ingredient to see what difference it made.
Using these charts is when I was trying to develop my AZ-NO3 product is what eventually led to success, and later improvements.
Re: One More Reason
Switzer's licorice is an all time favorite of my wife's. When she needs some comfort food that is what she goes for. Every so often it is available at Schnucks and my wife of many years loves it. Then, too, she lost about half her taste buds when she went through chemo therapy.
I had suspected all along that the commercial breads are not baked the same as I would do in my kitchen. It never occurred to me that yeast could be substituted by injecting gas into the dough. The only purpose of the yeast is to create those bubbles of gas so that I guess it makes sense. Schnucks supposedly bakes a lot of bread in house and their white bread is very consistent, just as is the Pepperidge Farm stuff. Dierbergs, however, has a house brand but it is baked the gods only know where. Their bread is full of holes of various sizes and a full slice barely weighs 3/4th an ounce. The Schnucks bread comes in close to one ounce, and Pepperidge Farm is typically 1 1/4th ounces. Going by slice weight isn't the best comparison because the size of the slices vary. But it's is a perfect way to describe how bread is manufactured to look great but be mostly air.
I only had one chemistry class in my life, and that was in high school. I didn't learn a lot in that class and I can't recall using charts to predicts the outcome of mixing chemicals. We had to learn about valence and how chemicals of various types gave or received electrons, which was all part of the chemical notation we did have to memorize. I got to be pretty good at that because the input had to balance with the output. The only trick was in knowing which chemicals would actually combine or precipitate out. It was kind of like solving an algebra equation but I suspect it could have been all charted instead. I learn better with visuals, but I don't recall having any in chemistry class.
I had suspected all along that the commercial breads are not baked the same as I would do in my kitchen. It never occurred to me that yeast could be substituted by injecting gas into the dough. The only purpose of the yeast is to create those bubbles of gas so that I guess it makes sense. Schnucks supposedly bakes a lot of bread in house and their white bread is very consistent, just as is the Pepperidge Farm stuff. Dierbergs, however, has a house brand but it is baked the gods only know where. Their bread is full of holes of various sizes and a full slice barely weighs 3/4th an ounce. The Schnucks bread comes in close to one ounce, and Pepperidge Farm is typically 1 1/4th ounces. Going by slice weight isn't the best comparison because the size of the slices vary. But it's is a perfect way to describe how bread is manufactured to look great but be mostly air.
I only had one chemistry class in my life, and that was in high school. I didn't learn a lot in that class and I can't recall using charts to predicts the outcome of mixing chemicals. We had to learn about valence and how chemicals of various types gave or received electrons, which was all part of the chemical notation we did have to memorize. I got to be pretty good at that because the input had to balance with the output. The only trick was in knowing which chemicals would actually combine or precipitate out. It was kind of like solving an algebra equation but I suspect it could have been all charted instead. I learn better with visuals, but I don't recall having any in chemistry class.
Re: One More Reason
You surprised me with your opening comment, because Switzer's closed down many moons ago.
However, a little research shows two of the grandchildren got them up and running again.
I wonder if they have the same formula their grandpa developed?
Using yeast to make bread is what causes the bigger holes, but then so does other things they use also, but not as bad.
There are still a lot of the older way of doing things bakeries around.
When I first moved down here, Kern's bakery was still going strong, and had many contracts from national companies to make their products for local distribution. But not all the products of course. They made several Hostess snack items like Twinkies, Cup Cakes, but not Ding Dongs. Almost anything with the name Little Debbie on it, they also made, but I never did like the taste of Little Debbie products.
But all good things come to an end. Bakeries with hi-tech equipment ended up getting all the contracts, so Kern's finally closed down. It sat vacant for several years, now it is being turned into apartments.
Speaking of apartments, you would not believe the number of apartment complexes being built down here. I kid you not, hundreds of them are being built. At least 20 were built over the past few years within a 3 mile radius of my house. I couldn't afford to live in an apartment. Most of them are over one grand per month and upwards from that.
I hear ya on HS chemistry class. 90% of it was just memorizing what was in the books long enough to pass the tests.
My class lucked out with a nut job in my senior year, he was known as Pyro, hi hi. He's the one that loved to have things burn, hi hi, and who showed us how to use the charts, because that is what he used very heavily.
Outside of teaching at the HS, he and his brother were always trying to come up with something to market that was either not out there yet, or worked better than anything that was. But once they came up with something and got a patent on it, they usually sold it to one of the big manufacturers. Apparently they did make much money doing that though.
As far as commercial baking goes, you can just look at the ingredients list on the items you buy and see not much of what is in those baked goods is available on the grocery store shelves as individual ingredients you or I could buy, hi hi.
However, a little research shows two of the grandchildren got them up and running again.
I wonder if they have the same formula their grandpa developed?
Using yeast to make bread is what causes the bigger holes, but then so does other things they use also, but not as bad.
There are still a lot of the older way of doing things bakeries around.
When I first moved down here, Kern's bakery was still going strong, and had many contracts from national companies to make their products for local distribution. But not all the products of course. They made several Hostess snack items like Twinkies, Cup Cakes, but not Ding Dongs. Almost anything with the name Little Debbie on it, they also made, but I never did like the taste of Little Debbie products.
But all good things come to an end. Bakeries with hi-tech equipment ended up getting all the contracts, so Kern's finally closed down. It sat vacant for several years, now it is being turned into apartments.
Speaking of apartments, you would not believe the number of apartment complexes being built down here. I kid you not, hundreds of them are being built. At least 20 were built over the past few years within a 3 mile radius of my house. I couldn't afford to live in an apartment. Most of them are over one grand per month and upwards from that.
I hear ya on HS chemistry class. 90% of it was just memorizing what was in the books long enough to pass the tests.
My class lucked out with a nut job in my senior year, he was known as Pyro, hi hi. He's the one that loved to have things burn, hi hi, and who showed us how to use the charts, because that is what he used very heavily.
Outside of teaching at the HS, he and his brother were always trying to come up with something to market that was either not out there yet, or worked better than anything that was. But once they came up with something and got a patent on it, they usually sold it to one of the big manufacturers. Apparently they did make much money doing that though.
As far as commercial baking goes, you can just look at the ingredients list on the items you buy and see not much of what is in those baked goods is available on the grocery store shelves as individual ingredients you or I could buy, hi hi.
Re: One More Reason
My wife of many years loves licorice and back home Switzer brand was not difficult to come by. I guess it did disappear for a while, or seemed to. I know she complained a lot about the substitute but I never paid much attention to the candy section in the grocery. She was really excited to find it here in O'Fallon, but it's in short supply as are many things now and days. I can't say how today's flavor compares to the past and I wouldn't trust the taste buds my wife has. She likes some mighty strange stuff and can't taste certain things at all.
The pandemic did some crazy things in the housing market, as did the tax on imported lumber from Canada. There were no houses on the market in many places and the cost of lumber nearly doubled in those two pandemic years. Prices for homes skyrocketed. I think that is a major factor in explaining why people are looking for apartments these days. Now that the pandemic has cooled down a bit people are selling their homes more readily. Apartment rents, however, are out of this world. I was just talking to a fellow near Tacoma, Washington, who was complaining that his rent for a one bedroom apartment was now $1,800 and will be $2,000 next year. I can see how that would happen in NYC, but Tacoma? It's no secret that places in Tennessee have a lower cost of living than most other places in this country. Knoxville could be a magnet for real estate developers for that reason. But, as you well know, the cheaper housing will only last a little while. Once those apartments get populated for a while it will be no different than any other big city.
The pandemic did some crazy things in the housing market, as did the tax on imported lumber from Canada. There were no houses on the market in many places and the cost of lumber nearly doubled in those two pandemic years. Prices for homes skyrocketed. I think that is a major factor in explaining why people are looking for apartments these days. Now that the pandemic has cooled down a bit people are selling their homes more readily. Apartment rents, however, are out of this world. I was just talking to a fellow near Tacoma, Washington, who was complaining that his rent for a one bedroom apartment was now $1,800 and will be $2,000 next year. I can see how that would happen in NYC, but Tacoma? It's no secret that places in Tennessee have a lower cost of living than most other places in this country. Knoxville could be a magnet for real estate developers for that reason. But, as you well know, the cheaper housing will only last a little while. Once those apartments get populated for a while it will be no different than any other big city.
Re: One More Reason
I just got logged out again, and all I did was hit the backspace key to fix a type.
Dang, and I had a lot of writing there too, about the apartments I lived in over the years, and their monthly cost.
In a nutshell, from 1967 to 1972 I paid 150 bucks a month for a 3-story townhouse, 2 bdrm, 2 bth.
From 1972 to 1977 I paid $112.50 for a single story 2 bdrm, 1 bth, apartment with stove and fridge included.
My rent never went up because I did maintenance, and later groundskeeping.
As a bonus I got a side yard next to my apartment as a private yard.
I also mentioned that I rented 2-story all brick homes with full-basements for only 350 bucks a month.
One with a 1/2 acre yard was 375 bucks a month because the taxes were higher on it.
I also mentioned about buying the Holmes Avenue apartments, but sold them PDQ.
Dang, and I had a lot of writing there too, about the apartments I lived in over the years, and their monthly cost.
In a nutshell, from 1967 to 1972 I paid 150 bucks a month for a 3-story townhouse, 2 bdrm, 2 bth.
From 1972 to 1977 I paid $112.50 for a single story 2 bdrm, 1 bth, apartment with stove and fridge included.
My rent never went up because I did maintenance, and later groundskeeping.
As a bonus I got a side yard next to my apartment as a private yard.
I also mentioned that I rented 2-story all brick homes with full-basements for only 350 bucks a month.
One with a 1/2 acre yard was 375 bucks a month because the taxes were higher on it.
I also mentioned about buying the Holmes Avenue apartments, but sold them PDQ.
Re: One More Reason
It's always a question of should you buy or should you rent a place to live. The right answer depends on economic conditions. I don't recall the exact formula but basically rentals are better when mortgages and maintenance fees outpace the rental costs. In general it's better to buy because inflation works in your favor in that case. Recently, during the pandemic, houses for sale were scarce. Thus the old supply and demand rule applied and rental became the better deal. Now that interests rates are moving upward to bring inflation down the reverse is true and buying a house is a better investment.
It would have been interesting to read about how low your rents were in various situations. I'm disappointed that you lost it all to the gods of the Internet. I have just one story to tell you along those lines. When I first married, wife and I lived in an apartment in a building just across the street from where I grew up. After a couple years the landlord told us his daughter was immigrating here from Europe and we had to find another place to live. At the same time Motorola decided to move it's production plant out of Chicago (where I was then working) to a suburb some 20 miles from my apartment. It was not exactly country but there was a lot of vacant land at the time. One developer managed to snatch a parcel of land just down the street from Motorola and built some starter homes that he hoped to sell to the workers in the new factory. Wife and I went out to look at them and they were not luxurious in any way shape or form. But, they were great for newly weds with a rug rat in tow. The cost of a new home was ... $15,000 and we had to come up with 20% down in order to get one. We could not come up with the $3,000 and were forced to rent a place much further from the plant. When we left our last house we could not even remodel the bathroom for $15,000; and it was a very small bathroom.
So real estate is more than keeping up with inflation and the best way to go is to buy. In fact it is the major source of inflation believe it or not.
It would have been interesting to read about how low your rents were in various situations. I'm disappointed that you lost it all to the gods of the Internet. I have just one story to tell you along those lines. When I first married, wife and I lived in an apartment in a building just across the street from where I grew up. After a couple years the landlord told us his daughter was immigrating here from Europe and we had to find another place to live. At the same time Motorola decided to move it's production plant out of Chicago (where I was then working) to a suburb some 20 miles from my apartment. It was not exactly country but there was a lot of vacant land at the time. One developer managed to snatch a parcel of land just down the street from Motorola and built some starter homes that he hoped to sell to the workers in the new factory. Wife and I went out to look at them and they were not luxurious in any way shape or form. But, they were great for newly weds with a rug rat in tow. The cost of a new home was ... $15,000 and we had to come up with 20% down in order to get one. We could not come up with the $3,000 and were forced to rent a place much further from the plant. When we left our last house we could not even remodel the bathroom for $15,000; and it was a very small bathroom.
So real estate is more than keeping up with inflation and the best way to go is to buy. In fact it is the major source of inflation believe it or not.
Re: One More Reason
When I was younger, and could do all the work myself, I was buying houses for pennies on the dollar to renovate.
I've even bought some that needed little to no renovation for more than reasonable prices.
Like the one I bought for my fiancee's son, which turned out to be his grandmothers house, so he loved it.
Now the inner city houses I did buy for renovation, most of those I only paid like 6 to 8 grand for.
People didn't believe it until I showed them the closing statement from the title company.
Even when I moved south, with no money to speak of, I was able to pick up a vacant shack for only 3500 bucks, and I was able to finance 2800 of that at 5% interest. After I put in the plumbing, electric, new windows and two doors, circumstances led to my selling it to another person who wanted it for a rental. All that was left to do was put up the drywall, and I would go back and finish the final electric and plumbing work that is done after the walls are up. I just took what I had into it and doubled that to come up with the selling price of 10,800 bucks. Which I used to buy out Debi's sisters share of her inheritance so they too could buy a new house for themselves and that left only Debi's name on the deed.
On the house we live in, I've done a lot of the expensive renovation work, new custom bathroom and kitchen, plus finished two of the bedrooms, added on two room additions, but have not finished the last to easy to do rooms due to my heart attack and now I'm unable to work at all. Because of Debi's age, we put the house in her sons name at the end of last year.
My taxes were only 650 per year up until this year, then they doubled to 1,230 for this year, but we are fighting it.
But if you do the mathwork, even at 1,230 per year, that only around 102.50 per month. You can find anywhere to rent for that price. But up until this year, our taxes have just over 50 bucks a month. We have a house, a two car garage in size, but only made for one car and a large workroom. My office is huge and is in the south east corner of the garage, and I finished it off nicer than most folks master bedrooms. I intended to put in a bathroom and kitchenette but that never happened.
Plus I have two storage sheds that were remodeled after the hailstorm so they have the same roof as the house and garage and the same siding. They were placed such that the side walls of the garage could extend from the back to the storage sheds making an enclosed working area with no problem at all.
It's a shame you couldn't come up with the down payment for that house. That would have been a good deal for you.
In St. Louis County, no one is allowed to build starter sized homes anymore.
I had bought some land to do just that, and before I could get all the necessary permits in place, the upped the minimum square footage for new construction. So all the money I spent on the design of those houses with room for expansion was all for naught. I gave the plans to the developer I sold the property to, so he could build them with the expansion if he chose to do so. But instead he used his own house plans and packed them much closer together than I had planned, so in the end, he managed to squeeze six more houses onto the same parcel of land. But there was no room for expansion on any of them.
We have projects here for the really poor, but it is a bad place to live. Lot's of crime and drugs over there.
Debi's aunt found a HUD duplex for herself and the government basically pays for it, but not all of it.
From her SS check, after they take out for medicare, and her drug plan, they calculate 10% of the remainder for rent. But she still has to pay her supplemental insurance, so like me, she has less than enough to cover food and co-pays.
I could never afford to live in an apartment, even a HUD supplied one.
I've even bought some that needed little to no renovation for more than reasonable prices.
Like the one I bought for my fiancee's son, which turned out to be his grandmothers house, so he loved it.
Now the inner city houses I did buy for renovation, most of those I only paid like 6 to 8 grand for.
People didn't believe it until I showed them the closing statement from the title company.
Even when I moved south, with no money to speak of, I was able to pick up a vacant shack for only 3500 bucks, and I was able to finance 2800 of that at 5% interest. After I put in the plumbing, electric, new windows and two doors, circumstances led to my selling it to another person who wanted it for a rental. All that was left to do was put up the drywall, and I would go back and finish the final electric and plumbing work that is done after the walls are up. I just took what I had into it and doubled that to come up with the selling price of 10,800 bucks. Which I used to buy out Debi's sisters share of her inheritance so they too could buy a new house for themselves and that left only Debi's name on the deed.
On the house we live in, I've done a lot of the expensive renovation work, new custom bathroom and kitchen, plus finished two of the bedrooms, added on two room additions, but have not finished the last to easy to do rooms due to my heart attack and now I'm unable to work at all. Because of Debi's age, we put the house in her sons name at the end of last year.
My taxes were only 650 per year up until this year, then they doubled to 1,230 for this year, but we are fighting it.
But if you do the mathwork, even at 1,230 per year, that only around 102.50 per month. You can find anywhere to rent for that price. But up until this year, our taxes have just over 50 bucks a month. We have a house, a two car garage in size, but only made for one car and a large workroom. My office is huge and is in the south east corner of the garage, and I finished it off nicer than most folks master bedrooms. I intended to put in a bathroom and kitchenette but that never happened.
Plus I have two storage sheds that were remodeled after the hailstorm so they have the same roof as the house and garage and the same siding. They were placed such that the side walls of the garage could extend from the back to the storage sheds making an enclosed working area with no problem at all.
It's a shame you couldn't come up with the down payment for that house. That would have been a good deal for you.
In St. Louis County, no one is allowed to build starter sized homes anymore.
I had bought some land to do just that, and before I could get all the necessary permits in place, the upped the minimum square footage for new construction. So all the money I spent on the design of those houses with room for expansion was all for naught. I gave the plans to the developer I sold the property to, so he could build them with the expansion if he chose to do so. But instead he used his own house plans and packed them much closer together than I had planned, so in the end, he managed to squeeze six more houses onto the same parcel of land. But there was no room for expansion on any of them.
We have projects here for the really poor, but it is a bad place to live. Lot's of crime and drugs over there.
Debi's aunt found a HUD duplex for herself and the government basically pays for it, but not all of it.
From her SS check, after they take out for medicare, and her drug plan, they calculate 10% of the remainder for rent. But she still has to pay her supplemental insurance, so like me, she has less than enough to cover food and co-pays.
I could never afford to live in an apartment, even a HUD supplied one.