The Rest Of The Story
Re: The Rest Of The Story
It might seem odd to you but when I read a lot of your stories Elon Musk comes to mind. That guy is into about as many things as you had going at your peak. The only difference is that he is worth about $38 billlion. Unless I misjudged you severely, I don't think you ever were quite THAT wealthy. LOL Regardless, it's not about the money. Both of you are highly creative people who actual put your dreams and creations to practical use. It's not too surprising that the main motivation is boredom. It's usually that which dives genius minds, or drugs. Whichever is more accessible.
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I've never been well to do by a long shot, but did have a long stretch where I was most comfortable.
For at least 5 years I had at least 200k to 500k crossing my desk each month, unfortunately not much fell into my lap en passing, hi hi.
Nevertheless, I had amassed enough money to buy a three-story building and get Wonder Plants off the ground, and it was very successful. Maybe too successful is why it got torn out from under me.
My real estate business had over 150k a month crossing my desk and I made enough to keep the frau's medical bills paid in full.
And to be perfectly honest, it was all work and no play. I was miserable most of the time and not able to enjoy life.
After the bottom was swept out from under me, and after I rid myself of every possible debt, other than the normal recurring bills you can't get out from under, such as utilities and insurances.
My life changed considerably. There is nothing like being totally debt free, and not working your arse off to make other rich at your expense. I may be poor now, sometimes a little too poor to make ends meet. But nevertheless, I've never been happier in my entire life. I wouldn't want to go back to the way life was before!
I do wish my health was a little better, but technically you can't buy health. Although it would be nice to afford the meds I'm supposed to be taking.
For at least 5 years I had at least 200k to 500k crossing my desk each month, unfortunately not much fell into my lap en passing, hi hi.
Nevertheless, I had amassed enough money to buy a three-story building and get Wonder Plants off the ground, and it was very successful. Maybe too successful is why it got torn out from under me.
My real estate business had over 150k a month crossing my desk and I made enough to keep the frau's medical bills paid in full.
And to be perfectly honest, it was all work and no play. I was miserable most of the time and not able to enjoy life.
After the bottom was swept out from under me, and after I rid myself of every possible debt, other than the normal recurring bills you can't get out from under, such as utilities and insurances.
My life changed considerably. There is nothing like being totally debt free, and not working your arse off to make other rich at your expense. I may be poor now, sometimes a little too poor to make ends meet. But nevertheless, I've never been happier in my entire life. I wouldn't want to go back to the way life was before!
I do wish my health was a little better, but technically you can't buy health. Although it would be nice to afford the meds I'm supposed to be taking.
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People like to downplay the importance of money but that usually comes from those who have none or those who have so much it is meaningless. The game changes in that latter category. It's not about accumulating money anymore but about the power and influence that goes along with it. Our favorite whipping boys, the politicians, seem to be obsessed with the power their wealth has given them. When it comes to folks like us money is necessary to survive. You are doing exactly that with very little resources. Sometimes I find myself reflecting on how fortunate I am, albeit not comfortably rich as I would prefer. I worked for "The Man" for 36 years and it turns out he was quite benevolent in spite of the fact he kicked my butt out of his company when he was done using me. I didn't expect much from my spouse when I married her, but she too worked in a profession she was good at but not necessarily happy in. Neither one of us made enough money to support the family we raised, but together our earnings allowed us to pursue the American dream: house, kids, and car. I always regretted not getting that degree which would have enabled me to move up in the company, but it turns out that I'm doing pretty well in my old age. A lot of my degreed peers are not. Doing well to me means that I'm comfortable most of the time. It could all change in an instant, and probably will some day. I don't think I did anything special to get where I am now. I certainly didn't have Missouri in my long term plans. LOL So, at the end of the day it's how satisfied and pleased you are with the life you lead. I kind of doubt Elon Musk is any happier than you, but I do admire the genius you both possess.
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Despite everything that happened, many good things have followed.
After I auctioned off everything and sold my house, I was totally debt free, and without filing bankruptcy.
Which in retrospect I probably should have. This would have left me homeless except I had a room in a basement me and the frau could stay in with a bathroom and a partial kitchen, although we could use the upstairs kitchen.
I kept my tools of the trade, and one of my small tabletop businesses. Although I never got back into the trades per se.
Made enough from my tabletop business the short time I was there I could buy a trailer and get the frau moved back to her parents home in TN. This is also when I was being treated for cancer, so everything was super hard for me to do.
After I made the move to TN, where we lived in a single room, I had another large order for my tabletop business, which allowed me to buy the house I began to renovate. The county had already turned down my reciprocal on my licenses, but I could still work on a house I owned without problems, as long as I got the necessary permits and inspections.
After Debi's dad died, I had to take care of her mom, sold the house I had started on for us, and over time, plus a few more moderate orders, and going through several legal steps bought the house for Debi. This gave us a house on 1 acre paid for in full. I had started renovations on the house hitting the major rooms first, bathroom and kitchen. Never finished all of the rooms before I had my two heart attacks. But five years after her mom passed away, we were safe as far as it being our home that could not be attached by the government.
Between the two of us, we can make ends meet, but just barely.
Our funeral arrangements are paid for in full, including opening and closing, so nobody will get hit with any bills after we croak. If I go first, which is most likely, Debi's son can help her with any shortfall until she probably moves in with him and they sell the house. None of her remaining family want the house, nor keep it in their family name, like when I got it for her. All of the houses in this subdivision that did belong to her relatives are now all sold, or rented out by a relative who lives out of state.
But the key to everything is simple, we are both as happy as a hog in a mud puddle, hi hi.
After I auctioned off everything and sold my house, I was totally debt free, and without filing bankruptcy.
Which in retrospect I probably should have. This would have left me homeless except I had a room in a basement me and the frau could stay in with a bathroom and a partial kitchen, although we could use the upstairs kitchen.
I kept my tools of the trade, and one of my small tabletop businesses. Although I never got back into the trades per se.
Made enough from my tabletop business the short time I was there I could buy a trailer and get the frau moved back to her parents home in TN. This is also when I was being treated for cancer, so everything was super hard for me to do.
After I made the move to TN, where we lived in a single room, I had another large order for my tabletop business, which allowed me to buy the house I began to renovate. The county had already turned down my reciprocal on my licenses, but I could still work on a house I owned without problems, as long as I got the necessary permits and inspections.
After Debi's dad died, I had to take care of her mom, sold the house I had started on for us, and over time, plus a few more moderate orders, and going through several legal steps bought the house for Debi. This gave us a house on 1 acre paid for in full. I had started renovations on the house hitting the major rooms first, bathroom and kitchen. Never finished all of the rooms before I had my two heart attacks. But five years after her mom passed away, we were safe as far as it being our home that could not be attached by the government.
Between the two of us, we can make ends meet, but just barely.
Our funeral arrangements are paid for in full, including opening and closing, so nobody will get hit with any bills after we croak. If I go first, which is most likely, Debi's son can help her with any shortfall until she probably moves in with him and they sell the house. None of her remaining family want the house, nor keep it in their family name, like when I got it for her. All of the houses in this subdivision that did belong to her relatives are now all sold, or rented out by a relative who lives out of state.
But the key to everything is simple, we are both as happy as a hog in a mud puddle, hi hi.
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Probably the only reason I survived the forced retirement is that we were debt free at the time. We had a few credit cards but paid them all off. I don't remember the last time I carried a balance forward on any of my credit cards. I did once. That was because I incorrectly wrote out the check for the payment. That left something like $20 balance that I had to pay interest on the next month. LOL It's almost like paying cash for everything, but more flexible. After I went on Social Security, we had a card burning ceremony. We now only have two credit cards and one ATM. One of those two is for Target and gets paid off monthly. The other one is the standard Visa card. I keep getting requests from them to update my income so that they can increase my credit limit. Well, I'm thinking if they knew what my income is now they might lower the limit instead. In any case, the only bills I get concerned about now are the taxes. If I can't pay those my house is in jeopardy. So far it's not been a problem.
I don't think I've fully made the mental adjustment to the fact that I live in Missouri now. It still seems like we are just on vacation and will have to go back home some day. The thing is I have no desire to return, expect for the ethnic food I could buy up there. LOL It's all very strange. We are indeed happy here, but we didn't plan it this way before we retired.
I don't think I've fully made the mental adjustment to the fact that I live in Missouri now. It still seems like we are just on vacation and will have to go back home some day. The thing is I have no desire to return, expect for the ethnic food I could buy up there. LOL It's all very strange. We are indeed happy here, but we didn't plan it this way before we retired.
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After I moved south, I kept my CDL with all endorsements except hazmat, and it is really expensive down here to do so.
They have some really ridiculous laws down here not found in most other states.
The way it works on CDL's is akin to them taking away your High School or College Diploma if you don't maintain all the requirements to keep a license for your type of business.
In Missouri, you can keep your CDL forever, as long as you keep it renewed. That does not mean you can still be driving OTR if you don't have your medical certificate up to date. Your CDL is obtained by study and several tests, it is like your Diploma. But a Diploma is useless if you don't have a job that requires it, but you still have it.
Her in TN you MUST keep your medical certificate up to date in order to keep your Diploma that showed you passed all the required tests. Let your medical certificate expire and they take away your Diploma for graduating.
There are a LOT of things I miss about Missouri, but after over 15 years down here, I'm used to the slower space and idiocies that go on. Double Taxation is what befuddled me the most. Never heard of such a thing being legal.
They have some really ridiculous laws down here not found in most other states.
The way it works on CDL's is akin to them taking away your High School or College Diploma if you don't maintain all the requirements to keep a license for your type of business.
In Missouri, you can keep your CDL forever, as long as you keep it renewed. That does not mean you can still be driving OTR if you don't have your medical certificate up to date. Your CDL is obtained by study and several tests, it is like your Diploma. But a Diploma is useless if you don't have a job that requires it, but you still have it.
Her in TN you MUST keep your medical certificate up to date in order to keep your Diploma that showed you passed all the required tests. Let your medical certificate expire and they take away your Diploma for graduating.
There are a LOT of things I miss about Missouri, but after over 15 years down here, I'm used to the slower space and idiocies that go on. Double Taxation is what befuddled me the most. Never heard of such a thing being legal.
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That CDL is part and parcel of your life's history. You earned it and that fact can never be taken away from you. You can keep those certificates as long as you want even if the great state of Tennessee thinks they are worthless. It would be a greater injustice if you had a job that required it to earn a living. But, as you say, all that is history. So the CDL has great significance and meaning to you. Too bad for TN if they can't recognize your past accomplishments.
There are ways around the TN double taxation scheme: https://www.marcumllp.com/insights/avoi ... -tennessee I don't know if you qualify for any of that, and I'm certainly not comfortable with my understanding of the double taxation concept. From what I can tell there are no laws prohibiting double taxation. Not every jurisdiction practices it, but there is no reason they can't. I think they spilled a lot of tea over it in Boston at one time, but nothing sustainable came out of that protest.
There are ways around the TN double taxation scheme: https://www.marcumllp.com/insights/avoi ... -tennessee I don't know if you qualify for any of that, and I'm certainly not comfortable with my understanding of the double taxation concept. From what I can tell there are no laws prohibiting double taxation. Not every jurisdiction practices it, but there is no reason they can't. I think they spilled a lot of tea over it in Boston at one time, but nothing sustainable came out of that protest.
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Ah, regarding business. YES, I am doing what it says already to avoid business taxes and excise taxes.
By double taxation I meant my house and land. Personal taxation, not business!
When I first moved down here, my home was in Knox County.
So I only had two tax bills, one for the front lot, and one for the back lot.
Combined they came to a little over 300 bucks a year.
This included Police (Sheriff Patrol), Fire w/$200 fee if called, Ambulance for Emergencies w/$300 fee if called, maintenance of the watershed (ditch in my front yard by the road), and several other things. Our respective Insurance companies would cover those fees shown above. The Sheriff patrolled our street a minimum of once per day, but quite often two times a day as a general patrol.
OK, along comes the City of Knoxville and ANNEXED almost all the way to my south property line.
I'm used to the way things worked in St. Louis County. Whatever you paid to the county, they paid back to the city for the services the city provided. Doesn't work that way down here. You ALSO pay the City Tax which is about the same as the county tax, just over 300 bucks. But you have to pay BOTH the City Tax AND the County Tax, which DOUBLED the amount of tax we pay for the same services. Only now it is actually worse than before.
We now only have Police and Fire w/$600 fee if called. No Ambulance, we call a private ambulance company, at whatever rate they charge. The Police no longer patrol our street, the only time we see a car up here is if they were called to go to a house for something. They say that patrol our street once a week, but a call for some reason counts as a visit to our street. There has been zero maintenance of the watershed ditch since the city annexed us.
Our homeowners insurance went up by around 15 bucks because the City fire department is over a mile further away from us than the county fire department, and the city response time is slower than the county response time. Both of those factors were part of the increase in price.
This is why I complain about our taxes being doubled, and the services we had went down, way down, and our cost for those services, if used, also doubled or more. Our insurance only pays up to 500 bucks for fire service fees, so we get stuck with the difference. Insurance for the ambulance is whatever medicare covers and our supplemental, plus a co-pay. However, you cost for insurance is based on your area, which means based on the type of ambulance services available.
We had another city tax increase when they decided to start picking up our trash in these special containers. They did provide these huge user UNfriendly bins which are a royal pain in the arse to use.
Because we recycle so much stuff, we usually only have one or two 13 gallon bags of trash for them to pick up. And that bin is like a 100 gallon bin, heavy, and we live on a hill besides. As I said, a pain. I tried getting by only bringing it down every other week and got a visit from an inspector who said he could fine us for not properly following the waste service rules. Like as if anybody else does. Most folks have more trash than the bin holds and one rule is the lid must close, and no extra bags or cans sitting near it at the road. Haven't seen them enforce that yet!
Although my health is down and I could make them have to pick up my trash can from beside the house, because the wife's health is still fair, they didn't fall for it. Both of us would need a medical letter stating we are incapable of pulling that bin down and up the hill. We did learn that the garbage company is not who pulls the bin down or bring it back up either. The city has a small group of volunteers who stop to bring the bin down, and come back later to bring it back up again. So, as long as we can do it, we will.
By double taxation I meant my house and land. Personal taxation, not business!
When I first moved down here, my home was in Knox County.
So I only had two tax bills, one for the front lot, and one for the back lot.
Combined they came to a little over 300 bucks a year.
This included Police (Sheriff Patrol), Fire w/$200 fee if called, Ambulance for Emergencies w/$300 fee if called, maintenance of the watershed (ditch in my front yard by the road), and several other things. Our respective Insurance companies would cover those fees shown above. The Sheriff patrolled our street a minimum of once per day, but quite often two times a day as a general patrol.
OK, along comes the City of Knoxville and ANNEXED almost all the way to my south property line.
I'm used to the way things worked in St. Louis County. Whatever you paid to the county, they paid back to the city for the services the city provided. Doesn't work that way down here. You ALSO pay the City Tax which is about the same as the county tax, just over 300 bucks. But you have to pay BOTH the City Tax AND the County Tax, which DOUBLED the amount of tax we pay for the same services. Only now it is actually worse than before.
We now only have Police and Fire w/$600 fee if called. No Ambulance, we call a private ambulance company, at whatever rate they charge. The Police no longer patrol our street, the only time we see a car up here is if they were called to go to a house for something. They say that patrol our street once a week, but a call for some reason counts as a visit to our street. There has been zero maintenance of the watershed ditch since the city annexed us.
Our homeowners insurance went up by around 15 bucks because the City fire department is over a mile further away from us than the county fire department, and the city response time is slower than the county response time. Both of those factors were part of the increase in price.
This is why I complain about our taxes being doubled, and the services we had went down, way down, and our cost for those services, if used, also doubled or more. Our insurance only pays up to 500 bucks for fire service fees, so we get stuck with the difference. Insurance for the ambulance is whatever medicare covers and our supplemental, plus a co-pay. However, you cost for insurance is based on your area, which means based on the type of ambulance services available.
We had another city tax increase when they decided to start picking up our trash in these special containers. They did provide these huge user UNfriendly bins which are a royal pain in the arse to use.
Because we recycle so much stuff, we usually only have one or two 13 gallon bags of trash for them to pick up. And that bin is like a 100 gallon bin, heavy, and we live on a hill besides. As I said, a pain. I tried getting by only bringing it down every other week and got a visit from an inspector who said he could fine us for not properly following the waste service rules. Like as if anybody else does. Most folks have more trash than the bin holds and one rule is the lid must close, and no extra bags or cans sitting near it at the road. Haven't seen them enforce that yet!
Although my health is down and I could make them have to pick up my trash can from beside the house, because the wife's health is still fair, they didn't fall for it. Both of us would need a medical letter stating we are incapable of pulling that bin down and up the hill. We did learn that the garbage company is not who pulls the bin down or bring it back up either. The city has a small group of volunteers who stop to bring the bin down, and come back later to bring it back up again. So, as long as we can do it, we will.
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I think I get the tax picture in Tennessee now. 
Apparently what is happening in your situation is perfectly legal. Your property can be taxed simultaneously by any number of taxing bodies. In Illinois we only got one tax bill but it was excessively high, which was a major factor in the decision to leave. All the services were listed on the bill and they didn't all come from the same place. Chicago was the destination for all our sewage, for example. The township and the county provided most of the services. The village I lived in didn't have a line item on the bill. However, they did charge monthly to collect the trash. To be honest I don't know how they got their money to operate. The only other bills from the village had to do with water distribution and a vehicle sticker for the car. Now that I think about it, that last sticker is still on the windshield. LOL
Tax life here in O'Fallon looks a lot like what I saw by Chicago. There is only one annual itemized bill for the schools and other stuff. O'Fallon gets paid for trash collection and water distribution. A second bill for personal property is also sent. The BIG difference is the cost of all these things. It's roughly one third what I was paying previously. Your taxes are about 10% of that. I can't imagine you getting any services at all for what you pay. LOL
Apparently what is happening in your situation is perfectly legal. Your property can be taxed simultaneously by any number of taxing bodies. In Illinois we only got one tax bill but it was excessively high, which was a major factor in the decision to leave. All the services were listed on the bill and they didn't all come from the same place. Chicago was the destination for all our sewage, for example. The township and the county provided most of the services. The village I lived in didn't have a line item on the bill. However, they did charge monthly to collect the trash. To be honest I don't know how they got their money to operate. The only other bills from the village had to do with water distribution and a vehicle sticker for the car. Now that I think about it, that last sticker is still on the windshield. LOL
Tax life here in O'Fallon looks a lot like what I saw by Chicago. There is only one annual itemized bill for the schools and other stuff. O'Fallon gets paid for trash collection and water distribution. A second bill for personal property is also sent. The BIG difference is the cost of all these things. It's roughly one third what I was paying previously. Your taxes are about 10% of that. I can't imagine you getting any services at all for what you pay. LOL
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Honestly Yogi, our taxes here are much higher than what I paid in all the years I lived in Creve Coeur.
Plus some of our taxes went to things like the Zoo, Museums, Forest Park, the Science Center, etc. so all of those places were free to visit. Down here, we pay for nearly everything, I don't know of anything free down here.
Using the exact calculations used by St. Louis County and how they determine those taxes, if my house and land were in St. Louis County, my taxes would only be around 450 bucks a year, not over 600 bucks a year.
I still had all of my tax bills from St. Louis County when I moved down here.
And right after we were annexed and doubled our taxes, I got them out to compare.
St. Louis County determines a part of their tax by the square footage of living space at one rate, square footage of basement area one rate for unfinished, another slightly higher rate for finished. Number of bedrooms, number of rooms with water and sewer services, and also a second floor if you had it was about the same rate as the first floor.
Also the size of the footprint on the land the house covered. Also the size of your property.
My taxes back home comparing square footage and usage to the square footage and usage here, simply meant that if this house was sitting where my Creve Coeur house was, my taxes would only be 450 bucks, not the 1400 bucks I was paying at the time I did those calculations.
Here, although my taxes have gone up some, they have always been 600 or above after the annexation.
This house is only a single floor, no basement, and only two rooms with water and sewer service.
My house back home was a single floor ranch, but it had a basement, and five rooms with water and sewer service.
The master bedroom, girls bedroom, and hall had a full-bath. They boys room a half-bath, and the basement had a full-bath. They didn't count the laundry area as an area with water and sewer service, probably because it used the same stack as one of the other bathrooms or a kitchen depending on how the house was laid out.
I don't know about sewer prices back home now, but our sewer bill was normally 1/4th of our water bill.
Down here, our sewer bill was originally double our water bill, but is now three to four times higher than our water bill.
Which seems odd, since we have very few sewers here. Naturally we have a sanitary sewer, but we don't have storm sewers, road sewers, or piped watershed as we did in St. Louis County. We have a ditch in our front yard for roadway water run-off and that's it. So why the super high prices?
Plus some of our taxes went to things like the Zoo, Museums, Forest Park, the Science Center, etc. so all of those places were free to visit. Down here, we pay for nearly everything, I don't know of anything free down here.
Using the exact calculations used by St. Louis County and how they determine those taxes, if my house and land were in St. Louis County, my taxes would only be around 450 bucks a year, not over 600 bucks a year.
I still had all of my tax bills from St. Louis County when I moved down here.
And right after we were annexed and doubled our taxes, I got them out to compare.
St. Louis County determines a part of their tax by the square footage of living space at one rate, square footage of basement area one rate for unfinished, another slightly higher rate for finished. Number of bedrooms, number of rooms with water and sewer services, and also a second floor if you had it was about the same rate as the first floor.
Also the size of the footprint on the land the house covered. Also the size of your property.
My taxes back home comparing square footage and usage to the square footage and usage here, simply meant that if this house was sitting where my Creve Coeur house was, my taxes would only be 450 bucks, not the 1400 bucks I was paying at the time I did those calculations.
Here, although my taxes have gone up some, they have always been 600 or above after the annexation.
This house is only a single floor, no basement, and only two rooms with water and sewer service.
My house back home was a single floor ranch, but it had a basement, and five rooms with water and sewer service.
The master bedroom, girls bedroom, and hall had a full-bath. They boys room a half-bath, and the basement had a full-bath. They didn't count the laundry area as an area with water and sewer service, probably because it used the same stack as one of the other bathrooms or a kitchen depending on how the house was laid out.
I don't know about sewer prices back home now, but our sewer bill was normally 1/4th of our water bill.
Down here, our sewer bill was originally double our water bill, but is now three to four times higher than our water bill.
Which seems odd, since we have very few sewers here. Naturally we have a sanitary sewer, but we don't have storm sewers, road sewers, or piped watershed as we did in St. Louis County. We have a ditch in our front yard for roadway water run-off and that's it. So why the super high prices?
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The area I lived in near Chicago was typically in the top three most expensive places to live in America. Silicon Valley generally came in first place but we beat them out a time or two. I don't know about those other places, but the Chicago metropolitan area has around 13 million residents. It's very densely populated in the city itself and merely cramped in most of the suburbs. Six counties cover that area and two of them were the most expensive. This brings to mind some basic economics. What ever happened to the idea of economy of scale? Would it not be less expensive say, per square mile, than a city with less than 100k people? A lot of things must be considered there, but the majority of the waste was due to redundant services. We had the local Roselle police department. We also were protected by the Cook County Sheriff. The Illinois State Troopers also enforced the laws on the Interstate I used to get to work everyday. We also were part of a township, which I never did figure out what purpose they served other than to calculate the tax I must pay to the library in the next town over. So, we had three police departments covering the same square mile of land, all of which had the support of some very expensive unions behind them. Is, or was, that really necessary? I think not. But, it goes a long way to explain where all that tax money goes.
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Missouri was a little different than Illinois. Was across the river enough times talking to friends and business acquaintances to learn of the differences between the two states.
As you said, in Illinois, all law enforcement covers the already covered smaller areas. Such as state covers the entire state, county covers the entire county, and city covers the city.
In Missouri, State covers the entire state and federally owned lands in the state, aka Interstate Highways. They also cover counties that have no county law enforcement, although all counties have a sheriff, they can't usually cover the whole of some counties. In those cases, state covers both the state and county owned roads.
County Sheriffs cover only the unincorporated areas of the county, and those cities and towns who do not have their own police department.
Normally, a city or town police department has no jurisdiction outside the city, unless they are pursuit.
Unlike the southern states, a County Sheriff can cross county boundary lines, even when not in pursuit.
Southern states are changing. It used to be a Sheriff could not cross a county line in pursuit of anything less than a class A Felony. It was down to a class C Felony about the time I moved down here. But they still can't cross county lines for a misdemeanor. There is one exception to this. If they are in pursuit of a vehicle who broke some traffic law, but the person they are pursuing does not speed up to get away. In other words, they just wouldn't stop, but did not run from the police, then the county cannot cross a county line. Although that recently changed in Blount County a couple of years ago.
There is a little tail of Blount County that sticks into Knox County on Chapman Highway, a distance of just shy of 1/2 mile.
If their are no Seymour cops around, the kids use that straight stretch of road as a drag strip, hi hi. But they Start in South Knox County, cross the county line into Blount County to run their 1/4 mile race. The Blount County Sheriff could not patrol this short stretch of highway because there are no roads connecting to it within Blount County, hi hi.
Now, all of West Blount County is under the law enforcement of the Knox County Sheriff's department.
The entire United States is divided up into Townships, which has a different meaning that it is used sometimes. A small Town is not a Township, although sometimes they call themselves that.
Without getting too complicated here. The entire globe is divided up into Grid Zone Designations. This system uses Letters for Latitude and Numbers for Longitude.
This is further broken down into Square Identification.
And broken down again to Grid Coordinates
Where the longitude meridian line is crossed by the latitude base line, this is the Center Point of a Range.
Their are four Ranges NE, NW, SE, & SW. At this point they are called Quadrangles.
These Quadrangles are further divided into Townships which also use the Center Point of a Range but like only within their Quadrangle.
A Quadrangle is normally 24 miles by 24 miles square, roughly 576 square miles, with adjustments due to the curvature of the earth.
The Quadrangle is broken down into Townships which is normally 6 miles by 6 miles square, roughly 36 square miles, again with adjustments for the curvature of the earth, or in some cases, strange lays of the land or waterways.
Townships are broken down into Sections 1 mile by 1 mile square, of course only 1 square mile, sometimes with a slight trim due to curvature of the earth, but you usually don't see this at such a small scale.
NONE of the above has anything to do with state, county, city, or town. But your property deed is geared exactly to it.
Townships and the size of farms which were originally divided up based on the Quadrangle, is why so many early roads and streets followed this grid pattern. While newer roads just followed the lay of the land as closely as possible.
Taxes are usually based on population zones which normally have nothing to do with the survey lines of the country.
As you said, in Illinois, all law enforcement covers the already covered smaller areas. Such as state covers the entire state, county covers the entire county, and city covers the city.
In Missouri, State covers the entire state and federally owned lands in the state, aka Interstate Highways. They also cover counties that have no county law enforcement, although all counties have a sheriff, they can't usually cover the whole of some counties. In those cases, state covers both the state and county owned roads.
County Sheriffs cover only the unincorporated areas of the county, and those cities and towns who do not have their own police department.
Normally, a city or town police department has no jurisdiction outside the city, unless they are pursuit.
Unlike the southern states, a County Sheriff can cross county boundary lines, even when not in pursuit.
Southern states are changing. It used to be a Sheriff could not cross a county line in pursuit of anything less than a class A Felony. It was down to a class C Felony about the time I moved down here. But they still can't cross county lines for a misdemeanor. There is one exception to this. If they are in pursuit of a vehicle who broke some traffic law, but the person they are pursuing does not speed up to get away. In other words, they just wouldn't stop, but did not run from the police, then the county cannot cross a county line. Although that recently changed in Blount County a couple of years ago.
There is a little tail of Blount County that sticks into Knox County on Chapman Highway, a distance of just shy of 1/2 mile.
If their are no Seymour cops around, the kids use that straight stretch of road as a drag strip, hi hi. But they Start in South Knox County, cross the county line into Blount County to run their 1/4 mile race. The Blount County Sheriff could not patrol this short stretch of highway because there are no roads connecting to it within Blount County, hi hi.
Now, all of West Blount County is under the law enforcement of the Knox County Sheriff's department.
The entire United States is divided up into Townships, which has a different meaning that it is used sometimes. A small Town is not a Township, although sometimes they call themselves that.
Without getting too complicated here. The entire globe is divided up into Grid Zone Designations. This system uses Letters for Latitude and Numbers for Longitude.
This is further broken down into Square Identification.
And broken down again to Grid Coordinates
Where the longitude meridian line is crossed by the latitude base line, this is the Center Point of a Range.
Their are four Ranges NE, NW, SE, & SW. At this point they are called Quadrangles.
These Quadrangles are further divided into Townships which also use the Center Point of a Range but like only within their Quadrangle.
A Quadrangle is normally 24 miles by 24 miles square, roughly 576 square miles, with adjustments due to the curvature of the earth.
The Quadrangle is broken down into Townships which is normally 6 miles by 6 miles square, roughly 36 square miles, again with adjustments for the curvature of the earth, or in some cases, strange lays of the land or waterways.
Townships are broken down into Sections 1 mile by 1 mile square, of course only 1 square mile, sometimes with a slight trim due to curvature of the earth, but you usually don't see this at such a small scale.
NONE of the above has anything to do with state, county, city, or town. But your property deed is geared exactly to it.
Townships and the size of farms which were originally divided up based on the Quadrangle, is why so many early roads and streets followed this grid pattern. While newer roads just followed the lay of the land as closely as possible.
Taxes are usually based on population zones which normally have nothing to do with the survey lines of the country.
Re: The Rest Of The Story
Thanks for the details about townships. It's all very interesting and new material to me, although I have heard and read references to it a few times over the years. The township I lived in included a library that was very popular statewide. It was way better than the library of my home village but bore the name of the suburb just north of me. There was a time when their library card would work in both places, but for some reason unknown to man that changed. We ended up with two library cards. Be that as it may, I'm reasonably certain the township had some sort of governing board. All I know about them is that the county tax assessor's office was located in that township and that the township had some kind of taxing authority. That's why they appeared on my county real estate tax bill. Thinking about it now I can't recall from where our local library got its funds. They existed like the village itself, out of nowhere. Somehow they were all funded and I'm sure I was paying for it. I just don't know how. 
I know about jurisdictions of the various law enforcement agencies. I also know why they exist. Each level of government makes it's own laws and they need some way to enforce them. It would be unreasonable for the state trooper to know the local laws and vice versa. However, the FBI, a federal agency, seems to know all the laws in all the places. A single agency like them could replace all the little guys and simplify the operation. Then it wouldn't matter where you broke the law. Any enforcement officer can nab you.
I know about jurisdictions of the various law enforcement agencies. I also know why they exist. Each level of government makes it's own laws and they need some way to enforce them. It would be unreasonable for the state trooper to know the local laws and vice versa. However, the FBI, a federal agency, seems to know all the laws in all the places. A single agency like them could replace all the little guys and simplify the operation. Then it wouldn't matter where you broke the law. Any enforcement officer can nab you.
Last edited by yogi on 09 May 2020, 18:01, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The Rest Of The Story
I don't know of this is still true or not, because I'm going way way back here with my limited knowledge.
And even so, I may not have understood it clearly back then either.
I'll move up a few years here first so this makes a little more sense, perhaps.
The State Highway Patrol has jurisdiction over the Interstate Highways.
A County must get permission to enforce State Laws on the Interstate in their County, and there is probably a fee or profit sharing with the State to do so.
Now lets drop down to State Owned Highways, which often go by Route Numbers, besides local names.
Although they are a State Highway, they are usually patrolled by the County Sheriff's Department, within their respective counties. Before the Interstate System, the State Highway Patrol is who normally patrolled State owned roads.
As more and more towns and cities established their own police departments, they normally did not take care of the state owned roads, which was usually only one or two roads at the time, that passed through the city or town.
The County Sheriff was more less relegated to take care of all roads, State and County roads in unincorporated areas.
Now in our town, the State Highway was patrolled by the county up until the city got permission to write tickets on the main road through town. It was the county who maintained this road, probably with state funds. And you would see the County Sheriff passing through as he was going from one unincorporated area to another. But this sorta ended when the only unincorporated areas were further west of us.
As far as what laws a town or city could enforce, had to do with who owned the ordinance. In most cases it was the County who owned the ordinance, until later on when the city established their own ordinances.
Seems like, the city had to pay the county to adopt an ordinance for themselves.
Way back in the 1960's, a street sign was a convenient reminder with a two edge sword.
Although a law stated you had to stop at a particular intersection, it was not valid unless a sign was posted stating same.
Such as a stop sign. Some fancy lawyers claimed you did not have to stop for the sign, but for the ordinance that the sign is a warning regarding. Then they managed to make a sign placed by ordinance invalid if the ordinance number was not posted on the sign. After that, nearly every stop sign in the county had the county ordinance number printed in white on the lower part of the sign, well below the word STOP, and above the border line around the sign. Then as you entered cities or towns you may see two ordinance numbers on the sign. The Cities ordinance number posted above the Counties ordinance number. I think by the middle or late 1980s they no longer had to have the ordinance number in a prominent location on the sign, if it was still required at all. I do know for a time, the ordinance was posted on the back of some signs, but that was even rare.
I was riding with a friend who got pulled over in Illinois on Route 3, which we used often going down to Kentucky.
He was stopped by the State Police and we had to wait for the County Sheriff to come to write the physical ticket.
Why this was so I don't know, but I assume because the County bought the right to the ordinance through that area.
It was something dumb to start with, like he was not completely in his lane to avoid the potholes along the edge.
I think the ticket cost him all of like 25 or 30 bucks, mailed in.
And even so, I may not have understood it clearly back then either.
I'll move up a few years here first so this makes a little more sense, perhaps.
The State Highway Patrol has jurisdiction over the Interstate Highways.
A County must get permission to enforce State Laws on the Interstate in their County, and there is probably a fee or profit sharing with the State to do so.
Now lets drop down to State Owned Highways, which often go by Route Numbers, besides local names.
Although they are a State Highway, they are usually patrolled by the County Sheriff's Department, within their respective counties. Before the Interstate System, the State Highway Patrol is who normally patrolled State owned roads.
As more and more towns and cities established their own police departments, they normally did not take care of the state owned roads, which was usually only one or two roads at the time, that passed through the city or town.
The County Sheriff was more less relegated to take care of all roads, State and County roads in unincorporated areas.
Now in our town, the State Highway was patrolled by the county up until the city got permission to write tickets on the main road through town. It was the county who maintained this road, probably with state funds. And you would see the County Sheriff passing through as he was going from one unincorporated area to another. But this sorta ended when the only unincorporated areas were further west of us.
As far as what laws a town or city could enforce, had to do with who owned the ordinance. In most cases it was the County who owned the ordinance, until later on when the city established their own ordinances.
Seems like, the city had to pay the county to adopt an ordinance for themselves.
Way back in the 1960's, a street sign was a convenient reminder with a two edge sword.
Although a law stated you had to stop at a particular intersection, it was not valid unless a sign was posted stating same.
Such as a stop sign. Some fancy lawyers claimed you did not have to stop for the sign, but for the ordinance that the sign is a warning regarding. Then they managed to make a sign placed by ordinance invalid if the ordinance number was not posted on the sign. After that, nearly every stop sign in the county had the county ordinance number printed in white on the lower part of the sign, well below the word STOP, and above the border line around the sign. Then as you entered cities or towns you may see two ordinance numbers on the sign. The Cities ordinance number posted above the Counties ordinance number. I think by the middle or late 1980s they no longer had to have the ordinance number in a prominent location on the sign, if it was still required at all. I do know for a time, the ordinance was posted on the back of some signs, but that was even rare.
I was riding with a friend who got pulled over in Illinois on Route 3, which we used often going down to Kentucky.
He was stopped by the State Police and we had to wait for the County Sheriff to come to write the physical ticket.
Why this was so I don't know, but I assume because the County bought the right to the ordinance through that area.
It was something dumb to start with, like he was not completely in his lane to avoid the potholes along the edge.
I think the ticket cost him all of like 25 or 30 bucks, mailed in.
Re: The Rest Of The Story
It all boils down to money, income for the citation issuer. I think it could be run from one state law enforcement entity and they can split the profits any which way they like. A single policing authority would simplify things and very likely reduce the taxes for that service as well. But, as is all politics, the world is run on money and deal makers. For example:
There was a stretch of road between Chicago and DuBuque Iowa called Rt 20. I'm pretty sure it was a state road, but that doesn't matter for this story. As you got closer to the Mississippi, where Galena is located, the terrain gets hilly. There are some awesome scenic spots along that part of the route which is very rural. It even looks beautiful in winter. The stretch approaching Galena for about thirty miles is notorious for speed traps. Lots of hills make it easy to exceed the limit. There have been articles written saying the county officials admitted in a laughing way that they love to see the Chicago tourists come roaring through on their way to Galena because it is so profitable. They like to target Cook County (Chicago) vehicles in particular. Fair enough. We have been warned. One place in particular has a high hill with a sharp incline that requires your foot on the brake in order to stay within the speed limit. Of course, that is where the county mounties park and aim their laser speed measuring devices. Of all the times I had to drive that course, I was caught only once by the county sheriff.
I had the option of appearing in court to request a trial which was about 150 miles from where I lived. Or, I could just plea guilty and mail them the $300 they demanded. This incident, of course, would be reported to the DMV and my insurance company should I enter a guilty plea. However, they would waive that notification if I completed a safe driving course at their local community college. The course was not free. I had to pay to register with the college and pay again for the test material which in my case was on line. I didn't want to travel that 150 miles to sit for a test I didn't want to take. The waiver would only take effect if the judge of the court got a letter of my successful completion from the college prior to a certain cut off date. The damned safety test took me six hours to complete online. I took notes because I knew there would be questions, and it paid off. I aced the test.
So, I maintained a clean driving record because I paid $300 for 13 mph over the limit, then something like another $150 to take a test. Was the sheriff and the Community College real happy about all that? Yes, they were laughing all the way to the bank. I was very impressed with how the system was organized so well to process a lot of citations. It was the most obvious setup I ever had the misfortune to encounter. And, by the way, I did walk away from that course with some new and useful knowledge. They showed me clearly how to adjust my side view mirrors for safe driving.
There was a stretch of road between Chicago and DuBuque Iowa called Rt 20. I'm pretty sure it was a state road, but that doesn't matter for this story. As you got closer to the Mississippi, where Galena is located, the terrain gets hilly. There are some awesome scenic spots along that part of the route which is very rural. It even looks beautiful in winter. The stretch approaching Galena for about thirty miles is notorious for speed traps. Lots of hills make it easy to exceed the limit. There have been articles written saying the county officials admitted in a laughing way that they love to see the Chicago tourists come roaring through on their way to Galena because it is so profitable. They like to target Cook County (Chicago) vehicles in particular. Fair enough. We have been warned. One place in particular has a high hill with a sharp incline that requires your foot on the brake in order to stay within the speed limit. Of course, that is where the county mounties park and aim their laser speed measuring devices. Of all the times I had to drive that course, I was caught only once by the county sheriff.
I had the option of appearing in court to request a trial which was about 150 miles from where I lived. Or, I could just plea guilty and mail them the $300 they demanded. This incident, of course, would be reported to the DMV and my insurance company should I enter a guilty plea. However, they would waive that notification if I completed a safe driving course at their local community college. The course was not free. I had to pay to register with the college and pay again for the test material which in my case was on line. I didn't want to travel that 150 miles to sit for a test I didn't want to take. The waiver would only take effect if the judge of the court got a letter of my successful completion from the college prior to a certain cut off date. The damned safety test took me six hours to complete online. I took notes because I knew there would be questions, and it paid off. I aced the test.
So, I maintained a clean driving record because I paid $300 for 13 mph over the limit, then something like another $150 to take a test. Was the sheriff and the Community College real happy about all that? Yes, they were laughing all the way to the bank. I was very impressed with how the system was organized so well to process a lot of citations. It was the most obvious setup I ever had the misfortune to encounter. And, by the way, I did walk away from that course with some new and useful knowledge. They showed me clearly how to adjust my side view mirrors for safe driving.
Re: The Rest Of The Story
I got nailed twice and technically I was not breaking any laws either time, except fake road trap signs they were not properly used. Both fines were for over 700 bucks each too! Also, in both cases, my attorney told me to just pay the fines or my costs could be more than double.
On one of them, there was a single sign on the side of the road that said Work Zone next 11-1/2 miles.
For the first three miles, the speed limit signs were covered with black bags. Then no more.
I never saw a single barrel, cone, or any type of construction of any kind.
When I got up to about ten miles I sped back up to the POSTED speed limit.
On the downhill side over the next ridge was about 20 cops pulling everybody over and writing us tickets for speeding in a work zone.
As far as I'm concerned, what they did was illegal, entrapment, and a major abuse of the purpose of work zones.
But what can you do, even the attorneys don't want to mess with the crooked towns along that route.
I told you about the other time when I was pulling a heavily loaded trailer, uphill, in a vehicle with an 85 mph governor on it. They said I was doing like 97 mph in a 55 mph zone. Cost me a bundle then too! Even after I had the Mo Hwy Patrol figure out why my car was messing with the radar guns. They figured it out, but it did no good as far as my ticket. They got all kinds of readings they said were erroneous, and that was with a cop driving the car at a fixed speed and another cop using three different types of radar guns. I had so many Ham antenna's on my car rocking back and forth it messed with their meters. The most likely culprit was a pair of triple 10-meter whips about 100 inches tall co-phased together. If I didn't word that properly to understand, by 10-meter antenna consisted of SIX 100 inch whips, three on a triangular mounting plate, and placed on each side of the back of the car. Plus I had an antenna for all the other bands too, from UHF to VHF, and a couple of HF antenna's as well. Some say I looked like a picket fence going down the road, hi hi.
Needless to say, I removed most of the large antenna's and stuck with the little loaded antenna's after that ticket.
I've always had 3 mirrors on each side of my vehicle, so I never missed much of anything.
Not only on the big rigs, but also on my personal vehicles.
Long before they started putting cameras for a rear view, some of the OTR drivers had mirrors on the back edge of the trailers. I tried a pair myself once. About the only thing they are good for is to see if there is something of color behind you so you knew their might be a car or truck on your tail. Too far away to make out what it was though.
Although one of the drivers I knew had a special reversed curve mirror on his truck which sorta acted like a magnifying lens, and it was focused on his back trailer mirror. He could tell if it was a car or a truck, and sometimes how many people were in the front seat. If someone got too close behind him, he would tap his brakes just enough to make the brake lights come on a few times.
He quit driving before I did, and for the same reason I did. But in his case, it was after he earned the 35k bonus.
On one of them, there was a single sign on the side of the road that said Work Zone next 11-1/2 miles.
For the first three miles, the speed limit signs were covered with black bags. Then no more.
I never saw a single barrel, cone, or any type of construction of any kind.
When I got up to about ten miles I sped back up to the POSTED speed limit.
On the downhill side over the next ridge was about 20 cops pulling everybody over and writing us tickets for speeding in a work zone.
As far as I'm concerned, what they did was illegal, entrapment, and a major abuse of the purpose of work zones.
But what can you do, even the attorneys don't want to mess with the crooked towns along that route.
I told you about the other time when I was pulling a heavily loaded trailer, uphill, in a vehicle with an 85 mph governor on it. They said I was doing like 97 mph in a 55 mph zone. Cost me a bundle then too! Even after I had the Mo Hwy Patrol figure out why my car was messing with the radar guns. They figured it out, but it did no good as far as my ticket. They got all kinds of readings they said were erroneous, and that was with a cop driving the car at a fixed speed and another cop using three different types of radar guns. I had so many Ham antenna's on my car rocking back and forth it messed with their meters. The most likely culprit was a pair of triple 10-meter whips about 100 inches tall co-phased together. If I didn't word that properly to understand, by 10-meter antenna consisted of SIX 100 inch whips, three on a triangular mounting plate, and placed on each side of the back of the car. Plus I had an antenna for all the other bands too, from UHF to VHF, and a couple of HF antenna's as well. Some say I looked like a picket fence going down the road, hi hi.
Needless to say, I removed most of the large antenna's and stuck with the little loaded antenna's after that ticket.
I've always had 3 mirrors on each side of my vehicle, so I never missed much of anything.
Not only on the big rigs, but also on my personal vehicles.
Long before they started putting cameras for a rear view, some of the OTR drivers had mirrors on the back edge of the trailers. I tried a pair myself once. About the only thing they are good for is to see if there is something of color behind you so you knew their might be a car or truck on your tail. Too far away to make out what it was though.
Although one of the drivers I knew had a special reversed curve mirror on his truck which sorta acted like a magnifying lens, and it was focused on his back trailer mirror. He could tell if it was a car or a truck, and sometimes how many people were in the front seat. If someone got too close behind him, he would tap his brakes just enough to make the brake lights come on a few times.
He quit driving before I did, and for the same reason I did. But in his case, it was after he earned the 35k bonus.
Re: The Rest Of The Story
It is my understanding that those work zone speed limits only apply when workmen are present and work is in progress. At least that is the understanding I brought with me from Illinois. It's the same as school speed limits. They only apply when children are present. But, then, who am I to argue with the police? Entrapment is a very slippery slope and the judge usually favors the law enforcement people over the guy getting the ticket. In the end, whether you were entrapped or not, the speed law was broken. Thus the fine is appropriate. The problem with contesting it in court is that you have to pay the court fees too should you lose. Your lawyer was right. It's just not worth it.
In my situation, which was so very well planned out, there were actually two different cops that recorded my speed. One was hiding in the bushes with his trusty radar gun and the other was driving up the other side of the 4 lane divided highway. That cop had a laser detector which is not subject to the same kind of interference as is radar. The typical legal argument in such situations is to petition the records for calibration and training that the applies to the equipment and people using it. If it can't be produced in court, the case gets tossed most of the time. The cop who interviewed me mentioned that all that paperwork was already on file, but I was welcome to see him in court if I chose to do so. Bastards.
I don't understand why truckers don't kill more idiot drivers than they do. People do crazy things on the road and the drivers are to blame if they hurt anybody.
In my situation, which was so very well planned out, there were actually two different cops that recorded my speed. One was hiding in the bushes with his trusty radar gun and the other was driving up the other side of the 4 lane divided highway. That cop had a laser detector which is not subject to the same kind of interference as is radar. The typical legal argument in such situations is to petition the records for calibration and training that the applies to the equipment and people using it. If it can't be produced in court, the case gets tossed most of the time. The cop who interviewed me mentioned that all that paperwork was already on file, but I was welcome to see him in court if I chose to do so. Bastards.
I don't understand why truckers don't kill more idiot drivers than they do. People do crazy things on the road and the drivers are to blame if they hurt anybody.
Re: The Rest Of The Story
None of the OTR companies I worked for, other than our own company of course, could you stay working for them if you got a ticket, although they did allow for some they considered ridiculous, hi hi. But if you are involved in an accident, even if you are hit from behind by some clown, there goes your job most of the time.
In fact, that is how I ended up getting short-term jobs for the two different gravel companies I drove for.
In both cases, their driver got fired over a minor accident, neither were their fault, and they had a load that needed to be delivered immediately. One load led to another, and another, and another, until they hired a full-time driver again.
Seeing the calibration report on the guns used would not help me one bit. The guns themselves were right, but what they were reading was wrong. They were reading all of my antenna's rocking back and forth. The Mo Hwy Patrol figured this out when they were running tests on my vehicle with them driving it at a fixed speed. But any gun they used gave fluctuating readings, some lower, some higher, and a few the correct speed. They wrote their findings on an official letter for me to send to the court, but my attorney said not to poke them or I'll be sorry. Just pay it!
I would have had to make a minimum of three 350 mile trips to appear in court, and more like up to five trips.
Plus I would have had to have a couple of Mo Hwy Patrol officers there too as witnesses, and my lawyer said, without a subpoena requiring it, they would decline for it being out of their jurisdiction.
We have NUMEROUS speed traps here, and many of them make absolutely no sense at all.
We have long stretches of road with absolutely NO entrances or exits, no driveways, etc.
They set the speed limit on this part of the road at 20 mph.
In one case, the 20 mph section is just off a 65 mph highway and starts at the end of a 45 mph exit ramp.
It continues on at 20 mph with NO entrances or exits until you turn onto another road that leads to a hospital.
This road you turn onto has many entrances and exists, one lane from the highway merges onto this road, the hospital has several entrances and exits on the north side of the road, businesses on the south side have several entrances and exits.
Yet they set the speed on this road at 45 mph. It shouldn't be over 30 mph in that congested area with many cars pulling in and out of the entrances and exists on either side. Then as you get further down this road, away from the congestion and where there are only a couple of driveways to private residences, they drop the speed down to 30 mph there.
Totally illogical. And those 20 mph stretches on clear roadways are numerous down here, and for no reason except to write more speeding tickets. The normal safe speed on these roads are probably around 45 mph, so most folks come sailing through at around 40 mph. As far as a ticket goes, that is DOUBLE the posted speed limit, so the fines and points are great.
We had this same problem in Missouri for a very short time, until the county passed a law, no speed limit below 25 mph except in school zones. And even most of those were still 25 mph except right at crossing areas.
Down here, and in Kentucky for sure. A work zone is anyplace they put a Work Zone Sign.
Illinois and Missouri there must be actual work going on, from what I understand.
In fact, that is how I ended up getting short-term jobs for the two different gravel companies I drove for.
In both cases, their driver got fired over a minor accident, neither were their fault, and they had a load that needed to be delivered immediately. One load led to another, and another, and another, until they hired a full-time driver again.
Seeing the calibration report on the guns used would not help me one bit. The guns themselves were right, but what they were reading was wrong. They were reading all of my antenna's rocking back and forth. The Mo Hwy Patrol figured this out when they were running tests on my vehicle with them driving it at a fixed speed. But any gun they used gave fluctuating readings, some lower, some higher, and a few the correct speed. They wrote their findings on an official letter for me to send to the court, but my attorney said not to poke them or I'll be sorry. Just pay it!
I would have had to make a minimum of three 350 mile trips to appear in court, and more like up to five trips.
Plus I would have had to have a couple of Mo Hwy Patrol officers there too as witnesses, and my lawyer said, without a subpoena requiring it, they would decline for it being out of their jurisdiction.
We have NUMEROUS speed traps here, and many of them make absolutely no sense at all.
We have long stretches of road with absolutely NO entrances or exits, no driveways, etc.
They set the speed limit on this part of the road at 20 mph.
In one case, the 20 mph section is just off a 65 mph highway and starts at the end of a 45 mph exit ramp.
It continues on at 20 mph with NO entrances or exits until you turn onto another road that leads to a hospital.
This road you turn onto has many entrances and exists, one lane from the highway merges onto this road, the hospital has several entrances and exits on the north side of the road, businesses on the south side have several entrances and exits.
Yet they set the speed on this road at 45 mph. It shouldn't be over 30 mph in that congested area with many cars pulling in and out of the entrances and exists on either side. Then as you get further down this road, away from the congestion and where there are only a couple of driveways to private residences, they drop the speed down to 30 mph there.
Totally illogical. And those 20 mph stretches on clear roadways are numerous down here, and for no reason except to write more speeding tickets. The normal safe speed on these roads are probably around 45 mph, so most folks come sailing through at around 40 mph. As far as a ticket goes, that is DOUBLE the posted speed limit, so the fines and points are great.
We had this same problem in Missouri for a very short time, until the county passed a law, no speed limit below 25 mph except in school zones. And even most of those were still 25 mph except right at crossing areas.
Down here, and in Kentucky for sure. A work zone is anyplace they put a Work Zone Sign.
Illinois and Missouri there must be actual work going on, from what I understand.
Re: The Rest Of The Story
In theory there are traffic engineers who have the job of figuring out what the right speed is for a given road. A lot of factors must be considered, not the least of which is the number of accident reports along a given road. I doubt that applies to those 20 mph speed zones of which you speak, but a fatal accident along a desolate road in the middle of nowhere could cause somebody to think the correct speed limit is just above jogging speed.
The main highway onto which my subdivision exits is a twenty mile stretch of two lane country road. It's a very pleasant drive all the way across it at 45 mph. We are at the extreme east end, and are the subdivision just before the highway ends at the main street going through town. That 45 mph speed limit was in force all the way up to the stop light when we moved in. It's about a mile and a half from me to the stop light on that highway with a very small strip mall half way down the road. One day an accident occurred by that mall. To be honest I don't know if it had injuries or fatalities, but the speed limit was reduced down to 40 mph shortly thereafter. Really now? It's a minor adjustment that in my opinion will have no impact whatsoever on the accident rate (which apparently is one every three years), but some traffic engineer somewhere decided to lower the limit. At first I thought it was a speed trap. The cops in fact did openly patrol that section of road for about a week after the speed change. Haven't seen anyone getting a ticket there ever and, of course, I know of no accidents after the change. What really surprised me, being from Illinois as I am, is that the residents driving that road now actually reduced their speed by that 5 mph. The drivers in Missouri are very strange. LOL
The main highway onto which my subdivision exits is a twenty mile stretch of two lane country road. It's a very pleasant drive all the way across it at 45 mph. We are at the extreme east end, and are the subdivision just before the highway ends at the main street going through town. That 45 mph speed limit was in force all the way up to the stop light when we moved in. It's about a mile and a half from me to the stop light on that highway with a very small strip mall half way down the road. One day an accident occurred by that mall. To be honest I don't know if it had injuries or fatalities, but the speed limit was reduced down to 40 mph shortly thereafter. Really now? It's a minor adjustment that in my opinion will have no impact whatsoever on the accident rate (which apparently is one every three years), but some traffic engineer somewhere decided to lower the limit. At first I thought it was a speed trap. The cops in fact did openly patrol that section of road for about a week after the speed change. Haven't seen anyone getting a ticket there ever and, of course, I know of no accidents after the change. What really surprised me, being from Illinois as I am, is that the residents driving that road now actually reduced their speed by that 5 mph. The drivers in Missouri are very strange. LOL
Re: The Rest Of The Story
I don't know if it applies in all states. But I do know for a fact in Missouri, "The Normal Flow of Traffic" supersedes the posted speed limit.
When I worked at McDonnell-Douglas, after shift-change, the cars heading home would be barreling 50 and 55 mph down LIndbergh Boulevard, which was posted 40 mph at the time.
There was a cop a couple of cars behind me, so I slowed down to around 42 mph, since they don't usually bother you unless you are 5 mph over the posted speed limit.
The two behind me passed me up like I was sitting still, and the cop started to also, but pulled back in behind me and kicked on his lights. I pulled over, he pulled over. I asked what he stopped me for, especially with everyone else speeding.
His exact words were, you are supposed to keep up with the normal flow of traffic to avoid congestion and lane changes for drivers to get around you. I said to him, then you would give me a ticket for speeding.
His reply, I could give you a ticket for obstructing traffic. About that time he got a call and told me to drive safely.
We had a few cops who worked while off-duty as delivery drivers. All of them told me I was given bad information. You are not allowed to go faster than the posted speed limit under any circumstance.
A few weeks later I happened to be talking to the Chief of Police, and he told me that YES I could be ticketed for obstructing traffic if everyone around me is sailing past, and it is making it hard for them to pass. Usually only applies on a two-lane road where it is not safe to pass though.
When I told him where it was the officer stopped me. He had a wise crack first, but then said, in that case, I probably would not get a ticket for speeding, although it is still illegal to speed. They are more concerned with moving the heavy amount of traffic out to the highways as fast as possible.
My attorney told me under such circumstances, he could beat a ticket in court easily using Normal Flow of Traffic as a common case. Not all speed limit signs are based on studied traffic patterns, some of them are posted under the recommendation for obvious reasons. If everyone was driving safely, even though they were above the posted speed limit, it would be hard for a speeding ticket to not be thrown out of court.
When I worked at McDonnell-Douglas, after shift-change, the cars heading home would be barreling 50 and 55 mph down LIndbergh Boulevard, which was posted 40 mph at the time.
There was a cop a couple of cars behind me, so I slowed down to around 42 mph, since they don't usually bother you unless you are 5 mph over the posted speed limit.
The two behind me passed me up like I was sitting still, and the cop started to also, but pulled back in behind me and kicked on his lights. I pulled over, he pulled over. I asked what he stopped me for, especially with everyone else speeding.
His exact words were, you are supposed to keep up with the normal flow of traffic to avoid congestion and lane changes for drivers to get around you. I said to him, then you would give me a ticket for speeding.
His reply, I could give you a ticket for obstructing traffic. About that time he got a call and told me to drive safely.
We had a few cops who worked while off-duty as delivery drivers. All of them told me I was given bad information. You are not allowed to go faster than the posted speed limit under any circumstance.
A few weeks later I happened to be talking to the Chief of Police, and he told me that YES I could be ticketed for obstructing traffic if everyone around me is sailing past, and it is making it hard for them to pass. Usually only applies on a two-lane road where it is not safe to pass though.
When I told him where it was the officer stopped me. He had a wise crack first, but then said, in that case, I probably would not get a ticket for speeding, although it is still illegal to speed. They are more concerned with moving the heavy amount of traffic out to the highways as fast as possible.
My attorney told me under such circumstances, he could beat a ticket in court easily using Normal Flow of Traffic as a common case. Not all speed limit signs are based on studied traffic patterns, some of them are posted under the recommendation for obvious reasons. If everyone was driving safely, even though they were above the posted speed limit, it would be hard for a speeding ticket to not be thrown out of court.