FLoC

Ask questions and give answers about computers, mobile devices, game boxes, PC security and all manner of geeky stuff.
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yogi
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Re: FLoC

Post by yogi »

I don't know which brought in the most revenues for Microsoft, Office Suite or Windows OS. They were the geese that laid the golden eggs back in the day. 1997 was the last year I used any of Microsoft's Office software, but from what I can tell by the ads today they are as dominant as ever in that particular market. It has to be mostly corporations buying it because it is expensive to subscribe to the full packages. Microsoft apparently noted that very fact and is now offering "free" Office Suite software. Actually they took a hint from Google who also offers "free" Office Suite software of their own. Both are watered down products that will get the average job done, and both are resident in the cloud. If that's all you need, you can get it free. Or, like you and I certainly do, people can use Libre Office or the likes of it at no cost. They do beg for donations, but the Full Monty is what you get for free.

You told me more than a few times how you got computers for $300 which is hard to believe can be done at retail. Your explanations pointed out that you had a favored builder to whom you supplied several parts for the construction. Any decent computer even back ten years ago was a $500 investment to which you might have to add things like keyboards, mouses, and monitors, not to mention printers and extra storage. The full boat was easily a $1000 investment. That computer I linked to above is an All In One that has everything but the printer and external storage. I've never seen a homebrew with that form factor, and frankly it would cramp my style. But, a lot of people love those types precisely because of their simplicity. Component parts these days are not as cheap as they were ten years ago. You get a heck of a lot more for your money in 2021 than you did in 2011 and that adds to the costs. People are asking for more because services are available today which did not exist back in the cheap desktop days. As the desktop market dwindles down to a crawl, the prices will rise exponentially. Supply and demand, you know?
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Kellemora
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Re: FLoC

Post by Kellemora »

I normally donate a little bit to the maintainers of certain programs I use all the time.
Because of my financial status it isn't much, but makes me feel like I'm doing my part to help.

Hmm. Asus mobo's cost anywhere from 58 up to around 160 bucks. I never took the lowest price one, usually a step or two up from that. Most of the ones I selected were 85 bucks. A new tower cabinet with power supply was 40 bucks, and although you can get CPU's all the way up and over 1000 bucks each, I usually selected one in the 120 to 150 dollar price range. So we are only up to 275 bucks so far. If I add a 90 dollar Sata HD I would be up to 365 bucks. But then I would need new memory boards to go with the new mobo and cpu. 8gb sticks 3200mhz cost around 20 bucks each, can go up to 40 bucks each also.
My shop would build a machine like that for me for around 450 dollars when I checked last year. But said I would like a 650 buck machine a whole lot better. This would have another step up on the mobo and CPU, still Asus mobo with 6 core AMD CPU and 16 gigs of memory.
They often build several computers all at once, all identical, to have on their floor for sale. Which they will often price at around 700 bucks these days. But back when I bought mine, all the ones on the store shelf pre-made were around 350 to 400 bucks.
So I can see the price has doubled since then!

Although they gave away free keyboards, I didn't like the free ones, so took something else instead, like an external CD recorder/player which they sold for anywhere from 9 to 12 bucks is all.

I've never bought a new monitor at the time I bought a new computer. I still wouldn't. I have two unused monitors sitting here right now as backups if needed.
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Kellemora
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Re: FLoC

Post by Kellemora »

Forgot to say, if I took my old cabinets in, they usually had to upgrade the power supply which cost about the same as a new cabinet, so I took a new cabinet each time, hi hi.
A couple of times they gave me 10 bucks for my old cabinet, because they had some older mobo's with CPUs on them they could plug into them and sell as used computers.
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yogi
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Re: FLoC

Post by yogi »

I should not be surprised, but your method of specifying components are exactly opposite of what I do. I find the highest quality components and price them out. Today's prices would cost me just over $3000 for something less than a lab quality super computer. I guess it would be a high end gaming computer. I am extremely fortunate that I can afford to buy such a machine, but I'm not totally bonkers. Thus after I gather a list of the best of the best, I then look for ways to cut down costs, which always means a degradation in performance. Then again, do I REALLY need 32 cores in my microprocessor? I have a feeling that the next desktop will come close to $2000. Additionally there are two monitors I have in mind. One is an NEC like the one I'm currently using but with a slightly larger display area. That's about $160. The other, a Samsung, clamps onto the desktop via an adjustable arm that can raise or lower the screen and bring it forward or push it back depending on my needs. There is open air under the monitor for the keyboard which is the big feature I like about this monitor. It was around $1100 the last time I checked. I realize that all this high performance capability won't get me a whole lot more than those $700 systems. So, when I get the new system it will be because I can, not because I need it.

Google is going to release it's next generation clever phone in a few weeks. I'm 85% positive I'll be getting one and upgrading to 5G networking. Toss in another grand for that.

I need some hobbies to keep me busy and out of trouble ...
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Kellemora
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Re: FLoC

Post by Kellemora »

I just watched a video of a guy building a 56 core computer. It used two 28 core CPUs on a huge motherboard.
He was rattling off the prices of some of the CPUs he had sitting there, and they were all downright crazy in price.
When he finished, all he had was the mobo, both CPUs, their coolers, and several 32 gig memory sticks and he said this is what ten grand of parts looks like, hi hi.

I do know some folks who have money to burn on the latest and greatest because they have over 1/4 million dollars a year in excess cash over expenses to just blow if they want, and that is without touching the principal.
Think they would help me afford my medications? Not on your life!
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yogi
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Re: FLoC

Post by yogi »

My heart goes out to you regarding your medical costs because I just paid a highway thievery price for blood thinners which tossed me into the infamous doughnut hole. I can afford the few hundred dollars every three months, but I am already paying several thousand dollars a year for insurance to cover my drug costs. What the hell are they doing with those premiums? Nevermind. I know what they are doing. All I can tell you is that should I be so fortunate as to win that mega millions lottery, you will be on my list of friends who help me find ways to do something constructive with all that cash. Serioiusly, I do empathize with you and your healthcare issues.

A 32 core Intel processor will cost in excess of $3,500 if you can find one. I've seen a 24 core AMD for about $1,200 which is the direction I'd be headed in if I were going to go crazy. Some of the nVidia graphics cards are as expensive as the Intel processor so that those two items alone could be $7,000. I can do that. I just need a good reason for such craziness. LOL As I said before, I probably will compile a BOM for the ideal system and cut it down from there. Hopefully components won't be as difficult to obtain as they are today.
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ocelotl
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Re: FLoC

Post by ocelotl »

The same thought is mine, just have to refrain expressing it since it would be interpreted as "having a mexican dealer"... On upgrading computers or phones, it is more a thing of necessity rather than craving... Heck, I put on hold the memory upgrade for my current 'puter due to this pandemic... Well...
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yogi
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Re: FLoC

Post by yogi »

I read just the other day where somebody was saying it's normal to buy a new computer every 4 years. That probably is when technology changes enough to warrant a new machine, but I buy with the intention of keeping the hardware ten years. At that interval much of the software can no longer be upgraded or what is current cannot be used on the old hardware. The system I am using to write this was made in 2015, but it was the end of life for it then. It was intended to run Windows 8. I have Windows 7 installed and a few things simply cannot be upgraded anymore. It's all usable as is but not suitable for Windows 11, for example.

In some ways the pandemic helped instead of hurt us financially. I am retired and didn't have a job to lose and all our major expenses have been paid off for many years. My fixed income remained the same and was more or less guaranteed. The big advantage for me was the government issued stimulus checks. Between my wife's and my own benefit there was enough extra money in the budget to buy a new (used) car. That is exactly the reason they sent the checks and we were fortunate enough to stay healthy and have some cash left over.
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Kellemora
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Re: FLoC

Post by Kellemora »

I'm still mad that I wasted money buying my frau an off-the-shelf Windows10 computer, she hated but didn't want to tell me.
I saw how frustrated she was and we got a ten year old gaming computer from her son who upgraded with Win7 on it.
Even with Linux Mint on that new computer it is still slow compared to my computer from Yogi.

I guess I was off with my pricing. I called my computer guy to see what he had.
Intel i-4790 with 1 tb SSD, 32 gig DDR3, DVD, WiFi, USB3.0, full-size desktop tower cabinet, plus extras - $450.00
Same computer specs as above but with an Intel i-4770 is $500.00
Said he could use a 550 gig SSD and knock 25 more bucks off of either one.
I reminded him he was telling 650 bucks if I wanted a good one last year.
He said wait about 6 more months and the ones I just quoted will be down to around 350 and 400 bucks.
Since I only run Linux I would be more than happy with them.
I wonder if that means they won't run Windows11?
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yogi
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Re: FLoC

Post by yogi »

Since you mentioned Windows 11 ...

There seems to be two requirements that need to be satisfied in order to run Windows 11. One is that the motherboard must have a Trusted Platform Module (TPM) v2.0 or higher. Apparently you can buy them and add them on, but that won't necessarily make Microsoft support it. That is because the second requirement is for a minimum 7th generation Intel chip (I don't know the equivalent AMD genre but they do qualify as well). Intel is on generation 11 these days, just for reference. All Intel CPU's of gen 8 or higher have that TPM chip baked into the silicon. Some gen 7's do as well. I found a setting in the UEFI firmware of the laptop that enables TPM, and the CPU is an Intel generation 7. Thus I'm on the cusp and may be able to get full Windows 11 support from Microsoft. I still get warnings in my update app that the laptop does not qualify, but I do have all the required components and they ARE giving me copies of Windows 11 to evaluate. I guess I'll find out more about a month from now.

The Intel 4770 and the Intel 4790 are generation 4 chips. They do not qualify for Windows 11. This brings up an interesting point. Windows 10 will be supported until 2025. Between now and then you will still be able to buy computers with Windows 10 preinstalled, but of course the big push will be for Windows 11. The question is how long will it take for the Windows 10 market to dry up given that both will be available. Your dealer probably is assuming that nobody will want Windows 10 computers in about six months.

And, I know we talked about me upgrading and sending you this here machine when I do that. It's still an option as far as I'm concerned. I simply can't give you a time frame for when I'll do the upgrade. So ... if you can get what you need from your friendly computer builder before I can get motivated to upgrade, please feel free to do so. Costs, by the way, would not be an issue.
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Kellemora
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Re: FLoC

Post by Kellemora »

I was basically thinking of the frau and her Windows only games.
It's not likely I will ever be using Windows again for anything. I'm too used to using GNU/Linux now!

I tried using Opera for my Farm Town game, it would attempt to open it, then just kept recycling back to start.
Went to Firefox to see if anything changed since the last time I used it. Nothing has changed, still burns up the CPU and runs as slow as molasses in the dead of winter.
I've been using Firefox to come here this past couple of weeks. But I see no difference here than on Chrome.

Farcebook both on Firefox and Google Chrome has slowed down to a snails pace for some reason the past few days.
They've made a lot of background changes lately, plus some we see up front, all for the worst.
There are a couple of things I've always went to Firefox to do when playing my FT game. But those don't affect the CPU for some reason. FT has a serious memory leak on Google Chrome in a couple of areas, one is their FT Wall page in the game.

It's sad to see Google Chrome with Farcebook open going downhill so bad and so fast. But it could all be Farcebook, just not as bad yet on Firefox, but getting there fast.
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yogi
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Re: FLoC

Post by yogi »

My recommendations for your testing pleasure:
WaterFox Browser: https://www.waterfox.net
CCleaner Browser: https://www.ccleaner.com/ccleaner

I have never installed the CCleaner Browser in a Linux system but they claim it is possible. If it works for Linux as well as it does in Windows then it's worth an evaluation. Just because browsers are what they are you will find them all to be resource intensive when you open multiple tabs. I think Waterfox keeps the loading down more than it's big sister Firefox, but it may still be a problem in your situation. I think it would be worth the effort for you to evaluate both. I know that neither one will be worse than Chrome.

As far as using FireFox for access to this website goes, I can understand how you would not notice a significant difference. The main reason for doing it would be because FireFox does not recognize the alt+X keyboard sequence that closes your session here. You may have other issues, but you won't lose any long posts due to pressing inadvertent key sequences.

There could possibly be a problem if you are thinking of using what I may send you for Windows. Currently the only version of Windows installed on the tower is Windows 7. I have a couple games on it that will not run in Linux plus some other diagnostic goodies. Therefore I would probably keep the drive with Windows on it for the new system. Yes, I may just attempt to dual boot Windows which is something I never did before. I've always kept them on separate hardware. I'm not sure how many extra hard drives I'd have to send your way, but I know it would be two, possibly three. My intention is to install a fully working version of Debian (whatever the latest version is) before I offer sending this system to you. I know it can be done, but I want to prove it first. I suppose if you have some licenses for Windows laying around you can install it on one of the extra drives. But, I have a suspicion that should this transaction actually take place, you may want to give the Frau the Silver Yogi and keep this one for yourself. LOL
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Kellemora
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Re: FLoC

Post by Kellemora »

I've used Waterfox in the past. It was the Linux replacement for Firefox only due to the name is all.
I'm not a purist like some folks, so don't mind having proprietary stuff on my computer.

I'm on Google Chrome today for a change, mainly because I was doing something at glanced at the clock, hi hi.

I won't be running Windows, and I think I installed copy of WindowsXP here on the Silver Yogi.
So if you do get me set up with another computer some day, just putting Debian on it will be fine with me.
And actually I don't have any licenses for anything newer than XP, but I may have a Win8 OEM license on Debi's computer, the new one I bought for her. Don't remember seeing the usual Windows sticker on it though.

I've grown to LOVE this Silver Yogi, hi hi.
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yogi
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Re: FLoC

Post by yogi »

I smile every time you tell me how pleased you are with the Silver Yogi. The tower I replaced it with is a lot neater and seems to be designed for server usage. As far as performance goes, I don't think the Asus mobo here would be noticeably different until you looked into the UEFI firmware. The array of settings is simply amazing especially if you get into overclocking, which I don't think you would. The Silver Yogi has the traditional MBR BIOS but this machine has UEFI with a BIOS overlay if you choose to go that route. I suspect you could get all your Frau's games, plus whatever Windows it takes to run them, loaded on this machine. But, I seriously do not see you doing that. Regardless of what you decide, I'm fairly confident you will feel comfortable with what I have here. All I need to do is some research, and that can take a while. LOL

There are two Linux systems that are performing well in my virtual box environment. The first one is a "lite" version of Ubuntu. I did the minimal install there because I wanted to keep the system under 10 GB of virtual disk space. Ubuntu recommends something over 20 gigs for a full system. I believe the only thing you get with the "lite" install is a few essential drivers and Firefox. I don't like the Ubuntu desktop but I can't complain about its performance.

The real surprise is Peppermint Linux in a virtual machine. They are based on Ubuntu Mate but runs like greased lightning. It has a considerable number of packages not found in the Ubuntu Lite version but it doesn't seem to take up any more virtual disk space than its parent. The speed at which it installs and runs packages is simply incredible. I'd go ahead and put Peppermint on the main tower but being an Ubuntu derivative it identifies as "Ubuntu" in the UEFI boot process. Mint also uses that same identity. And, of course Ubuntu itself uses it. Thus to avoid a conflict of interests, I put Peppermint in a VM and Mint on the hard drive. I would switch the locations of Mint and Peppermint but the former needs more disk space than I'm willing to give it in my virtual machine.

Too many fricken unnecessary problems ... which is why I prefer Windows.
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Kellemora
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Re: FLoC

Post by Kellemora »

Hmm, try installing four different versions of Windows on the same machine and each one want's to be God!
I'm sure you've probably figured a way to do it, since you like to use many unconventional methods of doing things.

I found it much easier to install many different Linux Distro's on the same machine, and they all work just fine, as long as you let Windows still be God, hi hi.

You should hear the gaming crowd brag about their fancy overpriced computers.
They are so busy bragging, I wonder when they find time to play the game, hi hi.

Although I don't have the GPU in it, the Silver Yogi still is tops of all the computers I've ever owned.
Runs like a scared jackrabbit keeping ahead of the buckshot, hi hi.
I am more than pleased with the Silver Yogi!
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Kellemora
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Re: FLoC

Post by Kellemora »

Hmm, try installing four different versions of Windows on the same machine and each one want's to be God!
I'm sure you've probably figured a way to do it, since you like to use many unconventional methods of doing things.

I found it much easier to install many different Linux Distro's on the same machine, and they all work just fine, as long as you let Windows still be God, hi hi.

You should hear the gaming crowd brag about their fancy overpriced computers.
They are so busy bragging, I wonder when they find time to play the game, hi hi.

Although I don't have the GPU in it, the Silver Yogi still is tops of all the computers I've ever owned.
Runs like a scared jackrabbit keeping ahead of the buckshot, hi hi.
I am more than pleased with the Silver Yogi!
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yogi
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Re: FLoC

Post by yogi »

I am not too sure what you mean by allowing Windows to be God. When Windows is running it does not interact with any other OS installed on the same hardware, even if that OS happens to be another version of Windows. It's all isolated. The truth is that in some instances Linux is more invasive in the sense that some versions want to mount every file system it can find in the same box, and that includes Windows. The way around that is to encrypt the Windows drive. LOL

Perhaps you are referring to the boot process wherein the last OS installed takes control of the boot process. That's not absolutely correct for MBR installations but it sure as all holy hell is true in UEFI. I have lost more than a few Windows installs because the Linux OS I was trying to install along side it destroyed the Windows bootloader. Though luck for you if you didn't realize that was standard procedure when installing a new operating system - Linux or Windows. It was due to that very quirk that I learned how to use virtual machines to prevent Linux from mucking up the existing boot process. And, it is also due to Grub's inconsistency and it's intrinsic competition with the Windows bootloader that I did away with the conventional boot process on this tower. I now have an independent boot manager called rEFInd. It doesn't care about any disagreements that Linux and Windows have among themselves, rEFInd just lists all the possible places to boot from and lets you pick one. Kind of like the old BIOS did, but better.

Because I have multiple operating systems installed on this tower, I have had occasion to go into the UEFI firmware and set priorities. This is not an unusual setting to find in BIOS or UEFI and for me it has saved many a potential loss of installed operating systems. I can select the order in which devices are loaded, which includes boot loaders. That means by adjusting the UEFI settings I can determine which loader takes control of the boot process. I have a choice between rEFInd, Windows bootloader, and the multiple versions of Grub that each Linux OS decides to install all on it's own. You could say I'm doing some unconventional things, but only if you choose to run a single operating system on a single computer. Most people use computers that way. I am a bit more adventurous.
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Kellemora
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Re: FLoC

Post by Kellemora »

We've always had to load Windows FIRST if you wanted it to work, and then install the Linux Distro.
If you tried to install Windows last, that's all you had was Windows and nothing else, because Windows thinks it God!

Sure, today there are now workaround for that problem, but most folks can't figure out how to do it, since many don't even know how to install Windows, much less a Linux Distro.

Every version of GRUB to present installs the last installed OS as the primary boot OS, and when Grub comes up, it shows you all installed OSs including those on other hard drives.

I think you are always trying to do things a normal human never even thinks of trying, hi hi.
But you learn by doing that and overcome obstacles, solve problems, and in the end get what you want.
The rest of us, we just load Windows first and then another OS that uses Grub.
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yogi
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Re: FLoC

Post by yogi »

For the most part I think you are correct. I do things here in the Command and Control Center which the average computer user has no need nor desire to do. However, all the things I have done with multiple operating systems are designed into the systems. I have not tried to do something new, unusual, or beyond the design of the software. In the final analysis there is no need for me to run computers with multiple operating systems installed. Nor do I have a compelling reason to use Linux on a Stick or virtual machines. I do all those things precisely because I have nothing better to do with my time and my brain could use the exercise.

And, to address your Windows is God observation, again. The last OS to be installed is the one that manages the boot process. The rule has never changed. That means when Windows is the last OS installed its bootloader decides what operating systems are recognized and allowed to boot. Being Windows, it only looks for Windows options that are stored in its Boot Configuration Database (BCD). Linux does exactly the same thing. It installs it's own boot manager, Grub, which replaces anything Windows might have in place previously. Linux did not, does not, and most likely will not boot any version of Windows directly. This is particularly true for secure booting and UEFI in general. What you see in the Grub menu is the Windows boot loader to which Grub passes temporary control. Next time you boot it's back to Grub again because, well, as you say, Linux thinks it's God when it is the last OS installed.

If all that negotiation of the boot process sounds complicated and confusing, I can't blame you for thinking so. That is why I have installed rEFInd as the primary boot loader manager. Windows AND Linux be damned. I don't need either one of their bootloaders. Then again, my argument is moot if you only boot into one operating system.
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Kellemora
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Re: FLoC

Post by Kellemora »

I've done a lot of crazy things with computers over the years, but most of those were out of necessity, to help me get my work done faster. My original groundwork is what led the president of the company to install larger computers with more features.
Using the old Apple II to monitor greenhouse temperatures is what he was most interested in, not so much handling our inventory, hi hi. That all came later when he wanted nearly everything tracked by computers, hi hi.

All I remember from days of yore, is if you wanted to keep Windows on your computer, you HAD TO Install it First, because being GOD it would not recognize any other operating system.
And yes, the last Linux OS you installed was what came up first in Grub. We called it come-uppance, hi hi. But you could select which OS you wanted on the top of the list so it booted to that one automatically.

I more or less lost control of Grub when they came out with Grub2. In my opinion, they only made something simple more complicated than need be, hi hi.
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