FLoC

Ask questions and give answers about computers, mobile devices, game boxes, PC security and all manner of geeky stuff.
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Kellemora
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Re: FLoC

Post by Kellemora »

If I can remember to do so tomorrow, I'll try using Firefox when coming here, just to see if there is a difference.
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yogi
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Re: FLoC

Post by yogi »

Try the ctrl-X key sequence in FireFox and then try it in Google. You will see what I'm talking about. It surprised me. I figured at least at the basic function level all browsers were created equal. Apparently not.
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Kellemora
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Re: FLoC

Post by Kellemora »

It was Alt X that sent me back to the log-in page, but I'll give it a try on here after I send it.
I'm on Firefox right now!
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Kellemora
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Re: FLoC

Post by Kellemora »

qwerty

OK, neither Ctrl X nor Alt X knocked me out, hi hi.
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yogi
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Re: FLoC

Post by yogi »

I don't know why there would be different control characters among browsers, but obviously there are. I'd recommend using FireFox to visit this board, just to be on the safe side.
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Kellemora
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Re: FLoC

Post by Kellemora »

Hmm, I was on another website while on Google Chrome and tried the Alt-X and it didn't send me back to their log-in page.
Maybe it wasn't Alt-X that did it after all?
I've had stranger things happen this year with web browsers.
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yogi
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Re: FLoC

Post by yogi »

When I press alt+X in GOOGLE CHROME browser, it logs me out of this website.
When I press alt+X in MOZILLA FIREFOX browser, it does nothing.
From that simple experiment I concluded alt+X is an issue only found in the Google Chrome series of browsers. Several browsers use the Google engine, Microsoft's Edge for example, and they all do what Google does.

So, I got curious and tried to find an explanation for using alt+X in Google Chrome:
https://support.google.com/chromebook/a ... 3101?hl=en
https://www.businessinsider.com/chrome- ... -shortcuts

I stopped looking after trying to find alt+X documented either in Google's own library or some third party's library. It may be out there somewhere, but the alt+X shortcut is not documented as far as I can tell. I did note that some of the shortcuts are keyboard dependent. You and I are using different keyboards but seem to be getting identical results.

It's Google. What else can I say?
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Kellemora
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Re: FLoC

Post by Kellemora »

That's an interesting list of commands on both websites.
I did find the Alt f then x to close the browser.
That might explain why I couldn't duplicate some things that knocked me out.
I never thought of a double key sequence like that for Alt.

I did find this, but it doesn't work that way on this website.
Alt+X is a keyboard shortcut most often used to display the Unicode character code of a character.
In a document, it works as it is supposed to, IF you highlight the letter, character, or symbol first.
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yogi
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Re: FLoC

Post by yogi »

I too found that alt+X for text documents explained. The catch is that it only works inside text documents. The missing documentation is just part of the larger problem that I've been victim to over the years I've been a geek. There does not seem to be a single source for explaining all the functions and shortcuts that any given computer device might contain. There are user manuals and quick start guides, but they barely touch on what actually can be done. Linux, to its credit, does have man pages which closely approximates what I have been looking for in non-Linux systems. But, as you have pointed out a few times, those man pages are only useful if you understand the secret code used to compile them. I was fortunate and did learn that code in my old job at Motorola. I can see how a novice to Linux would be completely baffled. And YOU are not a novice, which just goes to show how useful those pages really are.
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Kellemora
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Re: FLoC

Post by Kellemora »

I forget now what it was I was trying to do, and although I followed the instructions perfectly, it never worked for me.
I still have that problem with a lot of things I'm trying to do. But thankfully I can look up most of them, and every once in a while someone explains the tricks to get something to work. I have this problem most often working with text boxes and frames.
Trying to add text in a new text box simply keeps selecting the frame for the text box.
And then, once you get letters inside the text box, you find clicking on them doesn't highlight the frame anymore.
Unless one does something every single day, by the end of the week they forget how to do it again, hi hi.
I've never understood the Man Pages ever. Especially when one is trying to use a Bash command for something.
I find I can understand the tutorials out there much better, and they make more sense too.
A man page is more like a reference to jog your memory on which codes work with which codes. Like Cliff notes in a way.
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yogi
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Re: FLoC

Post by yogi »

Our learning processes are different. If a text book explanation is thorough and well written all my questions are answered there. Tutorials work well too if you have the patience to wade through them. That is what I like about the Linux man pages. Everything I want to know is there on a single page. Be it man pages or tutorials they are both lacking in practical examples. I can look through the list of Linux commands and understand the way they work, but seldom have any idea why I'd want to do that. LOL Linux is made for server maintenance, and I suppose when you are a system administrator (and I was at one time) there are a lot of obscure operations and tasks that need to be performed. The average computer user has no need for doing anything esoteric so that whatever plethora of commands are available in Linux are mostly useless. Then when the average person does by chance need to do something technical, the man pages tell you very little about how to go about it. They are excellent at describing the options, but poor at relating why.

Windows 10/11 has a terminal app now, not just the command line. Most of the Linux commands for navigating directories work in the Windows terminal too. Then there is their Power Shell which is a lot like Bash. Being Windows, of course, they don't follow any of the standard protocols nor are any of the commands recognizable. I think this came about because Microsoft has become more amenable to open source software these days. While some folks think that's a great idea, the fact that they are now letting people into the guts of the OS is ominous. I have a feeling that one day in the not too distant future Windows will be looking a lot like Linux and the need for using the terminal or Power Shell will increase.

Might be time to look into Macs.
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Kellemora
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Re: FLoC

Post by Kellemora »

I think the Man Pages were written for someone who has a Doctorate in Computer Science, hi hi.
I've found several very useful tutorials that actually could teach me how to do something, and how to go about doing it too.
There have been a few I've used that showed me three or four different ways to accomplish the same thing, and when to use each one for a particular project.

I know I mentioned a few times how I was studying on how to do something on-line using their training areas.
Everything I wrote worked perfectly in their training boxes, but would never work on my own computer.
They forgot to tell us one important thing. It only runs on a server hi hi!

I think msWindows is going to be switching to the Linux Kernel, or knowing them, they will probably rewrite the Kernel, then claim it is a Linux Kernel, but most Linux things won't work because they butchered the kernel. Just like they did with XML and called it DOCX.

Seems to me, Windows is grasping straws trying to stay afloat.
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yogi
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Re: FLoC

Post by yogi »

When I run into problems either with Linux or Windows I frequently end up in some support forum. Those forums can be helpful, but rarely to they have answers to the direct questions posted. Everybody who replies to a question is a self-proclaimed expert and can't understand why it doesn't work on YOUR system when it works so well on theirs. When I was investigating how EFI works in Linux I ran into what I thought was the perfect solution for the problem I was having at the time. Like your experiences, however, the examples in the tutorial didn't work on MY computer. I later discovered that the perfect answer was perfect for BFS file systems but not ext file systems. Who the hell uses BFS anyway? Some nerds, I'm sure, but not the general population of computer users.

Specific answers to specific questions are very difficult to come up with in general documentation or in help forums. There are a zillion factors that seem innocuous but have a critical impact on the solution to many problems. The way the man pages of Linux are constructed is very good in a general sense. All the information is there and well documented. Most people asking for help know what needs to be done but they don't know how to do it. The man pages tell you how to do it, but they don't tell you when you will need it. LOL If you found some useful tutorials, don't lose them. They are invaluable.

Microsoft and Linus Torvalds have been talking things over. Or, that is what some blogs I've read say. There is a definite interest in replacing the current Windows kernel and it would be quite understandable if Microsoft comes up with their own version. It will be done not because Linux is superior in any way, but the Windows kernel is about as old as you, which is still young but not so much for an OS kernel. It's time to do away with the old and make room for the new. That is what Microsoft is looking into, and I think it's great that they are seeking help from the experts. Apple did it, and Google did it too. Why not Microsoft?
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Kellemora
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Re: FLoC

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One would think ms would consider using a BSD like kernel which is more like the Unix kernel than the Linux kernel.
Might be due to proprietary reasons they are looking to ones they can butcher up themselves, hi hi.

I've looked at the Man Pages many times, after I knew what to do, to see what the other key options were. They still messed me up because apparently they can only be used in certain ways, and often only if your program is set up to recognize those options when you use them.

W3C Tutorials and others like them, take you step by step, and from the beginning if need be.
It took me forever to figure out the perfect header codes for my web pages. Sometimes a single line at the beginning can make how the web page functions entirely different than expected.
And what killed me was some humongous companies with thousands of web pages were still using the old Transitional HTML.
Seems they would have been the ones more up to date on new pages they were creating.
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yogi
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Re: FLoC

Post by yogi »

There are good reasons for using transitional HTML. It would be the same reason why Micorsoft is backward compatible with just about everything all the way to Windows XP. When you are big and powerful, and have a huge following, you don't want to cut off a large chunk of your customers just to be modern. Sadly, I must report that it is at that very point where Windows and I are having a standoff. The newest iteration of Windows is version 11 and neither of my computers' hardware meet the minimum requirements to run it. The upgrade is being done mostly for security purposes, but no doubt there is some marketing motivation as well. In any case, you know that I am part of the Windows Insider team doing beta testing of their latest brainchild. Now with the advent of Windows 11, the Windows 10 I was running fell out of the beta program. All beta testing is now on the newest version, which supposedly my hardware does not support. However, the Windows Update App has indeed been giving me the Windows 11 OS for evaluation. This confused the daylights out of me at first, but then I read where it's only a temporary thing. Sure enough I am now getting notices from Microsoft telling me my hardware is not compatible with Windows 11 and come next month, October, when they will release Windows 11 to the general public, I will have only two choices. Number One I can upgrade my equipment and things will continue as they are going right now. Number Two I will have to do a clean install of Windows 10 and be kicked out of the beta testing program.
:thundermad:

In "some cases" people with hardware that almost makes specs, Microsoft in all its goodness will allow them to download and use Windows 11 for free (but not beta test it). Those marginal systems will not be supported and may miss out on significant security updates. At this point in time I don't know if my laptop is one of those marginal cases but I am only one generation behind the minimum CPU requirements. Still, even if they bless me with their generosity, I will not get the support everyone else gets until I upgrade the hardware.

Yes, I am a bit pissed. On the other hand being true to my basic understanding of the need to move on, I know why they are doing this. It's a lot like changing the kernel. The world outside of Microsoft is evolving daily and they too must make changes and demands from their customers in order to keep up with the current technology or security threats. I will bite the bullet some day, and upgrading my computers is in the plan. Whether I move up with Windows or not is still undecided.
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Kellemora
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Re: FLoC

Post by Kellemora »

Ya think may ms has lots of stock in different computer manufacturers?
Why would they come out with an OS that doesn't run on the majority of the nations computers?
It may end up being their downfall as millions if not billions move over to GNU/Linux to avoid having to buy an overpriced new computer system.

It's akin to the big three automakers suddenly coming out with only hydrogen powered cars, when there is no places established to fill them up. A few places will scramble to make hydrogen based refill stations, but most will just ignore it for a few years.
Our electrical infrastructure cannot carry the summer loads in most areas as it is, and when everybody tries plugging in there electric cars when the get home from work during the peak electrical usage time, I can see the grid going down, hi hi.

You know, many folks see Windows computers as the worlds fastest virus and malware detection system, hi hi.
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yogi
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Re: FLoC

Post by yogi »

I've been chatting with you long enough to fully understand your opinions about Windows and Linux OS's. You make some good points from time to time, but Windows is the dominant OS for people who don't live inside a server center. It will be around when those hydrogen powered automobiles take over too.

One of the false assumptions I think you might be making is that Microsoft is somehow in control of and creating markets for their products. If you follow the company's history you will see it to be quite the opposite. In fact they almost went under when Gates left the company because they were not prepared for the mobile device world that sprung up when they weren't looking. I doubt that Microsoft forced that to happen or planned on it being that way. Technology is evolving and Microsoft has the talent to keep pace with it. That's what they are doing with Windows 11. That's all fine and dandy because every other software/computer company in the world is doing exactly the same thing. I've not checked their balance sheet lately but I would guess that the bulk of Microsoft's revenue no longer comes from desktop software. There has been a resurgence lately, but when this pandemic passes the expansion of the desktop/laptop business will cease. These days Microsoft is rooting it's business in the cloud, where people like Amazon and Google are doing well. I certainly feel that I'm being abandoned by a long time friend, but is it fair to ask them to not move forward because I can't see upgrading my hardware at the moment? I have GNU/Linux on all my computers and on a bunch of memory sticks and in a few virtual machines too. It's not like I haven't looked into the matter. I may keep Windows 7 going longer than I originally wanted to do, and that would be because all those GNU/Linux machines I have have not worked well enough to make me want to change. Then, too, I'm not tossing out Linux entirely. You never know when the need could arise. :mrgreen:
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Kellemora
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Re: FLoC

Post by Kellemora »

I've not needed to use Windows anything since they came out with Vista, the time I made a full switch to GNU/Linux.
I did keep one XP machine around, but alas, it has finally died also.

I've already seen tons of comments about desktop computers up through the current generation will be available for pennies on the dollar, simply because ms has such a large stronghold on the desktop market, mainly in business and home computing.

One of the ideas behind cloud computing was with everything on-line, the computers would not need to be so robust, nor have much memory, so cell phones would be able to work also without problems.

There are not really all that many people who can just dump their 2 grand computers and run out and buy 4 grand computers in order to use msWindows11. And most of us older folks are on 300 to 600 dollar computers as it is, but then too, many have 1000 dollar cell phones, but they didn't pay that much for them, I'm sure.

My wife only uses her Windows computer to do her web-mail, and play Big Fish Games.
I was going to try and get Big Fish Games to work on PlayOnLinux, many say it works just fine, but I've not figured out how to do it yet on our newest computer I bought for her. Maybe some day when the need arises I will try to figure it out.
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yogi
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Re: FLoC

Post by yogi »

I understand perfectly your need to use Linux. Your reasons are legitimate and well suited for what you do with computers. There have been moments in the past where I seriously considered abandoning MS Windows altogether. I did not do so because a few, very few, games to which I am addicted do not have a Linux version. Add all the flaws I discovered with Linux in general and you see this old guy sticking with Microsoft's cash cow. That is to say it WAS their cash cow. They now have a new farm out there in the cloud.

The upgrade in hardware demanded by Windows 11 is actually pretty simple. It's a module built into Intel CPU's after a certain generation level. Prior to that time the module was external and could be added on if your motherboard had that capability. But, of course, most if not all people doing the migration will not simply swap out their CPU. They will in fact buy a new computer, which can be had for under $1000 so that I don't know how you came up with that $4000 figure. I will confess to you here and now that my next computer will come close to that $4k price, but it will not be only to run Micorsoft's latest brainchild. Heck, the monitor I have in mind all by itself lists for over $1000. LOL

You bring up a good point about cloud computing. It does allow for desktops to be cheaper due to the lower memory requirements. But that is not the main use for cloud computing. It's popular among enterprises because it allows for seamless collaboration. The work environment is all in one place for everybody. Vintage desktop computers are pretty much worthless, but there is a market for used computers that won't just dry up because technology moves on. I can't say the same for smartphones or tablets. When their owners abandon them, they are pretty much fodder for the recycle bin. Cloud computing is a business onto itself, and the cloud does not stop there. Many corporations use cloud storage as business critical backup. That's where they tell you to put your files to protect yourself against ransomware, for example. Be that all as it may, it's pretty hard to predict the fate of desktop computers. News of their demise has been grossly exaggerated, especially now that people know how much fun it is working from home during a pandemic. A lot of those folks are refusing to go back to the office. They are working from the cloud, no doubt.
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Kellemora
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Re: FLoC

Post by Kellemora »

I can tell you this, ms365 is more than I can afford! The lowest price is around 20 bucks a month per user. And if you add any of the add-on packages like Office365, the price doubles!

As you know, most of the computers I bought since moving down south here capped out at around 350 bucks loaded.
They started out around 250 bucks and went up another 25 bucks each time I bought a new one.

The last estimates I got about 2 years ago now, were a minimum price of 650 bucks, and more like 750 bucks to 1000 bucks for what I use them for. If I needed one for gaming, well then the price skyrocketed to around 3 grand.

I have some free cloud storage, that I used when I was working with a writing group so we could exchange edits.
By promoting them a few times, they added more memory for me, but I still rarely use it.
Unless I put all the info in my Wills on how to access on-line storage places, it would all be lost anyhow.

I'll stick with my External Hard Drives formatted for Windows users, so nearly everyone could access what is on that drive when I croak.
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