ancient history

[pilvikki]

26000 years? that's taking things back a bit:

Gunung Padang

say, why are these ancient buildings on different continents pyramids?

[Icey]

Fascinating!

There're pyramids all over the world, but little remains of them except for some stonework or the ones which were constructed out of earth. This's why the pyramids of Giza're so revered because of the hieroglyphs and treasures which were found within them. A fairly new one's been found near Mexico City I believe, and that, too has wall paintings within its chambers.

It's natural to be curious about these wonderful ancient sites, but in some ways, the Indonesians're right to be outraged at archaeological digs.

[yogi]

The story goes that there once was a civilization of people probably way more advanced than us. It's the place on which the mythology of gods and goddesses is based. These folks think that civilization was wiped out some 25,000 years ago which is why the Aztec calendar coming to an end after 25,000 years caused a ruckus not too long ago. Hopefully the government in Indonesia is enlightened enough to allow further investigation.

[Icey]

So much of this's guesswork though Yogi. Even carbon dating can be inaccurate, but if a theory fits in with what archaelogists and scientists feel happy with, then their accounts're assumed correct and left like that until someone "proves" otherwise.

The beauty of this ancient history is that we DON'T exactly know or understand it, and anything which intrigues, draws assumptions to be made and the natural curiosity to try and find out more about it.

It WOULD be interesting to see what lies below and if this gives a clearer indication of what the structures were used for, but at the same time, I can understand it seeming like sacrilege to the Indonesians.

[pilvikki]

it's a bit of a poser though. like that skeleton I saw in the british museum: a girl of about 18 when she died, in a glass case. how's that not disrespectful if one is to go thataway? yet, on the other hand - it's not like she knows one way or another.

[Icey]

Precisely.

I personally think that the well-preserved Ice Mummies which've been discovered, shouldn't be used for exhibition - merely because these were once real, living people. To have them open to scrutiny by scientists might be a different matter, but surely photos and realistic dummies could be provided for the public, and then allow these mummies to be interred or put in a place of dignity?

[Kellemora]

Actually Icey, a little known fact, is many of the exhibits open to the public for viewing, are immaculate replicas.
I learned this when my sister landed a job at a popular large museum.
Even the display case was made to emulate a real preservation unit, when in fact, it was simply just a plain case, and the control panel display was for show, to enhance the effect.
This surprised me with all the hoopla about that particular exhibit.

[Icey]

Thanks for that Gary. I half suspected it really, but saw a documentary about one particularly well- preserved Ice Mummy which can only be exhibited for short periods before it'd start to decay rapidly. It's then put back into storage, under a temperature which helps to keep it in as good condition as possible.

These things interest me enormously, BUT, as with mummified bodies taken from Egyptian burial sites, I think there's a sadness attached to it. These people once lived and breathed the same as you or I. What right do we have to treat these mummies with so much disrespect? All they're displayed for, is so that folk can gawp at the remains of what once was. OK., so these people're dead and I don't suppose they could give a hoot about what happens to them after life's ebbed away, but you might as well say that it'd be OK to skin them then and turn the "hide" into usable items, or scalp them and use their hair for wigs? I don't think so at all. It just seems wrong.

[Kellemora]

Think about this for a moment Icey. If the possibility of losing an artifact by placing it on display is that risky. Do you think they are actually putting the real thing on display, even for only fifteen minutes then putting it back?
I'll bet they go through all the theatrics to help add to the illusion of seeing the real thing, when the viewers are probably only seeing a replica.
I do agree with you regarding the desecration of graves. But on the other hand, is it really? Some cultures placed their dead on top of structures and burned the structures. Some cremains are spread to the wind, or tossed in waterways. Others are dumped in the ocean for the fish to eat. These are ancient remains of a people long forgotten to antiquity. Their body was moved and preserved, which is a better fate than the rest who so totally decomposed there is nothing but dust left.
I do believe it is OK to use body parts to help save the life of others, whether it be a kidney or their scalp.
I'm slated as an organ donor since I turned 22! Don't know if I have any usable parts now though.

[pilvikki]

Don't know if I have any usable parts now though.

I think mine might be as a deterrent...

going down the list of things that are kosher, or not, what about graves of murdered people? like these scythians:

he sure needed a lot of company...

.

[Icey]

Yes Gary, I appreciate your take on this, and you're right of course. It's just me, I suppose. I can see the scientific purpose of opening mummies up and being interested in how people were preserved, etc., but I also have respect for the deceased and somehow think they should be left alone.

The Ice Mummies in storage which I mentioned ARE the real McCoy though Gary. I saw them featured on a documentary, when a British archaeologist and his science partner obtained permission to be allowed to inspect and photo them. These "exhibits" only come out at certain times - as in the case mentioned, or if medics request a very small sample of tissue for analysis and so on. They aren't generally put on show for the public, although other specimens ARE shown, and so I don't know if those ones're real or not.

LOL @ Vikki!!! * I think mine might be as a deterrent ...

ROFL!

Well I don't want to part with my organs. I came into the world with them, and want to take them with me when I go! I'd donate a kidney or whatever if one of my children needed it, but apart from that, nope, what's mine's mine. : )

That link was interesting. I'd never seen those pics before. Fabulous artefacts.

[pilvikki]

meh, not as if i'll be using them.. if someone finds any use for mine, you're welcome, but NOT for schooling purposes!

[Icey]

After reading yesterday about the 14 year old girl who the doctors thought'd died, and who were about to take her organs .... no way. She's now recovering and could hopefully live for another 80 years or more! If they'd gone ahead .........

[Kellemora]

I noticed one of the designs looked like the space aliens we often use in images today.

[Icey]

These things sure make you wonder, don't they?

[ocelotl]

Fascinating!

There're pyramids all over the world, but little remains of them except for some stonework or the ones which were constructed out of earth. This's why the pyramids of Giza're so revered because of the hieroglyphs and treasures which were found within them. A fairly new one's been found near Mexico City I believe, and that, too has wall paintings within its chambers.

It's natural to be curious about these wonderful ancient sites, but in some ways, the Indonesians're right to be outraged at archaeological digs.

I think you are refering to the chamber findings at Teotihuacán. This has been speculated for long, but only at his time it has been uncovered.

Within Mexico City alone, we have the remains of the Great Temples of Tenochtitlan, there's a recovered temple at the middle of the "Pino Suárez" subway station, there is the Tlatelolco three cultures square, Moctezuma pool in Chapultepec, the pyramid at Mixcoac, a basament in the "Cerro de la Estrella", the lake splitting wall in Ecatepec, just from the tip of the tongue and only Aztec ones. Apart of that there are older remains, Toltecan pyramids in Santa Cecilia Acatitla and Tenayuca, within five kilometers from home, are two centuries older than Aztec ones, the pyramids of "El Conde" and Tlatilco in Naucalpan are three to five centuries older than Aztec ones, Teotihuacan in the northeast corner of the lake bowl is contemporary with the Roman Coliseum, and there is Cuicuilco, in Tlalpan that is contemporary with Giza...

[Icey]

Thank you for that! I'm very interested in the old civilisations - the Aztecs, Inca, Maya, etc. Unfortunately, I think some splendid ruins might've got buried beneath what we call "progress", but there could be plenty more to find eventually.

I was almost born in Peru, but my father turned down the job at the last minute. I wish the family'd gone. I'd have felt right at home amongst some of those glorious relics and artefacts which've been unearthed. I still don't like the idea of opening up tombs though, and especially if mummified bodies're found and put on public display. Those were once living people, and I think it's sad to see them exhibited like that.

[pilvikki]

look at it this way: what is the difference of looking at a cadaver of someone who died last week, just wasn't 'treated' in any way. a dead body is still a dead body, yet nobody would be running off to the fresh one. still, the old ones seem fair game.

strange double standard.

[Icey]

The old mummified bodies're naturally interesting to scientists, because of the ways of preservation used and the depicted offerings carved or painted onto the sarcophagus. Visitors're also fascinated by the remains of these corpses, which come from various countries, but if my g-grandmother was amongst those on display, I'd be a tad unhappy. It somehow seems lacking in respect for these once-living human beings. Maybe a silly way of looking at it, but still .....