People just can't be at peace with each other can they?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36267052
So it starts again .....
Re: So it starts again .....
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Icey
Re: So it starts again .....
It IS theirs really isn't it, but the problem goes back over 200 years. In the 90's the Good Friday agreement was drawn up, whereby the vote of whether to keep northern Ireland part of the UK would be left up to the people themselves. Surprisingly, only 17% wanted to break away, and there were fears that the mainly protestant north would be alone amongst the mainly Catholic south if the division wasn't there.
I find it ridiculous that religion still features so strongly, but like everywhere else in the world, it matters to many people.
We have a mixture of catholic and protestant people in our family, and it's never really caused any trouble even within mixed marriages. Someone'd always given way and taken on the religion of their spouse - with no batter of eyelids from the opposite side. It's just accepted in our family that love comes first, although it's been a bit more difficult for the catholics to give way. Excommunication doesn't bar these people from their church, but it's hoped that they'll return, and there're certain practices which they aren't allowed to do any more. We've just taken it that once permission was granted for a catholic to marry a protestant, that the resulting children'd be brought up as catholics, but then there are folk like myself who didn't want my children to be labelled, so neither of them've been christened into any religion. It'll be entirely up to them if they wish to follow a particular course.
The"new" IRA still lives in the past. I understand their point though. They originally wanted to end British rule in NI, and in 2005 they said that the war with the Brits was over, but feelings die hard, and then when the Irish were given the choice of unification or remaining separist, the majority voted to keep NI apart from the south!
Like other paramilitary or terrorist organisations, they seem to forget that ordinary British people shouldn't be the ones who're targeted. These groups seem to think that folk'll rise up and demand that the government protects them or they should give in to demands - but they won't, so it'd be a wasted effort. The arguments should be with the people who make the decisions - those at the top - not Joe Bloggs who just wants a peaceful life.
I find it ridiculous that religion still features so strongly, but like everywhere else in the world, it matters to many people.
We have a mixture of catholic and protestant people in our family, and it's never really caused any trouble even within mixed marriages. Someone'd always given way and taken on the religion of their spouse - with no batter of eyelids from the opposite side. It's just accepted in our family that love comes first, although it's been a bit more difficult for the catholics to give way. Excommunication doesn't bar these people from their church, but it's hoped that they'll return, and there're certain practices which they aren't allowed to do any more. We've just taken it that once permission was granted for a catholic to marry a protestant, that the resulting children'd be brought up as catholics, but then there are folk like myself who didn't want my children to be labelled, so neither of them've been christened into any religion. It'll be entirely up to them if they wish to follow a particular course.
The"new" IRA still lives in the past. I understand their point though. They originally wanted to end British rule in NI, and in 2005 they said that the war with the Brits was over, but feelings die hard, and then when the Irish were given the choice of unification or remaining separist, the majority voted to keep NI apart from the south!
Like other paramilitary or terrorist organisations, they seem to forget that ordinary British people shouldn't be the ones who're targeted. These groups seem to think that folk'll rise up and demand that the government protects them or they should give in to demands - but they won't, so it'd be a wasted effort. The arguments should be with the people who make the decisions - those at the top - not Joe Bloggs who just wants a peaceful life.
Re: So it starts again .....
This entire conflict, which apparently has been going on for centuries, comes across to me (a Yank, mind you) as a contradiction. As you certainly must know June 23 will be a big day in the UK where a referendum vote will be taken to determine if the UK should retain it's membership in the European Union, or not. The bulk of the news I've been getting suggests an opt-out will result. Then I see those same Brits refusing to give up their stronghold over Ireland. I'm probably missing something here, but it looks like a double standard.
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Icey
Re: So it starts again .....
I don't know what you mean about Brits'll refuse to give up their stronghold over Ireland, Yogi? The choice was theirs, and the people in the north decided to stay with us, as it's been economically more advantageous for them. If I'd been over there, I'd have probably voted to separate from mainland UK, but the majority of folk wanted to stick with us, and're happy to've done so.
It's difficult to determine whether we'll opt out of the EU or not. It'll be a fairly close thing I think, but what's put so many people off sticking with it, is that David Cameron keeps contradicting himself and didn't manage to get the deal he wanted for us. He's seen as toadying up to Brussels and various European leaders instead of striking an even balance. In fact, this's almost impossible to do, but rather than tell the truth, he's painted the deal he walked away with as being much better than it really is - and everyone knows it! He's been treating the British public like idiots.
Coming out of Europe won't stop trade deals, but it WOULD give us a say on how to run our own country, without having to bend to ridiculous rules. If we stay in, even more laws'll be applied, which'll erode everything about us which's British. Is that a bad thing, you may ask? Yes. Would the US like to be dictated to by a bunch of foreigners who don't understand how you live and all that you stand for? Of course not, and it's the same for us.
Being part of the EU hasn't been fair on us. We pay far more than Germany and France, for example, for petrol, diesel, food and on energy bills. If we're all supposed to be treated equally, it certainly hasn't reached us here.
We contribute around £35m a day to the EU budget. Some countries pay more, but we pay in 4 times more than anything we get back out of it. Is that right? I don't think so. Neither do a lot of other people. That sort of money could be invested in home-grown businesses again, and sort out a myriad of problems which successive governments've made a hash of. At the end of the day, we're trying to not only think of what'll be best for the country as a whole, but what's going to be best for those of us who live here and've had to put up with very depressing things because of money wasted through mis-management.
As someone pointed out the other day:
"We have the 5th strongest economy in the world and have been thriving and growing while the EU is withering on the vine. They only let us join in 1973 because De Gaulle needed our money to bribe/subsidise French farmers and the reason they desperately want us to stay is they still need our money. Don't threaten us Dave!"
It's difficult to determine whether we'll opt out of the EU or not. It'll be a fairly close thing I think, but what's put so many people off sticking with it, is that David Cameron keeps contradicting himself and didn't manage to get the deal he wanted for us. He's seen as toadying up to Brussels and various European leaders instead of striking an even balance. In fact, this's almost impossible to do, but rather than tell the truth, he's painted the deal he walked away with as being much better than it really is - and everyone knows it! He's been treating the British public like idiots.
Coming out of Europe won't stop trade deals, but it WOULD give us a say on how to run our own country, without having to bend to ridiculous rules. If we stay in, even more laws'll be applied, which'll erode everything about us which's British. Is that a bad thing, you may ask? Yes. Would the US like to be dictated to by a bunch of foreigners who don't understand how you live and all that you stand for? Of course not, and it's the same for us.
Being part of the EU hasn't been fair on us. We pay far more than Germany and France, for example, for petrol, diesel, food and on energy bills. If we're all supposed to be treated equally, it certainly hasn't reached us here.
We contribute around £35m a day to the EU budget. Some countries pay more, but we pay in 4 times more than anything we get back out of it. Is that right? I don't think so. Neither do a lot of other people. That sort of money could be invested in home-grown businesses again, and sort out a myriad of problems which successive governments've made a hash of. At the end of the day, we're trying to not only think of what'll be best for the country as a whole, but what's going to be best for those of us who live here and've had to put up with very depressing things because of money wasted through mis-management.
As someone pointed out the other day:
"We have the 5th strongest economy in the world and have been thriving and growing while the EU is withering on the vine. They only let us join in 1973 because De Gaulle needed our money to bribe/subsidise French farmers and the reason they desperately want us to stay is they still need our money. Don't threaten us Dave!"
Re: So it starts again .....
Your MI5 service has elevated the security alert level a notch due to recent IRA activity which appears to be more aggressive than it has been for many years. While all of the UK is at risk, England's support for Northern Ireland is the issue of concern. Not all the people in Ireland, or Northern Ireland, are happy with the situation and these IRA blokes are lashing out again.
There are indeed economic benefits to forming political blocs, and Northern Ireland is benefiting from England's support. I see that as being similar to the support the UK is receiving from it's membership in the EU. In both instances there is a heated debate regarding the pros and cons. I also see an irony in England supporting Northern Ireland and not wanting anything to do with similar support from the EU. Does it have anything to do with the purity of the "British Identity" underlying all of this? I think that is a likelihood.
There are indeed economic benefits to forming political blocs, and Northern Ireland is benefiting from England's support. I see that as being similar to the support the UK is receiving from it's membership in the EU. In both instances there is a heated debate regarding the pros and cons. I also see an irony in England supporting Northern Ireland and not wanting anything to do with similar support from the EU. Does it have anything to do with the purity of the "British Identity" underlying all of this? I think that is a likelihood.
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Icey
Re: So it starts again .....
To your question Yogi, no I personally don't see the "purity" of British identity as having anything to do with troubles that we may be facing.
The uprising of the new IRA fraternity involves several issues. It's not just a case of wanting to break away from mainland Britain. As I mentioned before, the small percentage who wanted separation are always going to be peeved that their vote wasn't in the majority, so of course, they have to blame someone for that, but everyone was given the option. Now, we have north and south drug cartels fighting it out for supremacy, and although MI5've upped the security level, it's not thought that an immediate attack on our streets's going to happen. They know, however, that serious plans were drawn up, and they're looking for someone in connection with that. I DO think attacks're likely in the future, but don't see the connection between all this and many people wanting to leave the EU. There are separate issues connected with both subjects.
Only today, the government've finally admitted that the amount of immigrants who've been allowed into our country is 2/3 higher than the figure they first quoted, bringing in last year's migration to not far off a million people. There are many more, unaccounted for, of course, and we just don't have the room or the resources to take them in.
There are always folk wanting to take a pop at us. We're a resilient lot, and've just laughed off the innunendos, but now we've had enough. If we come out of the EU and it doesn't work - then I'm sure that we'll be in for more flack and problems galore, but if we thrive, then the whole EU might collapse without our input - something which your President spoke about when he was over here.
Irrespective of trade and every other thing on the political agenda, I don't think our ministers quite realised the deep feelings that the British public have. They feel abandoned. There're still many areas where unemployment's high, austerity measures've seen people moved away from their homes (sometimes over 100 miles away from their families and friends) and having to cope with the embarrassment of using food kitchens. Disabled people've had their benefits taken off them, after being assessed by temporary staff with no medical training. Doctors surgeries're so full of appointments in some areas that patients can't get in for not just days, but weeks. Burglaries are being committed and there aren't enough police officers to deal with them. I could go on and on and on, just the same as everyone else who lives here, but you see Yogi, then we're swamped by migrants who've got through on fake documents and they're given immediate help. There's been an enormous amount of money available for these people, but not our own. It's not being racist to say that this practice's unfair. France's roughly twice the size of England, and Germany about 40% more, so they have a bit more room to accommodate these people, but it's exasperating when families (with no passports or paperwork to prove they're related) move in and're given everything for free. It's not just a case of sour grapes. The question is: why? Obviously there's something in it for the government. We have a huge melting pot of different races and religions here, and we try to get on with everyone, but you can imagine the feeling when they bite the hands that feed. Muslims, whether from Africa, Asia or anywhere else, come over and openly say they hate us. That's gratitude, after saving them from persecution and fear which they all give as a reason for wanting to be on our shores. In many cases it may be true, but there're others who wave placards and threaten to kill us. They're allowed to get away with it, so another IRA threat's not much different. We're used to being in the firing line by one group or another.
The uprising of the new IRA fraternity involves several issues. It's not just a case of wanting to break away from mainland Britain. As I mentioned before, the small percentage who wanted separation are always going to be peeved that their vote wasn't in the majority, so of course, they have to blame someone for that, but everyone was given the option. Now, we have north and south drug cartels fighting it out for supremacy, and although MI5've upped the security level, it's not thought that an immediate attack on our streets's going to happen. They know, however, that serious plans were drawn up, and they're looking for someone in connection with that. I DO think attacks're likely in the future, but don't see the connection between all this and many people wanting to leave the EU. There are separate issues connected with both subjects.
Only today, the government've finally admitted that the amount of immigrants who've been allowed into our country is 2/3 higher than the figure they first quoted, bringing in last year's migration to not far off a million people. There are many more, unaccounted for, of course, and we just don't have the room or the resources to take them in.
There are always folk wanting to take a pop at us. We're a resilient lot, and've just laughed off the innunendos, but now we've had enough. If we come out of the EU and it doesn't work - then I'm sure that we'll be in for more flack and problems galore, but if we thrive, then the whole EU might collapse without our input - something which your President spoke about when he was over here.
Irrespective of trade and every other thing on the political agenda, I don't think our ministers quite realised the deep feelings that the British public have. They feel abandoned. There're still many areas where unemployment's high, austerity measures've seen people moved away from their homes (sometimes over 100 miles away from their families and friends) and having to cope with the embarrassment of using food kitchens. Disabled people've had their benefits taken off them, after being assessed by temporary staff with no medical training. Doctors surgeries're so full of appointments in some areas that patients can't get in for not just days, but weeks. Burglaries are being committed and there aren't enough police officers to deal with them. I could go on and on and on, just the same as everyone else who lives here, but you see Yogi, then we're swamped by migrants who've got through on fake documents and they're given immediate help. There's been an enormous amount of money available for these people, but not our own. It's not being racist to say that this practice's unfair. France's roughly twice the size of England, and Germany about 40% more, so they have a bit more room to accommodate these people, but it's exasperating when families (with no passports or paperwork to prove they're related) move in and're given everything for free. It's not just a case of sour grapes. The question is: why? Obviously there's something in it for the government. We have a huge melting pot of different races and religions here, and we try to get on with everyone, but you can imagine the feeling when they bite the hands that feed. Muslims, whether from Africa, Asia or anywhere else, come over and openly say they hate us. That's gratitude, after saving them from persecution and fear which they all give as a reason for wanting to be on our shores. In many cases it may be true, but there're others who wave placards and threaten to kill us. They're allowed to get away with it, so another IRA threat's not much different. We're used to being in the firing line by one group or another.