Thought I would toss this in here, since it consumed about three hours yesterday, trying to talk someone through an electrical problem in their house.
The person in question doesn't really understand house wiring which made it more difficult.
He can replace outlets and switches, and he replaced a ceiling fan because it was humming loud, and the new one did not work at all.
To cut three hours of conversation down to the basics.
The ceiling box only had three wires, two white, one black.
The wall switch was a dimmer switch with the dimmer turned off, so it worked like a normal switch.
There were only two wires in the wall switch box, a white and a black. This is normal.
It means the power to the switch is coming from the ceiling box, which is also normal.
However, a ceiling box usually has a 3-wire feed, with white, black, and red.
Then it would have the black and white from the switch, for a total of five wires in the ceiling box.
But his ceiling box only had three wires total. Very odd!
The person said when he took down the old fan, the two white wires were connected together.
The white wire from the fan also went to the white wires, and the black and blue wires from the fan went to the black wire. And this is where the confusion started for me.
Logic dictates that those two white wires could not be connected together, because because one of those white wires is used to send the electric to the light switch and the power would return via the black wire.
However, there was no power on either of the two white wires. Also no power on the black wire with the switch set to the On position.
He had no test equipment, but did have a small 4 watt night light and a couple of pieces of wire.
I had him add the wires to the little prongs on the night light plug and wrap them with electrical tape.
But I still needed a ground from somewhere, as the switch box was plastic and no ground wire present.
I had him grab an extension cord and plug it into an outlet near the switch, then had him stick one wire in the large hole on the extension cord, and the other wire against the white wire connection on the switch. Voila, the light lit up as expected. Then I had him touch the black wire connection, with the switch off, nada, with the switch on, the light lit, but seemed a bit dimmer than it should be. (This is a clue for later).
Where is the power on the white wire coming from if not from the ceiling box?
He had to get a ladder, clean out part of the master bedroom closet to get the ladder in there, then open the ceiling panel in the closet to get into the attic.
BINGO!
On the side of the ceiling joist next to the ceiling box, was a small pull box.
This pull box had the normal two wires coming in to it from the panel breaker box.
Plus it had the two wires from the light switch.
Plus two more wires going to another rooms ceiling box.
Rather than explain where all the wires went. I'll just stick to the convoluted basics.
Inside the pull box on the ceiling joist, the black power wire was connected to the white wire down to the switch.
The white neutral wire was fed into the ceiling box, as was the black wire from the switch.
The other white wire in the ceiling box was fed from the other ceiling box in another room to the ceiling box in this room and they were twisted together as they were discovered originally. The black wire for the other room was connected with the black wire and white wire in the pull box on the joist.
OK, now that we know how the wiring is run, WHY isn't the new fan working?
The fact the old fan, which was also a new fan, was making a loud hum was another key (Clue here too).
Plus the fact the test light was a little dim (yet another clue).
Today's dimmer switches are sorta like a switching power supply. You can get a good reading that the power supply is good, but will not work under load.
In dimmer mode, the switch would make the light go off and on, but in the work like a switch mode, the light did not come to full brightness.
That told me his problem all along was that convoluted dimmer switch he was using.
His old fan was probably OK, but with low power it made the motor hum loudly.
I had him replace the dimmer switch with a switch he cobbed from another room, and voila, the fan now worked.
He still had to do some rewiring in order to connect up the remote control system for the fan, which is simple to do.
He just needed to disconnect the black and blue wires from the fan to the black power wire from the switch, and then hook the blue wire to blue, the yellow wire to the black fan wire, and the red wire to the power source from the switch.
Everything now works with no hum on the old or new fan, he tested both. He'll take the old fan back since they are identical fans.
And that is how I lost three hours on the phone yesterday, hi hi.
Electrical Problems
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Re: Electrical Problems
I know why you wrote about that light problem because I have been off on a Linux adventure and considered telling you about it here for the same reasons you must have had to write about your 3 hours of dimmer switch fun and games. Perhaps I'll do just that ... later.
My 36 year working career was spent in the field of electronics. You have expertise as an electrician. As much as the names sound alike, I have learned over the years that they are two entirely different worlds in spite of the fact that they share the same physics. I've wired up a few things in the houses I've maintained, and I've always managed to get things to work. However, if I were faced with the situation you described, I'd be calling a contractor out to rewire the whole house. But even so, the obvious logic I've learned in electronics would still not apply well to what the electrician does. The confusion I'm experiencing with your story is that it's all based on wire colors. There were some conventions in my work, but color was the least important for circuit wiring. I think I have black and white a/c down pat; oh, and maybe green too. LOL But the rest of it is voodoo or something from the Twilight Zone. You are truly a genius to be able to troubleshoot the problem over the phone. It would have taken me three days and not merely three hours.
I might have figured the dimmer switch was part of the problem but that hidden pull box would be a show stopper. I think all those kind of junction boxes are supposed to be clearly visible just to prevent the kind of problems in your story. Also, I don't think I could work with a light bulb as a piece of test equipment. I need to see numbers on a DVM, and actually an oscilloscope would probably have told me the dimmer was the culprit. All I can say is that those three hours were not wasted. Not only did you help a poor soul in need, but you gave your brain some healthy exercise. Bravo to you, my friend.
Re: Electrical Problems
Since I worked in both fields, and was a licensed electrician, and before I went meshugenah, a top chip level electronics expert on gaming computer boards. Shame I lost that latter part. But the electric has always stuck with me. Probably because of the way I learned it. Lifelong experience trumps book learning!
I cut my teeth working on old Knob and Tube wiring, which was all one color, rotten black cloth over crumbled rubber coatings, thank goodness for friction tape to hold it all together, hi hi.
Although we never have a need to use it, in order to get your electricians license you have to know how to wire hi-rise buildings, mega-complexes, and hospitals for which everything is different than normal residential or light commercial. Industrial gets into a little more, but still different than hospitals.
The owner of Steffen Electric who taught me from cub on up, was a perfectionist, which is why we got along so well.
He was a stickler about the oddest things most electricians don't even pay attention to.
Here are two examples: And I feel the first of them should be a safety rule and required by code.
Whether you are wiring a 3-way or 4-way setup, if ALL the switches are in the down position, the Load should be OFF.
The other is, and he was adamant about this one. The slots in the SCREWS in the COVER Plate must ALWAYS BE VERTICAL. His reasoning was, when you flip a switch, you often slide over the screw. Placing them vertical means you don't have an edge to scrape your fingers on, and it prevents them from catching and holding dust.
He also said, when a job is finished, it adds an appealing uniformity to the finished job. If the screws are all facing different directions, it makes the job look haphazard and shoddy. He did have a point! And his little rules stuck with me my whole life.
I used the word LOAD above when talking about switches.
I did not use those words in my original post because the person I was talking to would not know the terms.
LINE is the HOT input source. LOAD is the output, whether hot or not at the time.
So, the wire going from the source of power TO the light switch is called LINE, and the wire leaving the light switch is called LOAD. However, when you get up to the light fixture in the ceiling. The wire called LOAD at the switch is now called LINE at the light fixture because it is the source of power to the fixture.
Then when you get into 3-way switches, you have ONE Line and TWO Loads on the first switch, but in this case they are called Traveler Wires. But at the second 3-way switch, you have TWO Lines and ONE Load that goes to the fixture.
A 4-way switch has TWO Lines both Travelers and Two Loads, also both Travelers.
So, if you have a hallway with a light switch at each end, and one in the middle by another center room.
This layout requires a 3-way at each end, and a 4-way in the middle.
I'm sure it is obvious, when looking at a 3-way switch, that the LINE is diverted to only ONE of the Traveler wires, so one is hot, one is not. Flip the switch and the power on the travelers is reversed.
All a 4-way switch does is reverse the input and output traveler wires. If the power came in the top wire and went out the bottom wire, flipping the switch made the power come in the bottom wire and out the top wire on the other side of the switch. Very simple device, but they charge more for them, hi hi.
A double pole knife switch is another example of how some 4-way switches work, instead of the common X formula.
Changing the topic. I build a Binary Clock once using Neon Lamps, and a simple small timing circuit. The timing circuit used the existing 60Hz feed as the counter, divided down of course. It was much more complex than the ones you can build using computer chips, hi hi. Back when I did build it, about all we had were power transistors to act as switches in lieu of using relays. The only thing I never figured out was how to set it easily. I used momentary contact switches to move the scale up, on each digit, but could not make it go backwards. At least I lucked out the power fluctuations sometimes caused it to be slow, so I only had to push the minute button to get it back to the right time again.
I was just thinking, if I still had it, I wouldn't remember how to read it anymore, hi hi. The neon lights eventually burned out or turned black, and it was only built on a piece of pegboard which had also warped a little. But it did last several years before I tossed it. Besides, I had already built a clock from a kit that used Nixie Tubes to display the time. It only lasted about 3 years is all. Then I bought a clock that had little flapper pages in it that a motor turned and the pages would flip from the little finger that held them. It was totally mechanical, but looked like a digital clock. Now that one lasted about ten years before the edge of the pages where the finger held them wore through. I did move the finger over a tad so it ran a few years longer, but then the motor gave up the ghost. You may remember that type of clock.
I've had all kinds of interesting clocks over the years. Still have a couple of them, but packed in boxes, still, hi hi.
I cut my teeth working on old Knob and Tube wiring, which was all one color, rotten black cloth over crumbled rubber coatings, thank goodness for friction tape to hold it all together, hi hi.
Although we never have a need to use it, in order to get your electricians license you have to know how to wire hi-rise buildings, mega-complexes, and hospitals for which everything is different than normal residential or light commercial. Industrial gets into a little more, but still different than hospitals.
The owner of Steffen Electric who taught me from cub on up, was a perfectionist, which is why we got along so well.
He was a stickler about the oddest things most electricians don't even pay attention to.
Here are two examples: And I feel the first of them should be a safety rule and required by code.
Whether you are wiring a 3-way or 4-way setup, if ALL the switches are in the down position, the Load should be OFF.
The other is, and he was adamant about this one. The slots in the SCREWS in the COVER Plate must ALWAYS BE VERTICAL. His reasoning was, when you flip a switch, you often slide over the screw. Placing them vertical means you don't have an edge to scrape your fingers on, and it prevents them from catching and holding dust.
He also said, when a job is finished, it adds an appealing uniformity to the finished job. If the screws are all facing different directions, it makes the job look haphazard and shoddy. He did have a point! And his little rules stuck with me my whole life.
I used the word LOAD above when talking about switches.
I did not use those words in my original post because the person I was talking to would not know the terms.
LINE is the HOT input source. LOAD is the output, whether hot or not at the time.
So, the wire going from the source of power TO the light switch is called LINE, and the wire leaving the light switch is called LOAD. However, when you get up to the light fixture in the ceiling. The wire called LOAD at the switch is now called LINE at the light fixture because it is the source of power to the fixture.
Then when you get into 3-way switches, you have ONE Line and TWO Loads on the first switch, but in this case they are called Traveler Wires. But at the second 3-way switch, you have TWO Lines and ONE Load that goes to the fixture.
A 4-way switch has TWO Lines both Travelers and Two Loads, also both Travelers.
So, if you have a hallway with a light switch at each end, and one in the middle by another center room.
This layout requires a 3-way at each end, and a 4-way in the middle.
I'm sure it is obvious, when looking at a 3-way switch, that the LINE is diverted to only ONE of the Traveler wires, so one is hot, one is not. Flip the switch and the power on the travelers is reversed.
All a 4-way switch does is reverse the input and output traveler wires. If the power came in the top wire and went out the bottom wire, flipping the switch made the power come in the bottom wire and out the top wire on the other side of the switch. Very simple device, but they charge more for them, hi hi.
A double pole knife switch is another example of how some 4-way switches work, instead of the common X formula.
Changing the topic. I build a Binary Clock once using Neon Lamps, and a simple small timing circuit. The timing circuit used the existing 60Hz feed as the counter, divided down of course. It was much more complex than the ones you can build using computer chips, hi hi. Back when I did build it, about all we had were power transistors to act as switches in lieu of using relays. The only thing I never figured out was how to set it easily. I used momentary contact switches to move the scale up, on each digit, but could not make it go backwards. At least I lucked out the power fluctuations sometimes caused it to be slow, so I only had to push the minute button to get it back to the right time again.
I was just thinking, if I still had it, I wouldn't remember how to read it anymore, hi hi. The neon lights eventually burned out or turned black, and it was only built on a piece of pegboard which had also warped a little. But it did last several years before I tossed it. Besides, I had already built a clock from a kit that used Nixie Tubes to display the time. It only lasted about 3 years is all. Then I bought a clock that had little flapper pages in it that a motor turned and the pages would flip from the little finger that held them. It was totally mechanical, but looked like a digital clock. Now that one lasted about ten years before the edge of the pages where the finger held them wore through. I did move the finger over a tad so it ran a few years longer, but then the motor gave up the ghost. You may remember that type of clock.
I've had all kinds of interesting clocks over the years. Still have a couple of them, but packed in boxes, still, hi hi.
Re: Electrical Problems
Most of my technician life was time immersed in reading schematic diagrams or flow charts. Oh, yeah, I did some programing too. LOL There were a lot of visual aides to help me understand what the heck people were talking about, and believe me, that's some accomplishment when talking to a community of engineers. They are like doctors with their own jargon and arrogance toward anyone without a degree in their field. So, when you talk, lines, loads, and travelers those are concepts, not pictures. I know what you mean and probably could wire up a house from scratch given enough time and your phone number. But, my life would be a lot easier if I had a blueprint and/or schematic to work from. Electricians don't need that kind of help.
There was an Inn just outside of Rockford, Illinois, which was the home of the Clocktower Museum. It was a modified banquet room in the Clocktower Inn that was home to a huge collection of clocks. They had everything from a sundial to an atomic clock. A few of the clocks were exceptionally ornate with animated figures off churches in Europe. The trick was to be there on the hour when all the clocks started chiming. It was a small museum but amazing nonetheless. We would go there and stay overnight just to take in the museum. But, alas, and I don't know the whole story, the curator of the museum decided to not curate anymore. They donated all the clocks to various organizations and closed down the museum. It was a one of a kind place and a shame it no longer exists.
There was an Inn just outside of Rockford, Illinois, which was the home of the Clocktower Museum. It was a modified banquet room in the Clocktower Inn that was home to a huge collection of clocks. They had everything from a sundial to an atomic clock. A few of the clocks were exceptionally ornate with animated figures off churches in Europe. The trick was to be there on the hour when all the clocks started chiming. It was a small museum but amazing nonetheless. We would go there and stay overnight just to take in the museum. But, alas, and I don't know the whole story, the curator of the museum decided to not curate anymore. They donated all the clocks to various organizations and closed down the museum. It was a one of a kind place and a shame it no longer exists.
Re: Electrical Problems
Most architectural drawing are very poorly done, even if they do include a wiring section. They usually only show the location of the switch box and the ceiling box and not much else.
More advanced drawings will sometimes show the path for conduit or Romex without defining how many wires are in it, and often leave out important things, which is why the amount of wire ordered is always short to do a job.
You can laugh at me, because when I do a drawing, I show everything, including where each stud is to be placed. The reason for this is, I'm often working in very tight tolerances, and I also know what will go where after the drywall is up.
It is really nice to have a stud where the shelf brackets go and not rely on just a hole in drywall for support.
When I designed my kitchen here, I placed a horizontal 2x4 where the new cabinets would be bolted. This made installation go fast, and the bolt placement uniform for every cabinet. They didn't have to hunt around for studs, and then find no stud where a bolt really needed to go. The installers loved this! Made their job super simple.
The same thing happens with architects and plumbing as well. They only show the exact place for the toilet flange, and for the sink waste lines. Some might show where they want the shut-off valves for supply lines. And usually the location of the main vent stack, but most all the rest is left up to the plumbing installers to figure out.
Heck, I was working on one new house when I was a cub for Laughlin Plumbing, the blueprints showed the location of the stack and the direction for the lateral line. But they made a HUGE mistake. The main sewer line the lateral ties to was not out at the street, which is normal, but instead it ran through the subdivision between the houses where the backyards met. Also an underground telephone would be installed back there above the sewer line but up near the surface, and also natural gas lines about 2 feet to the east of the sewer line and 5 feet higher.
The idea for the developer was to dig one deep wide trench, install the mainline sewer and add a lateral feed up about 4 feet from the mainline and 10 feet toward the house and cap it temporarily. Then backfill up to 5 feet below grade, and have the water and gas utilities installed, backfill over that then have the phone company install their lines.
In this case, electric was still on poles placed between side yards and offset about 10 feet from the other services.
This meant the power lines were going over the backyards of all the houses on the west or north side the streets.
Everything was right on the main plat maps, but the individual house drawing had it wrong on many of them.
We have lost a LOT of museums because of that very thing. Either the owner became ill or could not afford to maintain it anymore, and they had no offers to sell it intact. So about the only thing they can do is sell the individual items in the museum. In rare cases, a city may take over the museum, but not for the price the place was worth. This is what happened with our train museum in Kirkwood. They paid nearly nothing for it, used the park funds to renovate the place and had it turned into a public park and museum. At least after that, from donations and taxes they upgraded the place with more things to see.
My first wife's family had a cousin who owned an antique car museum. Nothing in there was newer than 1940. He inherited it from his father, and most of the cars in there were at one time his families cars.
Sorta like my grandpa in a way. When he retired a vehicle, it got parked in a barn because he considered it unsafe or no longer reliable and didn't want to tarnish his name by selling them.
In any case, the boy was killed in Vietnam, and had signed over all of his possessions to his wife, who turned around and sold everything off as fast as she could before the other relatives could make her keep the place intact.
More advanced drawings will sometimes show the path for conduit or Romex without defining how many wires are in it, and often leave out important things, which is why the amount of wire ordered is always short to do a job.
You can laugh at me, because when I do a drawing, I show everything, including where each stud is to be placed. The reason for this is, I'm often working in very tight tolerances, and I also know what will go where after the drywall is up.
It is really nice to have a stud where the shelf brackets go and not rely on just a hole in drywall for support.
When I designed my kitchen here, I placed a horizontal 2x4 where the new cabinets would be bolted. This made installation go fast, and the bolt placement uniform for every cabinet. They didn't have to hunt around for studs, and then find no stud where a bolt really needed to go. The installers loved this! Made their job super simple.
The same thing happens with architects and plumbing as well. They only show the exact place for the toilet flange, and for the sink waste lines. Some might show where they want the shut-off valves for supply lines. And usually the location of the main vent stack, but most all the rest is left up to the plumbing installers to figure out.
Heck, I was working on one new house when I was a cub for Laughlin Plumbing, the blueprints showed the location of the stack and the direction for the lateral line. But they made a HUGE mistake. The main sewer line the lateral ties to was not out at the street, which is normal, but instead it ran through the subdivision between the houses where the backyards met. Also an underground telephone would be installed back there above the sewer line but up near the surface, and also natural gas lines about 2 feet to the east of the sewer line and 5 feet higher.
The idea for the developer was to dig one deep wide trench, install the mainline sewer and add a lateral feed up about 4 feet from the mainline and 10 feet toward the house and cap it temporarily. Then backfill up to 5 feet below grade, and have the water and gas utilities installed, backfill over that then have the phone company install their lines.
In this case, electric was still on poles placed between side yards and offset about 10 feet from the other services.
This meant the power lines were going over the backyards of all the houses on the west or north side the streets.
Everything was right on the main plat maps, but the individual house drawing had it wrong on many of them.
We have lost a LOT of museums because of that very thing. Either the owner became ill or could not afford to maintain it anymore, and they had no offers to sell it intact. So about the only thing they can do is sell the individual items in the museum. In rare cases, a city may take over the museum, but not for the price the place was worth. This is what happened with our train museum in Kirkwood. They paid nearly nothing for it, used the park funds to renovate the place and had it turned into a public park and museum. At least after that, from donations and taxes they upgraded the place with more things to see.
My first wife's family had a cousin who owned an antique car museum. Nothing in there was newer than 1940. He inherited it from his father, and most of the cars in there were at one time his families cars.
Sorta like my grandpa in a way. When he retired a vehicle, it got parked in a barn because he considered it unsafe or no longer reliable and didn't want to tarnish his name by selling them.
In any case, the boy was killed in Vietnam, and had signed over all of his possessions to his wife, who turned around and sold everything off as fast as she could before the other relatives could make her keep the place intact.
Re: Electrical Problems
We hired an architect to draw up plans for the first house we build. After looking over a few drawings we picked a design that he happened to have recently done for another client. Most of the original drawings were used and he only had to touch them up for a few differences we requested. The bill of material was from the original house and he simply crossed out items that didn't apply and penciled in the missing items. I guess that saved him a lot of work, but when the drawings were delivered the front of the house was reversed from what we requested. The attached garage on the drawing was on the north side instead of the south side. The general contractor said he could work with this reversed drawing and thus there was no need to get the architect to take two weeks to draw things correctly.
Amazing as it seemed, they did in fact do a pretty good job from the backward drawing. The problem was that the front elevation was not symmetrical. The front door was about six inches off center by design. Well, the framers got that right but the brick masons didn't. Thus the brick work did not match the framing. From the outside it all looked fine, but the front door on the inside was up against a wall instead offset by that six inches. By that time a lot of the infrastructure was already in place and moving a wall 6" or moving the brickwork would really be a challenge. Doable, but a PIA. So we agreed to keep it as it was mistakenly built. All this was due to the architect being lazy and not drawing new plans from scratch.
Anything in Missouri would be new to us but the wife and I don't go out gallivanting like we used to. We've been self-quarantined ever since we moved into this place and kind of like it that way. Has something to do with getting old I think.
Amazing as it seemed, they did in fact do a pretty good job from the backward drawing. The problem was that the front elevation was not symmetrical. The front door was about six inches off center by design. Well, the framers got that right but the brick masons didn't. Thus the brick work did not match the framing. From the outside it all looked fine, but the front door on the inside was up against a wall instead offset by that six inches. By that time a lot of the infrastructure was already in place and moving a wall 6" or moving the brickwork would really be a challenge. Doable, but a PIA. So we agreed to keep it as it was mistakenly built. All this was due to the architect being lazy and not drawing new plans from scratch.
Anything in Missouri would be new to us but the wife and I don't go out gallivanting like we used to. We've been self-quarantined ever since we moved into this place and kind of like it that way. Has something to do with getting old I think.
Last edited by yogi on 19 Sep 2020, 17:07, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Electrical Problems
With today's CAD/CAM programs it should not have been a problem to reverse the drawing, the reverse only the text back to it wasn't backwards. In any case, the text is usually on a different layer as well.
I never went anywhere after I moved down here. They are grossly lacking in street signs down here, so you never knew what main road you just came up to. I did take a drive once, and thought I was heading toward home and ended up 30 miles further west than I thought I was. After that, I didn't go anywhere, other than to take Debi's mom to her doctors.
It wasn't until after my son bought me a nice GPS that I started venturing out and finding all kinds of things. Even downloaded some POI's to follow to see the areas attractions and sites. A lot of them were basically unknown too. That was a lot of fun. And I think I mentioned in the past I ran across a couple No Man's Land Areas due to mistakes on the USGS Surveys. Some of those have been corrected since I moved down here, but not many.
I never went anywhere after I moved down here. They are grossly lacking in street signs down here, so you never knew what main road you just came up to. I did take a drive once, and thought I was heading toward home and ended up 30 miles further west than I thought I was. After that, I didn't go anywhere, other than to take Debi's mom to her doctors.
It wasn't until after my son bought me a nice GPS that I started venturing out and finding all kinds of things. Even downloaded some POI's to follow to see the areas attractions and sites. A lot of them were basically unknown too. That was a lot of fun. And I think I mentioned in the past I ran across a couple No Man's Land Areas due to mistakes on the USGS Surveys. Some of those have been corrected since I moved down here, but not many.
Re: Electrical Problems
Our first year in O'Fallon was a comedy of errors. Good thing us old folks have a sense a humor and lots of time to spare because we got lost on almost every trip we made out of the house. At the time we had a GPS box but seldom took it to go to Walmart. But who knew there where three ways to get to and from Walmart and we would invariable pick the wrong one on the way home. LOL The Tom Tom was nice but smartphones are nicer. It's just a matter of asking the personal assistant where some place is and a map along with verbal instructions magically appear. My wife has a hard time talking to the computer which I never could understand. She talks on the telephone part of that computer all the time. So why not talk to the processor too? I dunno. Women just don't get it.
I'm sure they had CAD/CAM at the office of the architect who made the plans for our home. Exactly why there was a problem or why it would take two weeks to fix it was beyond my comprehension. We were on a schedule to get that house built and two weeks was important. We could not afford to lose it.
I'm sure they had CAD/CAM at the office of the architect who made the plans for our home. Exactly why there was a problem or why it would take two weeks to fix it was beyond my comprehension. We were on a schedule to get that house built and two weeks was important. We could not afford to lose it.
Re: Electrical Problems
My wife does almost everything on her Schmartz-Fone.
If it rings and she left it somewhere and asks me to bring it to her, I'm almost afraid to touch it, because something always happens that shouldn't and she has to undo it before she can answer the phone.
I've tried a couple of the new GPS units, but still like the old Garmin my son bought. It is not as fancy as the new ones, but I know how to work it to my benefit. The new ones were driving me nuts. I supposed I could have got used to them over time, but I like the BIG screen on my Garmin, and all the info it gives. All of them do if you know how to get to it, but on this one it is all on the display.
It could be your architect, once they finish a drawing, combine all the layers into a single printout layer, and perhaps they delete all the other layers to save space, and confusion when looking up old drawings.
The CAD/CAM program I use allows you to flip the drawing, and then the option to Mirror the Text, which keeps it where it is at, but flips it back over so it read right. It is actually better to mirror the text first, then flip the whole drawing over. Doing it the way I first said might move all the text back to where it was before you flipped the drawing over.
If it rings and she left it somewhere and asks me to bring it to her, I'm almost afraid to touch it, because something always happens that shouldn't and she has to undo it before she can answer the phone.
I've tried a couple of the new GPS units, but still like the old Garmin my son bought. It is not as fancy as the new ones, but I know how to work it to my benefit. The new ones were driving me nuts. I supposed I could have got used to them over time, but I like the BIG screen on my Garmin, and all the info it gives. All of them do if you know how to get to it, but on this one it is all on the display.
It could be your architect, once they finish a drawing, combine all the layers into a single printout layer, and perhaps they delete all the other layers to save space, and confusion when looking up old drawings.
The CAD/CAM program I use allows you to flip the drawing, and then the option to Mirror the Text, which keeps it where it is at, but flips it back over so it read right. It is actually better to mirror the text first, then flip the whole drawing over. Doing it the way I first said might move all the text back to where it was before you flipped the drawing over.
Re: Electrical Problems
Back in the old days before smartphones there used to be a device called a Personal Digital Assistant (PDA). I never had one so that I don't know if you could talk to it or not, but probably not. Speech recognition is relatively new in the field of computerized assistance. I also think it was HP that sold a version of it, but there were other companies too. In any case, the idea behind it all was to have a digital version of an administrative assistant which can be carried around in your pocket. Now with the embedding of smartphones into our consciousness, the concept of a personal assistant has taken on more intelligence than it's predecessors. Obviously the PDA can't do "everything" but if you ever had an administrative assistant in real life, today's smartphones can duplicate just about everything they did - except make your coffee. Given all the intelligence and technology built into today's smartphones, some of the basic things are still very crude or impossible to figure out. As you point out, just moving the phone can jiggle the touch screen and upset the entire routine. It's the same problem I have with touchpads on laptop computers. Why can't the touchscreen be disabled in the same way as the touchpad? Well, I know why, but as you point out it is often a PIA when dealing with it.
We had a couple versions of Garmin GPS and finally switched to TomTom. One of the incredibly remarkable engineering feats of those old Garmins was the memory. They could not be updated because there was no spare memory in which to do it. The OS and maps took up all the available memory space save for a couple hundred KBs which was not enough to do anything extra. They gave me the option to update maps every year or to buy a lifetime update. The only problem with that is it pertains to the software only. The new maps won't fit into the limited memory. So the update is free for the price of the subscription, but the device can't handle it. A new device must be purchased. The TomTom I have has tons of extra memory and the forever updates were part of the purchase price. It too will eventually become obsolete, but at least TomTom isn't a Ponzi scheme in disguise. As far as features go, well I can't say I noted much difference between the Garmin and the TomTom. That might be due to the fact that I never upgraded it and only used the basic functions. I always got the largest screens they had available at the time and can't complain about that either.
We had a couple versions of Garmin GPS and finally switched to TomTom. One of the incredibly remarkable engineering feats of those old Garmins was the memory. They could not be updated because there was no spare memory in which to do it. The OS and maps took up all the available memory space save for a couple hundred KBs which was not enough to do anything extra. They gave me the option to update maps every year or to buy a lifetime update. The only problem with that is it pertains to the software only. The new maps won't fit into the limited memory. So the update is free for the price of the subscription, but the device can't handle it. A new device must be purchased. The TomTom I have has tons of extra memory and the forever updates were part of the purchase price. It too will eventually become obsolete, but at least TomTom isn't a Ponzi scheme in disguise. As far as features go, well I can't say I noted much difference between the Garmin and the TomTom. That might be due to the fact that I never upgraded it and only used the basic functions. I always got the largest screens they had available at the time and can't complain about that either.
Re: Electrical Problems
I have a PalmONE PDA I still use every single day. Ironic the battery in it has never gone bad, and it is at least ten years old if not older, heck it might even be pushing twenty years old. I've had it a long long time now.
The model is Tungsten E2, which was their cheaper one at the time I bought it.
What I like about it was I could write on it with a pen, or draw something too.
Or I could open the keyboard and type something out.
It used to be when a lot of people had one, you could send data back and forth just by pointing them toward each other.
That was handy when my doctor had one, and one of my clients did too.
I updated the maps in my Garmin a couple of times, plus I have about 50 songs stored in it, and close to 20 POI files to follow. I was a little mad when I did update the map due to the cost, only to find Knoxville was not in the update. They only update Knoxville about once every ten years, so I basically paid for a useless upgrade.
I do know the largest SD card that my Garmin holds is only 1 gig. Didn't figure that out until I bought a new SD card for my camera, and tried to put the 3 gig one into the Garmin. I think the one in my PDA is 5 gigs? I don't remember anymore.
I bought a TomTom brand back when Radio Shack was selling them, got it for the wife's car just before she left on a trip to Florida. She hated it so took my old Garmin, and I tried to use the TomTom a few times. The one I bought was not intuitive enough to use while driving, I didn't like having to take my eyes off the road to get to a display I wanted to see.
Maybe their higher priced units were better? I think she sold it to one of her cousins after she got a new Schmartz-Fone.
My son now has a Garmin Drive Smart. I don't know which model number, but he loves it. Likes it much better than the on-board unit that came built-in on his new car.
About the only thing I really need mine for is to get me back home if I get out and get lost, hi hi.
It has a Go Home feature that gets me home again, which I'm sure they all have, hi hi.
The model is Tungsten E2, which was their cheaper one at the time I bought it.
What I like about it was I could write on it with a pen, or draw something too.
Or I could open the keyboard and type something out.
It used to be when a lot of people had one, you could send data back and forth just by pointing them toward each other.
That was handy when my doctor had one, and one of my clients did too.
I updated the maps in my Garmin a couple of times, plus I have about 50 songs stored in it, and close to 20 POI files to follow. I was a little mad when I did update the map due to the cost, only to find Knoxville was not in the update. They only update Knoxville about once every ten years, so I basically paid for a useless upgrade.
I do know the largest SD card that my Garmin holds is only 1 gig. Didn't figure that out until I bought a new SD card for my camera, and tried to put the 3 gig one into the Garmin. I think the one in my PDA is 5 gigs? I don't remember anymore.
I bought a TomTom brand back when Radio Shack was selling them, got it for the wife's car just before she left on a trip to Florida. She hated it so took my old Garmin, and I tried to use the TomTom a few times. The one I bought was not intuitive enough to use while driving, I didn't like having to take my eyes off the road to get to a display I wanted to see.
Maybe their higher priced units were better? I think she sold it to one of her cousins after she got a new Schmartz-Fone.
My son now has a Garmin Drive Smart. I don't know which model number, but he loves it. Likes it much better than the on-board unit that came built-in on his new car.
About the only thing I really need mine for is to get me back home if I get out and get lost, hi hi.
It has a Go Home feature that gets me home again, which I'm sure they all have, hi hi.
Re: Electrical Problems
The TomTom I have shows ~1.5 GB of memory available, and I don't know how much it has to begin with. The maps take up a couple gigs at least. There isn't a lot of variation between stand alone GPS's. I think most of the differences are in the GUI and even then they all look pretty much alike. How many different ways can you draw a roadmap anyway? The last time I went out looking for anew GPS the clerk gave me a funny look. Why do you want a GPS when you have a smartphone? Good question. LOL Aside from the Take Me Home feature, the most useful part of the TomTom is the store of restaurants and other shops it maintains. Then one day on a road trip my navigator wife discovered she can find those places by asking her smartphone. Unfortunately, there are some spots on the road still without cell phone coverage so that we take the TomTom with us as a backup.
Apparently newer cars can use your smartphone as part of it's display panel. Anything your phone can do, your car system will be able to do too. That all depends on the brand of phone matching what's in the car. Some are set up for iOS and others for Android. Until driving becomes a totally autonomous experience, I don't see using the in car system because I still have to take my eyes off the road to see what the panel is telling me most of the time.
Apparently newer cars can use your smartphone as part of it's display panel. Anything your phone can do, your car system will be able to do too. That all depends on the brand of phone matching what's in the car. Some are set up for iOS and others for Android. Until driving becomes a totally autonomous experience, I don't see using the in car system because I still have to take my eyes off the road to see what the panel is telling me most of the time.
Re: Electrical Problems
Units like I have were geared strictly to read Road Maps. And once they get a strong signal, they align your coordinates with the map, and after that they are fairly accurate as far as your location goes.
My Garmin could not handle Trail or River Maps. Oh it shows rivers based on the Road Maps but that's about it.
I used to go to places where there were no official roads and set a Location Point for my Garmin to Remember.
It would Remember where I set the point, but not exactly how to get back there once you leave, hi hi.
Doesn't help if it takes you via roads to the other side of a river.
One of my friends has a very expensive GPS unit that shows Hiking Trails and Exact Location Points. So even if you go somewhere where there are no trails, it somehow tracks the way you got there and records how you got there.
At least that is how I assume it does it.
I guess I should say, the guy was Heavily Into GeoCaching a few years back when he bought the device.
Long before GPS units ever existed, as a Ham Radio Operator, we used to do something similar.
We would put a 2-meter transmitter in a bucket to send out a short 3 second signal every 15 minutes.
It usually took three of us working together to find where that location was, using triangulation.
But one person could by himself using a direction antenna and a map.
You just draw a line on the map from where you are toward the direction of the signal.
Then drive about 90 degrees away from where you were and lock on a second signal.
Draw that line on the map. Where the two lines cross will get you close enough to walk following the signal.
But a lot of the time you were still off a bit and it took some work to find the transmitter box, often up high in a tree.
But one you found it, for certain, you radioed in that you captured the Fox. There was usually a person there in hiding too and they would come out if you could give the number on the bottom of the box you could see from the ground.
Ah, the good ole days! I had a lot of energy back then, hi hi.
My Garmin could not handle Trail or River Maps. Oh it shows rivers based on the Road Maps but that's about it.
I used to go to places where there were no official roads and set a Location Point for my Garmin to Remember.
It would Remember where I set the point, but not exactly how to get back there once you leave, hi hi.
Doesn't help if it takes you via roads to the other side of a river.
One of my friends has a very expensive GPS unit that shows Hiking Trails and Exact Location Points. So even if you go somewhere where there are no trails, it somehow tracks the way you got there and records how you got there.
At least that is how I assume it does it.
I guess I should say, the guy was Heavily Into GeoCaching a few years back when he bought the device.
Long before GPS units ever existed, as a Ham Radio Operator, we used to do something similar.
We would put a 2-meter transmitter in a bucket to send out a short 3 second signal every 15 minutes.
It usually took three of us working together to find where that location was, using triangulation.
But one person could by himself using a direction antenna and a map.
You just draw a line on the map from where you are toward the direction of the signal.
Then drive about 90 degrees away from where you were and lock on a second signal.
Draw that line on the map. Where the two lines cross will get you close enough to walk following the signal.
But a lot of the time you were still off a bit and it took some work to find the transmitter box, often up high in a tree.
But one you found it, for certain, you radioed in that you captured the Fox. There was usually a person there in hiding too and they would come out if you could give the number on the bottom of the box you could see from the ground.
Ah, the good ole days! I had a lot of energy back then, hi hi.
Re: Electrical Problems
Amateur radio had it's 15 minutes of tech fame, but now and days it's Pokémon Go. LOL Ham operators are becoming as rare as hair on a frog but I don't suppose they will ever vanish entirely. The demographics for mobile device users has changed drastically as well. I don't know any kid that even knows what Ham Radio is, but there are a ton of them collecting invisible critters with their friends as they roam the streets at night. I hope there is such a thing as reincarnation. I want to come back about 100 years from now and see what replaced computers.
As far as GPS's go, I've seen some that are designed for automobiles, biking, jogging, and walking. I think it was a Garmin too which had all those modes in the same box. If you have the right software, plotting a trail of where you have been and storing it in memory is no big trick. It's just not the kind of thing everybody wants or needs.
As far as GPS's go, I've seen some that are designed for automobiles, biking, jogging, and walking. I think it was a Garmin too which had all those modes in the same box. If you have the right software, plotting a trail of where you have been and storing it in memory is no big trick. It's just not the kind of thing everybody wants or needs.
Re: Electrical Problems
There are many emergency groups who are all Hams, because we will be needed when all other forms of communication gets disrupted. Nearly everything that has to do with any form of communications these days relies on the Internet and its cabling systems. One good EMT attack and nearly everything computerized will no longer work.
The REACT and ERRS units I worked with both had large underground steel boxes lined with lead, where many types of radio equipment are stored. Not necessarily underground as in the dirt, hi hi. In sub-basements of some buildings. Then when I was active, I always kept a couple of my battery powered rigs stored in a grounded metal GI can in my basement.
I used to enjoy talking with my grandpa. He talked about the family sitting around one of those newfangled radios listening to the news of the day. Or listening to a comedy show after dinner. Then little by little different family members managed to buy those little screen big box black n white TVs that were a pain to use.
When color TV came out, my dad bought one for my grandpa and he was thoroughly amazed with it.
My dad, who never used anything but a manual typewriter and a Victor Adding Machine, steered clear of my early computer I put at work. Once he saw how much work it saved me, he was interested, but not enough to try one himself.
He didn't even like an electric typewriter, hi hi.
Ironically, long after he retired, and my brother needed some help with his business. He asked my dad to come in to help.
My brother taught my dad how to use a computer, do accounts payable on the cougar mountain ap package, and how to run backups on 5-1/4 floppies of which my dad almost made a religion of doing that, plus a copy he carried home each night for safe keeping, hi hi.
After dad could not longer work at all, my brother gave him one of their older computers, and dad set up a desk at home, and sorta like me, if you wanted to know where he was, he was probably sitting at the computer.
I don't think he ever played a game on the computer, but it kept him busy organizing everything he wanted organized before he died. Good thing he did that, it sure made it easy on the family with all the data he had outlined and ready to go.
If you have the big bucks, there are GPS units that are quite accurate. So much so, farmers now use them to plant their fields. But then too they had to buy all the associated computing equipment for their machines in order to open the seed boxes, raise and lower the plows or planters. It is amazing how GPS has changed a lot of industries.
The REACT and ERRS units I worked with both had large underground steel boxes lined with lead, where many types of radio equipment are stored. Not necessarily underground as in the dirt, hi hi. In sub-basements of some buildings. Then when I was active, I always kept a couple of my battery powered rigs stored in a grounded metal GI can in my basement.
I used to enjoy talking with my grandpa. He talked about the family sitting around one of those newfangled radios listening to the news of the day. Or listening to a comedy show after dinner. Then little by little different family members managed to buy those little screen big box black n white TVs that were a pain to use.
When color TV came out, my dad bought one for my grandpa and he was thoroughly amazed with it.
My dad, who never used anything but a manual typewriter and a Victor Adding Machine, steered clear of my early computer I put at work. Once he saw how much work it saved me, he was interested, but not enough to try one himself.
He didn't even like an electric typewriter, hi hi.
Ironically, long after he retired, and my brother needed some help with his business. He asked my dad to come in to help.
My brother taught my dad how to use a computer, do accounts payable on the cougar mountain ap package, and how to run backups on 5-1/4 floppies of which my dad almost made a religion of doing that, plus a copy he carried home each night for safe keeping, hi hi.
After dad could not longer work at all, my brother gave him one of their older computers, and dad set up a desk at home, and sorta like me, if you wanted to know where he was, he was probably sitting at the computer.
I don't think he ever played a game on the computer, but it kept him busy organizing everything he wanted organized before he died. Good thing he did that, it sure made it easy on the family with all the data he had outlined and ready to go.
If you have the big bucks, there are GPS units that are quite accurate. So much so, farmers now use them to plant their fields. But then too they had to buy all the associated computing equipment for their machines in order to open the seed boxes, raise and lower the plows or planters. It is amazing how GPS has changed a lot of industries.
Re: Electrical Problems
I must be pretty damned old because I can still remember the days when we sat around the radio listening to Jack Benny, Arthur Godfrey, Groucho Marx, and all the rest. Mom loved the soap operas. The interesting thing there is that I was around when they actually were selling (Ivory) soap during those radio drama shows. LOL Our first television was a Senora brand and a hand me down from an uncle who passed away. The box was easily 30" on all sides and the screen was all of 6" -- it might have been bigger but not much. The television augmented the oil burner we used to heat the house. It must have had two dozen vacuum tubes in it and generated a lot of heat. The cabinet was solid wood too. Those were the old days, but looking back I can't say they were really good.
Farmers have some pretty fancy, and unbelievably expensive, equipment. I was talking to one not too long ago and he was telling us how boring it was to plant his crops. He sits in a closed air conditioned cabin of a John Deere tractor, pushes a few buttons, and then plays games on his smartphone while the machine does the soil turning and planting. It's all done with computers and GPS, of course, and I'm not sure why a real human has to sit in the cockpit. Agriculture sure isn't what it used to be.
Farmers have some pretty fancy, and unbelievably expensive, equipment. I was talking to one not too long ago and he was telling us how boring it was to plant his crops. He sits in a closed air conditioned cabin of a John Deere tractor, pushes a few buttons, and then plays games on his smartphone while the machine does the soil turning and planting. It's all done with computers and GPS, of course, and I'm not sure why a real human has to sit in the cockpit. Agriculture sure isn't what it used to be.
Re: Electrical Problems
Here is a feather in your cap -- My Dad only bought Motorola TVs, at least since I was old enough to recognize brand names.
Also pissed of my uncle who was selling RCA TVs, hi hi.
Dig this, I had the metal case from an old Motorola TV, one dad gave to grandpa, and I got back after he passed.
I mounted the case on a stand, added two air blowers one in the front blowing across the glass, and one in the back exhausted through a tube to outside. This became my sandblasting cabinet. On the front left was a bright rubber covered light bulb to add light inside. In the bottom front of the case were two large rectangular openings where the controls used to go. I used the legs from blue jeans to pass my arms though on these holes to keep the sand dust inside the cabinet.
I added the shelf from an oven inside for setting parts to sand blast on. I left the front glass loose so I could tilt it out to add or remove things for sandblasting, plus had about a dozen spare glass sheets cut to size to replace as they got gray from sand hitting them. I used that thing for many years. It was one of the things that went at auction. The whole sandblast system, air tank and compressor, gun, nozzles, recapture system and the cabinet. The blowers alone were like 150 bucks each, and the compressor was around 350 bucks. It went for like 25 bucks at auction.
Farmers won't have to sit in their air conditioned tractor cabins much longer. They now have totally remote controlled machines that do nearly everything now. But only the largest of companies can afford them at this time.
I watched a video of a monster machine that not only plowed, but also picked up the dirt, pulverized it, put it back down again as neat and clean as a paved road, but soft dirt of course. It could be set to add nutrients to the soil as it was pulverized, and then the machine could plant the plants in several lines as it moved. One pass across the field and it was plowed, turned into top soil, leveled, with nutrients added, and the plants planted all in on pass.
Another harvester just as large could go through and pick out only the ripe strawberries and actually package them by graded sizes into the little plastic strawberry baskets. They could optionally add the plastic film wrap for over the baskets too, but this one didn't have that.
On a side note, they say automation is taking over jobs, but I wonder if that is truly so.
A farmer and his three sons can only do so much. They hire maybe five other seasonal workers at the appropriate times.
A friend who raises tomatoes they only hire extra help during the harvest season.
Their own family did all the plowing and planting. Their farm is still the same size.
However, they went from planting each plant by hand, one at a time up one row and back down the other, to using a manual planter they had to push themselves. Then they got a little fancier and a little bigger planter, and eventually bought a self-powered planter. It is still the same people doing the work as it has always been. With each new machine, they may have got done a little bit faster, but mostly, rather than speed, it saved their back and knees, since it could be done standing up instead of stooped over moving down to their knees and back up again.
Now they have a machine that does four rows at once, but they still have to load the machine with the small plants that are getting planted. This new machine does add the stakes into the ground for them as it plants the plants. So the only difference it has made is now they have to remove all the stakes at the end of the season to clear the area for the next season. Still the same workers, only they don't have to work as hard or do as much physical labor. Still takes about the same amount of time, just less strenuously is all, maybe a little faster. The downside of the higher tech equipment is they actually earn less money, because of the cost of the equipment and its maintenance. Product sales are the same as always, and it really didn't go up much in ten years. In some cases what they sold for 10 bucks is now 12 bucks, and almost all of those increases had to do with tax increases they had to pay out.
Now if they could afford one of those fancy tomato harvesting machines that only picked the fruit at the proper time, then it would save the the cost of hiring season harvesters. But the machines cost much more than hiring transients, and are usually more reliable, hi hi.
FWIW - Most of these crop pickers only do so for a few years before moving up to something better anyhow, and always for easier work at higher pay. Perhaps as harvesting machine operators?
Also pissed of my uncle who was selling RCA TVs, hi hi.
Dig this, I had the metal case from an old Motorola TV, one dad gave to grandpa, and I got back after he passed.
I mounted the case on a stand, added two air blowers one in the front blowing across the glass, and one in the back exhausted through a tube to outside. This became my sandblasting cabinet. On the front left was a bright rubber covered light bulb to add light inside. In the bottom front of the case were two large rectangular openings where the controls used to go. I used the legs from blue jeans to pass my arms though on these holes to keep the sand dust inside the cabinet.
I added the shelf from an oven inside for setting parts to sand blast on. I left the front glass loose so I could tilt it out to add or remove things for sandblasting, plus had about a dozen spare glass sheets cut to size to replace as they got gray from sand hitting them. I used that thing for many years. It was one of the things that went at auction. The whole sandblast system, air tank and compressor, gun, nozzles, recapture system and the cabinet. The blowers alone were like 150 bucks each, and the compressor was around 350 bucks. It went for like 25 bucks at auction.
Farmers won't have to sit in their air conditioned tractor cabins much longer. They now have totally remote controlled machines that do nearly everything now. But only the largest of companies can afford them at this time.
I watched a video of a monster machine that not only plowed, but also picked up the dirt, pulverized it, put it back down again as neat and clean as a paved road, but soft dirt of course. It could be set to add nutrients to the soil as it was pulverized, and then the machine could plant the plants in several lines as it moved. One pass across the field and it was plowed, turned into top soil, leveled, with nutrients added, and the plants planted all in on pass.
Another harvester just as large could go through and pick out only the ripe strawberries and actually package them by graded sizes into the little plastic strawberry baskets. They could optionally add the plastic film wrap for over the baskets too, but this one didn't have that.
On a side note, they say automation is taking over jobs, but I wonder if that is truly so.
A farmer and his three sons can only do so much. They hire maybe five other seasonal workers at the appropriate times.
A friend who raises tomatoes they only hire extra help during the harvest season.
Their own family did all the plowing and planting. Their farm is still the same size.
However, they went from planting each plant by hand, one at a time up one row and back down the other, to using a manual planter they had to push themselves. Then they got a little fancier and a little bigger planter, and eventually bought a self-powered planter. It is still the same people doing the work as it has always been. With each new machine, they may have got done a little bit faster, but mostly, rather than speed, it saved their back and knees, since it could be done standing up instead of stooped over moving down to their knees and back up again.
Now they have a machine that does four rows at once, but they still have to load the machine with the small plants that are getting planted. This new machine does add the stakes into the ground for them as it plants the plants. So the only difference it has made is now they have to remove all the stakes at the end of the season to clear the area for the next season. Still the same workers, only they don't have to work as hard or do as much physical labor. Still takes about the same amount of time, just less strenuously is all, maybe a little faster. The downside of the higher tech equipment is they actually earn less money, because of the cost of the equipment and its maintenance. Product sales are the same as always, and it really didn't go up much in ten years. In some cases what they sold for 10 bucks is now 12 bucks, and almost all of those increases had to do with tax increases they had to pay out.
Now if they could afford one of those fancy tomato harvesting machines that only picked the fruit at the proper time, then it would save the the cost of hiring season harvesters. But the machines cost much more than hiring transients, and are usually more reliable, hi hi.
FWIW - Most of these crop pickers only do so for a few years before moving up to something better anyhow, and always for easier work at higher pay. Perhaps as harvesting machine operators?
Re: Electrical Problems
Like any other business the initial investment in capital equipment is a killer. It might take several years to profit from the investment enough to justify it's high cost. In agriculture it's a no win for small time farmers. The equipment costs can never be recovered. Thus they lease the use of somebody else's machine or buy one that is at least twenty-five years old and cheaper than brand new. You can't say there is no price on back breaking work. It's an intangible, of course, but those automated farming machines are not there to look cute. They reduce overall costs and increase profits, otherwise there would be no point to automating. Every small time farmer I talked to claims they are the last in the family line to run the farm. After they die it will be sold off to Big Agra, or some other type of business. The last guy I spoke with is selling his to a hunting club that has millions of dollars they don't know what to do with. LOL
I don't think we can predict the future of farming very accurately, but I have to agree with you that it is changing rapidly. We are doing well in this country where the population is stable, but many other countries in the world are running short of farming acreage. Thus they are doing things like cutting down rain forests or irrigating deserts. Then there are those who just import more from countries like ours. At some point, however, the current system will become unsustainable. There will be more people than we can feed. I've read various figures for where that cut off point is, some as early as an increase of today's population by 2 billion people. Others say it will take 12 or 14 billion earthlings to use up all the supplies. At that point it won't matter how automated things get.
I don't think we can predict the future of farming very accurately, but I have to agree with you that it is changing rapidly. We are doing well in this country where the population is stable, but many other countries in the world are running short of farming acreage. Thus they are doing things like cutting down rain forests or irrigating deserts. Then there are those who just import more from countries like ours. At some point, however, the current system will become unsustainable. There will be more people than we can feed. I've read various figures for where that cut off point is, some as early as an increase of today's population by 2 billion people. Others say it will take 12 or 14 billion earthlings to use up all the supplies. At that point it won't matter how automated things get.
Re: Electrical Problems
I don't know Yogi - the many years I spent in hydroponics and hydroculture, plus the many rooftop hydroponic greenhouses I helped to get established. Although they are now all gone, or moved elsewhere. We were producing more in 120,000 sq. ft. of space, year round, than could be produced seasonally on 1 million sq. ft. of outdoor growing area. The quality was higher, the product more uniform, and in many cases the taste was better due to better nutrient control.
We had lower heating costs than the same size greenhouse built on the ground, since we recaptured lost heat from the buildings we were on top of. Unless it got really cold we didn't need to turn on the supplemental heating plant. Our biggest expense was electric, because we had to extend the daylength during the winter months for certain crops.
One of the installations raised only one thing, head lettuce. Each plant was in a carton about the size of a school milk carton, and they fit in metal channels like a long gutter. The way they were positioned when viewed from one end of the building was like Letter Y's or perhaps V's would be more appropriate. Inside each V were six to eight shelves so all plants received the proper amount of light. Nutrient ran through the channels which kept the plants watered. More complex than that, but it might give you an idea of what they did on that operation. At the far end of the greenhouse, the cartons were touching each other, but as the plants grew they were spaced out further and further, so the other end of the greenhouse the cartons were about 6 inches apart from each other.
The time period for head lettuce growth was 50 days with 12 hours of light per day.
Ready to harvest plants were taken from the end of the channels, the box filled with roots was cut off and ground up for recycling, along with a couple of outer leaves that were removed before the heads were packaged.
Although there were many more in a channel row than 50, for simplicity it worked this way.
When you remove 1 from the harvest end, a new one is planted at the input end, and all the rest move down and pick up a little space between the boxes.
Shipping was to local stores which saved shipping costs. Often we had more than the local stores could handle so some was shipped a little further, but usually by our own trucks.
The biggest difference between the way we operated and the way a farmer operates is they have to plant the entire field, then harvest the entire field. They may work in sections during the growing season. But in their case it is all or none. When there is an overabundance prices are low, when there are none prices are high.
In the case of the way we operated, we had a continuous supply, the same amount ready to harvest, every single day of the year. The daily output was uniform and rarely varied by more than a few dozen heads, which mean as a supplier we were a reliable method for stores to order only the amount they sold per week.
And the main thing is, the price should have stayed the same year round. But because of farmers flooding the market, we too had periods where we had to cut prices, and then make up for that in the months farmers could not produce. But we still had to remain cheaper than imported produce.
And sadly to say, one of our biggest price additions to the cost of the products was the exorbitant taxes our rooftop greenhouses were strapped with. At least farmers have a low tax for the ground they use. But for us, it was considered another floor of an office building and taxed as such.
We had lower heating costs than the same size greenhouse built on the ground, since we recaptured lost heat from the buildings we were on top of. Unless it got really cold we didn't need to turn on the supplemental heating plant. Our biggest expense was electric, because we had to extend the daylength during the winter months for certain crops.
One of the installations raised only one thing, head lettuce. Each plant was in a carton about the size of a school milk carton, and they fit in metal channels like a long gutter. The way they were positioned when viewed from one end of the building was like Letter Y's or perhaps V's would be more appropriate. Inside each V were six to eight shelves so all plants received the proper amount of light. Nutrient ran through the channels which kept the plants watered. More complex than that, but it might give you an idea of what they did on that operation. At the far end of the greenhouse, the cartons were touching each other, but as the plants grew they were spaced out further and further, so the other end of the greenhouse the cartons were about 6 inches apart from each other.
The time period for head lettuce growth was 50 days with 12 hours of light per day.
Ready to harvest plants were taken from the end of the channels, the box filled with roots was cut off and ground up for recycling, along with a couple of outer leaves that were removed before the heads were packaged.
Although there were many more in a channel row than 50, for simplicity it worked this way.
When you remove 1 from the harvest end, a new one is planted at the input end, and all the rest move down and pick up a little space between the boxes.
Shipping was to local stores which saved shipping costs. Often we had more than the local stores could handle so some was shipped a little further, but usually by our own trucks.
The biggest difference between the way we operated and the way a farmer operates is they have to plant the entire field, then harvest the entire field. They may work in sections during the growing season. But in their case it is all or none. When there is an overabundance prices are low, when there are none prices are high.
In the case of the way we operated, we had a continuous supply, the same amount ready to harvest, every single day of the year. The daily output was uniform and rarely varied by more than a few dozen heads, which mean as a supplier we were a reliable method for stores to order only the amount they sold per week.
And the main thing is, the price should have stayed the same year round. But because of farmers flooding the market, we too had periods where we had to cut prices, and then make up for that in the months farmers could not produce. But we still had to remain cheaper than imported produce.
And sadly to say, one of our biggest price additions to the cost of the products was the exorbitant taxes our rooftop greenhouses were strapped with. At least farmers have a low tax for the ground they use. But for us, it was considered another floor of an office building and taxed as such.
Re: Electrical Problems
I mentioned earlier a show I watched on PBS where they featured start up businesses. One of them was a "vertical farm" that in reality was hydroponic and hydroculture. These guys talked as if it was something new and the answer to feeding all the hungry people of the world. I took it all with a grain of salt in that I know what you did for a good part of your life and every new start up thinks they are going to conquer the world regardless of the business they are in. Be that all as it may, the story was very similar to the realities you point out. The crops are unbelievably well controlled and production is about as efficient as one can get. It was highly automated to boot. I have no doubt that one of those tractor trailer farms could out produce a farmer using black dirt of the same volume. I'm not sure who has a greater carbon footprint, but does it matter when you are feeding the hungry masses? I have a feeling those hydroculture farms are plentiful and we are not hearing about them. I think that because I can buy fresh strawberries in December. Why I can't buy fresh peaches in December, however, is still a mystery. I guess trees are a bit more difficult to grow in a hydroponic factory. LOL