Migration Paths

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Kellemora
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Re: Migration Paths

Post by Kellemora » 14 May 2019, 11:16

Speaking of the electric company. They are starting to install SCHMART-METERS. We should have ours in about two weeks to thirty days. I HATE THIS really.
The tag came off my meter years ago, and I planned on pulling the meter to do some work in upgrading my electric box.
Never had the time or funds to do so.
This new meter is supposed to transmit a signal if the power goes out. Have no idea how that is going to work if the power is out because a line is down. Since they will be using the power lines as the signal transmission lines.
But the other deal with this new meter is, they can turn you on and off from the office without sending a man out to pull your meter and put insulators on the pins.
This might be advantageous to them for folks who don't pay their bill.
But it also means a few bad things too. Big Brother could tell them to turn off the power to all who did not comply with some new regulation, like gun registration or something.
Or they could charge different rates for different times of the day too. In other words, track your usage down to the second.
I don't like it one bit!

Speaking of the electrical grid. We essentially do not have a grid down here. The main high power lines are probably on a grid, most places are. But as for as down at the local level, we are not on a grid.
Down here, Power from a sub-station to your house is a single circuit.
Back home in St. Louis County, nearly every street and house was on a small local area grid, and often from two or more different sub-stations.

Take my street here as an example:
The power to my house comes from Sims Road up Valley Drive and supplies all the houses up to my house, but not to my neighbor to the right. His power comes from Chapman Highway and down Valley Drive and supplies all the houses up to my neighbors house.
We were without power so often, while the neighbor still had power, we argued with the electric company to move our house the Chapman Road feed. They wouldn't do that, but they did switch our street to a newer Sims Road sub-station, which helped.

Compare this to my house in Creve Coeur:
The power to my house came down the backyards between Tempo and Flair and ended at my house.
However, this power line was supplied power from three different sub-stations. This means three different feed lines connected to our line, and they were on a grid, so if any line broke or the power went off, we would still have power from the other two sub-stations.

They could easily do that here, by simply connecting the high tension wires from the Sims Road sub-station on my left, to the Chapman Highway sub-station on my right. That way we would still have power when one or the other lost their feed to us.

And yes I do realize that on a grid system, if too many sub-stations go down, it could be too much for the others to carry and the whole shebang can come tumbling down. But there would be safeguards for that, automatic over amperage shut down switches, similar to a remote resetable breaker, like is at each end of our street.
There is a manually resetable breaker at each transformer on our street too, but they have to come out and ride up in the bucket truck to slam it back shut again so we have power.

I guess St. Louis county has redundant sub-stations with enough power to carry a certain amount of grid if one or two fail. But down here, nada, the sub-stations are barely able to keep up with the supply in summer when everyone has their AC turned on.
The voltage drop when the power does come back on is enormous, until all the motors have started back up again, then it comes up to normal.
This is one reason they installed remote resetable breakers at the end of each street. After a power outage, they open all the breakers, get the sub-station fired up, then start closing the breakers one after another to prevent that major voltage drop. Since the breakers require electric to open and close. We think they are more like a relay than a breaker. When the electric goes off, they all fall open, and won't close again until they get a signal to do so. But they can also be tripped like a breaker in the case of a dead short, or over-current draw limit.

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yogi
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Re: Migration Paths

Post by yogi » 14 May 2019, 15:47

As is the case with much of new technology there are pros and cons. The Smart Electric Meter has both. What you suggest about politicians having control over the power you get to your house is something only the liberal Democrats in Tennessee have to worry about. LOL It's truly not likely at all for that kind of thing to happen, not before the 2020 elections anyway. But, the even bigger concern is over what terrorists can do. Foreign agents have and will continue to break into our power network to characterize it. There are military benefits to having such knowledge and there are countries out there which would not hesitate to use it on us. They don't care what political party you belong to nor do they care about the caliber of your gun. All they want to know is what kind of security surrounds your power grid. HINT: none in nearly all cases.

The smart meters do have the capability to record your power usage in great detail. Back in Chicago we were offered a plan that charged us by the minute. Rates change as the loads on the grid changes and if you are using power during a high usage time span you will pay more than if you use power when everybody is asleep. As it goes now, you pay a flat rate regardless of the load on the network. Thus, keeping track of you minute by minute could actually mean a savings on your bill.

Controlling the loads on the grid would also be simple with smart meters (and smart controllers). That too would be a cost savings in that the power loading would be more evenly distributed and any individual station would not have to buy expensive power during a heat wave in August. And, those breakers you talk about would be replaced by remote devices that do not require a crew to come out and connect you again. The end goal, of course, is to totally automate the grid so that they can cut back on the number of people needed to maintain it. This is bad if you are a lineman, but great if you are a cost conscious consumer.
'

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Kellemora
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Re: Migration Paths

Post by Kellemora » 15 May 2019, 09:50

One of my wife's cousins who worked for the power company was killed by a high tension line that arced a great distance further than it should have.
In any case, before that happened, he worked for a power company in North Carolina, before taking a job here near his parents and the rest of the family.
When the subject of power transmission would come up, all he could say was TN was hundreds of years behind NC in how they do things, mainly how they go about distributing the power.
They basically did not change anything after moving from hydroelectric and steam plants to nuclear. All they did was tie the nuclear feed to the existing power infrastructure without making the necessary changes first. So ever since, it has just been fix one problem after another and without upgrading at the same time.

One thing that always bugged the heck out of me, is when on TV they show 1/4 of the country without electric because the grid went down. I've studied how power is distributed several times, and using a grid is great, but when a section goes down it shouldn't drag down 1/4 of the country with it. Especially when you consider each small area is usually independent and could detach from the grid if they have a failure, and not drag down the rest of the country with them.

I think one of the problems is everything is now controlled by computers, and the programs are not designed to handle problems very well. Heck one EMF strike and the whole country will be off-line.

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yogi
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Re: Migration Paths

Post by yogi » 15 May 2019, 12:24

You are correct about the attempt to put the power grid under computer control. Those computers, however, are the targets of those foreign agents who are trying to learn as much as they can about what we are doing. It's not right for a huge block of the country to go down, and I can assure you that it was not designed to do that. There typically is some outside intervention when you read about those major outages.

Tennessee could be backwards, but it's probably that way out of choice. You can be proactive and upgrade the network so that failures don't occur, or you can fix the failures as they arise. Somebody should be doing a cost analysis to show which approach is better, but I'm guessing that doesn't happen in every case.

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Kellemora
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Re: Migration Paths

Post by Kellemora » 16 May 2019, 11:29

Part of getting my electricians license was having a basic understanding of distribution system, although we would never use it ourselves unless we got a job in distribution.
As I said, we only had to learn the basics. From the power plant, the voltage is stepped up through a transformer then sent out over the main transmission lines. A substation taps into the transmission line and uses stepping down transformers to get down to three primary voltages distributed to customers. A subtransmission user gets around 26kv, a primary customer gets around 12kv, and a residential customer gets two 110v one line on each phase of a two phase circuit.

An interesting point is what we call linear or direct wiring is technically called radial distribution, and what we call a grid is network distribution. It is called radial because the wires go from point A, the substation, out like the spokes of wheel or branches of a tree to the customers. Network is more like a tic-tac-toe board, or sheet of graph paper with a few lines missing here and there, hi hi.

Since you brought up cost analysis. It takes a whole lot more wire to supply a distribution area using the radial system, which has no backup behind it. All customers on the radial system are fed from a single substation. The substation being the trunk of the tree, and the customers the leaves on the branches.

On the networked system, there is usually two or more substations working together. For simplicity, lets say we have substation A to the West, and substation B to the North. Substation A feeds the East West main distribution lines, and substation B feeds the North South main distribution lines. These two major sets of distribution lines cover the entire service area. Customers are fed off these main distribution lines through local transformers. A whole lot less wire, and for an area to be without electricity, both substations would have to be down. Perhaps from their feed going down.

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yogi
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Re: Migration Paths

Post by yogi » 16 May 2019, 15:05

I am guessing here, but if everything were run perfectly and as efficiently as it could be, the cost of running this entire country would be in the millions and not in the billion/trillion dollar range. About half the work force, maybe more, would be without jobs if everything ran a max performance. That could be a problem regardless when the robots finally take over our society.

I understand the concept of networks vs direct feeds. They both have their place. I also understand why the AC voltage on cross country lines has to be stepped up so high. I once met a fellow who worked for a company that made those insulators you see under the high tension lines to keep them isolated from the steel structure that holds them up. He claimed that each ring was built to insulate 10KV. So if you see a cross country power line that has six rings of insulators, it's carrying something less than 60KV. What scares me is that I've seen stacks of insulators up in the 10-12 region. That's 120KV of AC humming it's way through those wires. If you get close enough, your hair would stand on end. :lol:

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Kellemora
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Re: Migration Paths

Post by Kellemora » 17 May 2019, 11:00

Just for grins, when we replaced all the fluorescent tubes in our office each year, I would take all those we took out and bring them over to a park near my brothers old house.
High tension wires ran across the park on super tall towers.
We would carry those lamps around until we found a spot where they would light up,
then stand them up like tepee's taping the tops of 3 together so they would stay standing.
Move around a bit until we found another hot spot and did the same thing there.
Before you say something about the glass, ALL of the ones we used had the plastic protector sleeve over them, and factory sealed to the metal ends, so if a kid or somebody broke one, all the glass would be inside the plastic tube.
Just looked on-line so you could see what kind of lamp I'm talking about.
https://www.amazon.com/Shatter-Resistan ... =hi&sr=1-1

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yogi
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Re: Migration Paths

Post by yogi » 17 May 2019, 12:35

I have heard that story about free light in the past but never heard about shatterproof florescents. It makes sense, I suppose, but the only time I ever broke one was on purpose inside a trash can. You would think with all the free RF energy floating around that somebody would have figured a way to tap into it for something useful, such as lighting up florescent tubes. Too obvious, maybe.

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Kellemora
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Re: Migration Paths

Post by Kellemora » 18 May 2019, 10:56

Back when Cable TV was analog, I could get it free just by placing a loop antenna near one of their connection boxes. No physical contact with the cable, their box, or the utility pole. Just a fiberglass rod holding my loop a couple of feet in front of the box. If they don't put a cap on one of the connectors, it works. But if a service guy sees us doing that, they make sure to cap each connection, hi hi.
No longer works now that they went digital. Here, cable TV now comes over the Internet.
I know, same cable, but it is sent differently than HD digital cable now.
Comcast Cable is Cable TV - Comcast Xfinity TV is Internet TV over Cable Internet.

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yogi
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Re: Migration Paths

Post by yogi » 18 May 2019, 14:20

Cable networks are typically fiber optics. Your home Internet connection could be anything and most likely not fiber. Thus there is a technical limit to what you can see over the Internet. It boils down to bandwidth which old guys like myself have a hard time seeing the difference. I'm happy with VGA. LOL

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Kellemora
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Re: Migration Paths

Post by Kellemora » 19 May 2019, 10:58

I never understood why or how the term Bandwidth came to be used with wired communications.
As a Ham Radio Operator, Bandwidth is the width of a signal on a given band. Also how wide the legally usable band is.
There is also Bandspread but that wouldn't apply here.

I do know that different frequencies can be used over wire now, about the same way as over the airwaves.
How wide each signal is at a given frequency would be the Bandwidth, and also limit how many different frequencies would fit into the band they are using.

Without making it more complicated than it is. Let's say your Internet communications are running on Channel C over the Cable. No matter how much data you feed through Channel C, it would not be bleeding over to Channels B or D, because your Bandwidth remains constant.

So I'm at a total loss when they start charging folks by the amount of Bandwidth they are using.

I think they picked the wrong word to steal to use for themselves! It's illogical!

No matter how much data I pump through Channel C, it is not going to change the Bandwidth one iota.

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yogi
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Re: Migration Paths

Post by yogi » 19 May 2019, 14:42

Bandwidth has more than one meaning. It's one thing to ham radio operators and something entirely different to Internet users. The meaning is derived from the context and popular usage.

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Kellemora
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Re: Migration Paths

Post by Kellemora » 20 May 2019, 12:32

Considering the term Bandwidth has been used since the days of Marconi, and by every radio station, and by every TV station, and by every Radio Operator regardless of what service they fall under.

The newcomer on the block, the Internet, is not only stealing existing words to use for themselves, but doing so with an entirely different on most confusing meaning.

Dictionaries are supposed to change the definitions of words based on popular usage.
They do so for a lot of words, but the flat out refuse to change other words which are rarely used properly, and always to mean something else.

Here is an example of two different words that had different meanings, that they changed the meaning for both, so they basically mean the same thing in their dictionaries. Trinity and Triunity. These two words used to have very explicit definitions that were accurate, now the definition reads about the same for both.

Here is an example of two different words that have been used improperly for over a century, yet the dictionaries refuse to change their meanings around. Less and Fewer. Fewer is a number you can count, while Less means an amount you cannot count. Eg. There are fewer bullets in my clip than yesterday, a countable amount. There is less and on the beach after yesterdays heavy rainstorms, an uncountable amount of grains of sand on the beach.
Go to WalMart, they have registers that say 10 Items or Less.
Or you will hear, I have less than a dollar in change in my pocket (they can get by with this one).
But not, I have less coins in my pocket than needed to make up a dollar (this one is incorrect).

There are so many words in the dictionary that should be changed based on popular usage that they refuse to change, when compared to the words they decided to change that should never have been changed.

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yogi
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Re: Migration Paths

Post by yogi » 20 May 2019, 14:42

Well, I'll be damned ... there are three (3) dictionary defined definitions for the word bandwidth. I only knew of two.

bandwidth defined
: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bandwidth

You can thank modern advertising for bastardizing the English language. Some words simply change meaning over time, such as Google, which started out as a brand name - a proper noun. But, lo and behold, it has become a verb too. :mrgreen:

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Kellemora
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Re: Migration Paths

Post by Kellemora » Yesterday, 10:12

The definition they give for telecommunications aka Internet, still doesn't make sense, and the sample sentences make it even more confusing.
In other words, they didn't DEFINE bandwidth as associated to communications very well.
I did pick up from one of the example sentences that it is basically a measurement of the number of signals over a specific time. Like how many gallons water flow through a hose in 5 minutes, which as we all know is Flowrate, not Bandwidth.

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yogi
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Re: Migration Paths

Post by yogi » Yesterday, 11:38

Bandwidth in Internet talk is the number of bits downloaded over your connection. It's just a simple and easy to understand way to explain a technical concept to people who have no idea what they are talking about.

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Kellemora
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Re: Migration Paths

Post by Kellemora » Today, 11:47

Everyone understands kWh or mWh, so why didn't they use MegaBitsHour

Your Internet connection has a Flowrate of 30 mbps but Bandwidth apparently means total amount, more like a Water Meter measure the number of cu. ft. of water you used. Why didn't they just simply call it BitMeter instead of Bandwidth?

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yogi
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Re: Migration Paths

Post by yogi » Today, 12:55

The answer to your questions is that the Internet was invented by bit-heads, not mechanical engineers with linguistic proficiency.

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