Ski By Fire

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yogi
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Re: Ski By Fire

Post by yogi » 29 Apr 2019, 11:59

I've dealt with electronic engineers for 36 years and a few electrician tradesmen as well. The focus is different in each profession, but the physics remains the same. I think you're doing quite well for being out of it the past 4 decades. It's only been 15 years since I retired and I estimate my retention of what I knew back then is about 10%. LOL

FWIW: we had some AC wiring installed in this house shortly after we moved in. I didn't get into a deep discussion with the electrician but I did ask about the "neutral" wire problem I have. He explained it pretty much the way you did. I truly think there is some confusion in the trades about "grounding" a circuit. It doesn't have the same meaning as I learned it to be. Regardless, it won't work unless the laws of physics are obeyed.

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Kellemora
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Re: Ski By Fire

Post by Kellemora » 30 Apr 2019, 14:42

True that Yogi!

I used to work in really old historical homes with knob and tube wiring. My main job was to bring the knob and tube up to code, while still keeping it the historical knob and tube, no new Romex anywhere.
Most folks don't realize the original way knob and tube was installed was a single Hot wire throughout, and only the Neutral was fused. This was later changed so that both Hot and Neutral were fused, which was just as dangerous. Then all the circuits were reversed so the once continuous Hot wire became the Neutral, and the individual Neutrals became the fused Hot wires.
And to complicate the issue, as houses were upgraded, but still knob and tube, you could find all three versions in the same house. Talk about a birds nest to untangle, worse than a backlash on a bait casting reel.
I learned to simply kill every wire first, then use knob and tube pairs for each circuit so it was similar to a Romex wired home, and a whole lot safer too.
Although all the wiring is still knob and tube, it must meet all the current new electrical codes except one. You were allowed to make Western Union splices provided they were soldered and taped with six turns thick of friction tape, and not hidden inside a wall.
There were a few cases where we had to install grounding type outlets, including GFCI outlets, to meet code in certain rooms. Although quite expensive, they make historically accurate grounding type outlets, and a special isolated GFCI box if we could not use a GFCI breaker, meaning we had to keep the original fuse box accurate.

Some of the tricks I learned doing knob and tube, I put to use when updating old two wired Romex homes, so the inspectors test units would read properly. You can't just connect the neutral to the ground or it defeats the purpose of the ground. But there is a gas filled device that isolates all current from a neutral line so you can create an earth ground through the neutral wire with no danger of current getting to the grounded parts of the switch, receptacle, or other devices. They were not cheap, but a whole lot cheaper than running ground wires to all the outlets. That being said, depending where the outlets were located, sometimes you could run a ground wire to an earth ground stake outside the house.

The whole thing about the Green Ground Wire Circuit is actually a farce.
Take an electric drill as an example, with a steel or aluminum case.
Now if the Hot wire breaks and touches the case, you could get electrocuted.
Thus the purpose for the secondary ground. It supposedly creates a dead short. But does it really?
Consider this scenario first.
If the Neutral wire breaks from the motor and touches the case, no harm done, there is no current on the neutral wire.
But let's say the Neutral wire breaks were the wire enters the drill, and/or the insulation wears off from vibration, and the Neutral wire is now touching the case, thus closing the circuit for the motor.
Whether you have a Green Ground or not, that Case is going to be Hot while the motor is running.
Plus Food For Thought here. If Neutral goes back to the fuse box, and is Grounded to earth ground inside the fuse box, AND the Green Ground Wire goes back to the fuse box, and is Grounded to earth ground inside the fuse box, usually to the same LUG the Neutral bar is grounded to. What real purpose does the Green Wire really serve? Other than it is isolated from the Neutral wire at the device end of the circuit, so technically no current flows through it, ever. Except in the scenario with the drill I presented above.

Back when everything from appliances to tools were made entirely of metal, in some cases, the Green Ground could possibly shut down the device as a dead short and pop the fuse or trip the breaker.
But now with nearly everything made of plastic, and how devices are wired internally to prevent accidental connections to the case or frame, what is the purpose of the Green Ground Wire? I can't think of any!

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yogi
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Re: Ski By Fire

Post by yogi » 01 May 2019, 09:01

The answer to your question is that you and I think of grounding in different ways. To me the (green) earth ground is not the same as a chassis ground, nor what is called a neutral wire. I don't know how you wired up all those houses, but I do know how current flows.

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Kellemora
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Re: Ski By Fire

Post by Kellemora » 01 May 2019, 10:22

Depends on what era you are talking about Yogi.
The old metal TV chassis back in the tube days were the Neutral part of the circuit.
Almost any component in the TV that went to ground was tied to the Chassis.
Later, when they began adding Line Isolation Transformers to power the TVs, it didn't matter if you plugged the plug in the right way or backwards, the Chassis had it's own ground and would not end up hot, sorta, because it was still hot in all cases if the TV was on.
I hate to say, I forgot how grounding the chassis prevented the chassis from being hot. I just remember it wasn't a problem in later years.

All of the video game machines, and gaming machines I ever worked on, besides having Line Isolation Transformers, also had an earth ground to each exposed metal component, such as the one arm bandit handle, the chrome decorative tin pieces, etc. Everything metal was connected to an earth ground, and totally separate from the electronics inside the machines.
Whatever I once knew about working on these contraptions I lost when I had an epilepsy attack, and along with it, my job.

Basic house wiring I've never forgotten, well, except for all the codes which I had to keep up with I no longer know anymore, unless they were the tried and true basics that never changed.
It's like plumbing or carpentry you learned hands-on over many years, that kind of stuff don't get erased from my headbone.
But anything you have to keep up with, or learn from books, or learn through study, or daily use, I lose whether I have an attack or not. Use it or lose it! But sometimes, even stuff I use daily, if it had to be learned and kept current, BANG, I lose all of that with every attack. Glad they only came about once every five years.

Speaking of which. My doctor says I have outwitted my own fate.
I've been in Stage Three COPD now for three years longer than his life expectancy charts claim I should have lived.
When I had my appointment yesterday, he said I could easily go another three to five years, although he don't understand why. Over 80% of his patients with COPD never crossed the life expectancy tables.
He said I should have been on oxygen at least two years ago, but I'm still not on any.
Although my AM O2 on rising from bed is low, often under 88, that is from phlegm blocking my O2 absorption.
The only bad thing is it causes my heart to keep speeding up, often up to 90 or 100 before I wake up in the morning.
My biggest problem is I retain CO2 and there is nothing to do for that except pursed lip breathing exercises.
So now, when I wake up in the middle of the night to go to the John, I spend about ten minutes doing extra breathing exercises, and hopefully don't wake up too much I find it hard to fall back asleep again.
And little Susie Homemaker is setting her alarm for 6am to wake me up and get me sitting up to breathe for a bit before I can go back to sleep for an hour. Dang her hide, hi hi.

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Re: Ski By Fire

Post by yogi » 01 May 2019, 11:36

My "formal education" in electronics was taking a home study course designed to get me my first class commercial license. I passed the course work but failed the FCC test. LOL The good news is that I got my ham license because of it and the job at Motorola. The first few years there I did grunt work on the production line, but all the years later I worked side by side with engineers in a lob of one sort or another. The bulk of what I learned is from them, but each year we had to take in house courses as well. We had OSHA and a few other busy body inspectors visit our facilities unannounced from time to time so that it was incumbent upon me to know how to wire up a rack full of test equipment so that nobody would get killed by touching it. That green wire, supposedly, was the life saver.

My last living uncle had heart valves replaced shortly after he retired at age 55. His doctor, like yours, was amazed at how well he was doing at age 75 given that the valves have a 13 year life expectancy. He was over 80 when he died and it wasn't due to bad valves. So, I'm not surprised to read that you are beating the actuarial statistics for COPD. Mom was diagnosed with it, asthma, and she too lived beyond the expected range. However, the last couple years of her life she did have to carry around an O2 bottle. I sit in awe when I read about people who beat the odds that way because I knew of a fellow at Motorola who died (on the production line) of a heart attack at age 27. WTF is THAT all about?

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Kellemora
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Re: Ski By Fire

Post by Kellemora » 02 May 2019, 13:31

I too have worked with guys who died at a young age from heart attacks, usually because the aorta splits open for some reason, even though they did not have a history of high blood pressure.

My sister-in-laws step-daughters husband passed away recently, also young, with the exact same heart attack I survived.
But then, the only reason I survived was I was already at the hospital when mine took place, and he was more than a half hour away from the hospital and also had to wait for an ambulance to arrive. He was gone by the time they got there.

When I was in high school, one of my home room classmates dropped dead at his desk while in another class, history I think.
We all wanted to know why, because he was a really healthy guy.
After a few days we learned it was not a heart attack, but a blockage to his brain.
Then a couple of days later they changed it to a burst blood vessel to his brain.
We didn't believe it because a stroke usually doesn't kill someone instantly.
But that is what the final determination was, a massive cerebral hemorrhage.
Someone in his class told us he didn't make a sound, just leaned over on his desk, onto his arms, as if resting. Everyone thought he was just sound asleep is all.

It's really a shame when younger folks just up and die.

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yogi
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Re: Ski By Fire

Post by yogi » 02 May 2019, 14:58

When I was a kid I figured only old people die. I guess that's true in most cases, but in the last 20 years or so I've been hearing and reading about a lot of 20-somethings having disabling diseases that were once reserved only for old codgers like myself. The world is moving at a much faster pace these days so that more stress is being applied mentally and physically. The weakest parts break under stress, and that might explain a lot of the premature deaths.

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Re: Ski By Fire

Post by Kellemora » 04 May 2019, 10:57

My paternal grandparents, dad's brothers and sisters, three died on the same day from scarlet fever. One of my uncles who survived was left deaf and dumb, but regained some of his hearing, and learned to talk but always sounded like a drunk.

About the time they finally prevented many childhood deaths, it seems other things came along to take their place.

I think they put stuff in our foods to make us sick so we support the drug industry.

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Re: Ski By Fire

Post by yogi » 04 May 2019, 13:56

I don't know about the drug company conspiracy, but I have a suspicion about the population in general. I think there is an optimal number of people who can live on this planet comfortably. Given the density in certain corners of the world, I'd speculate that the optimal conditions have been exceeded. As a consequence, the population is culling itself naturally. I'm also convinced the life expectancy of humans is not intended to be as high as it is being experienced in our times. Now THAT I can see being related to drugs we have invented. My guess is that population density and longevity are the main factors working against our survival.

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Re: Ski By Fire

Post by Kellemora » 05 May 2019, 11:04

Could be Yogi, but I've seen urban sprawl, and vast wide open spaces.
Also have been to China on buying trips a couple of times.
And as densely populated as China is, they also wide open unused spaces, some of which was used to build massive infrastructures that go unused.
I lived at OakBrook, ILL, just outside of Hinsdale, for about six months. Where the urban sprawl was double the density of St.Louis. I've seen St. Louis County go from mostly farmland to almost wall to wall houses, yet drive a few miles further west and nothing until you near Kansas City.

Medical advancements have allowed many to live longer, as has certain drugs and other factors.
I know the charts keep showing we live longer, but then too, a lot of people lived a long life into their hundreds in the old days too. They were just lucky to not get shot, gored by a bull, or catch a deadly disease.
We got some of the diseases in check, and folks with once deadly medical problems often can recover with an operation.
So this will cause an increase in the average of the total population.
But is anyone who is healthy really living longer than their ancestors who remained healthy?

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Re: Ski By Fire

Post by yogi » 05 May 2019, 12:43

Our quality of life is something other than the mechanism to which I refer is killing us off. Taking human diseases as an aggregate force in our environment, I'm suggesting it's potency and frequency of occurrence increases with the global population. While certain epidemics may be localized they do not remain so. A good example is influenza which travels globally. Cancer is normal cells gone wild for some yet to be determined reason. My instincts say it's a self-regulating mechanism intended to keep the numbers of people at sustainable levels. Thus, statistically, the more people on earth the greater the likelihood any one of them will be afflicted by a human born disease. At some point there is a balance between disease and our ability to fight it off. I'm suggesting we passed that point and no Big Pharma is a suitable foe for nature.

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Re: Ski By Fire

Post by Kellemora » 06 May 2019, 10:12

I just read an article the other day that said city folks live longer than country folks.
It wasn't until I read the entire article that I understood how they could say that.
People in cities have poorer health than those in the country, and get many more diseases and illnesses.
However, city folks have immediate access to medical facilities and medicines, whereas country folks, due to the distance to medical care, will often try to weather out what ails them until they are forced to go to the doctor, and by then their condition may have advanced to a non-reversible state.
As far as mental health goes, country folks have greater mental health than city folks.
Income range also plays a huge role in maintaining ones health.

On another topic: Why does one person get cancer and another does not, when they were both exposed to the same contaminants at the same location for the same number of years?

I personally have believed that it takes a combination of around five different triggers to be activated to get cancer.
Most of us already have three of those triggers flipped on. Stress, Diet, and Weight.
The other two are Exposure, and the condition of our Immune System.

John A and Jim B both worked at Fast Shoes Auto Brake for 16 years.
They used air guns to blow out the brake drums, which were loaded with asbestos dust from the asbestos brake shoes of the era.
John A, a non-smoker, got lung cancer, quit work, and died within 4 years at the age of 38.
Jim B, a heavy smoker, continued to work at the same job for 25 years and retired.
Jim B did get emphysema around the time he turned 65, but still lived to be 81 years old, and remained fairly healthy.

John A lived a very stressful life, his four kids drove him crazy, he lived payday to payday, was always a day late and a dollar short most of his life, ate junk food and was only a little overweight.
Jim B was an easy going fellow, three kids who helped with family chores, he had a small nest egg because he saved a little of his salary each week. He was a tall slim fellow who brought his own lunch from home, and they also had a garden at home which he tended to in the evenings after work and on weekends.

That being said, my slim and trim younger sister died of brain cancer about five years ago.
But she too was always finding herself in stressful situations, and ate junk food most of the time.
She had several different jobs over the years, an airline stewardess for several, started a pet sitting business which caused her a lot of stress, which led to drinking and casino gambling.

Then there is my brother, he's always been overweight, ran a very stressful business, but always ate right, no junk food. I don't recall him ever being sick a day in his life, except for the common cold, never anything serious. He did have to downsize his business a couple of times, which I'm sure added to the stress factor. But he's still as healthy as an ox. Better than I am in many ways.

Sometimes, it just makes no sense at all. Like my fiancee who never smoked, never worked out of the home, had a moderately well to do husband, until he died anyhow, probably from stress. She never let anyone smoke in her house and rarely left the house except for grocery shopping.
Every time she went to the doctor, they told her to quit smoking. She never smoked.
Somehow, she managed to get Black Lung Disease, but that's not what killed her. She got a rare disease called and I'll spell this wrong for sure, A-Typical Geyon Barrete. This disease crippled her and put her in her grave within a couple of years.
My personal opinion of how she got black lung disease was because she always had several candles burning in her house 24/7. Candles, especially styrene candles, which is what most candles are, put out one heck of a lot of soot, and heavy oil laden particulates in the air. There was more oily residue on her walls and ceiling than you find in a heavy smokers house. The air filter to her furnace and AC was changed every month, and it was always black, not tan or brown like from dust, but black and sometimes even sticky. This is why I say it had to be all those candles.

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Re: Ski By Fire

Post by yogi » 06 May 2019, 12:00

I don't think there is an identified causal relationship between the mind and the body, but there is a generally accepted idea that a healthy mind will bring on a healthy body, and vice versa. The "mind" in this case is one's attitude and emotions. These things originate within the human organ known as the brain but the mind is separate and apart from the brain. My point is to concur that the mind and the body seem to work in tandem. We may not have a lot of control over the random events in life, but we certainly do have control over how we respond to them. The responses often involve emotions and thus the stress to which you refer. It's perfectly reasonable to suggest that a stressful mind will affect the health of the body. The specific disease brought on by stress varies as does the degree of stress required to produce the negative effect. That threshold is not understood nor is it recognized as a measurable factor in one's life. We all know it's there, but we don't know why or what breaks when the threshold is exceeded. Well, not until it's too late. That threshold may be something genetic, or not. It seems to be lowered as population density increases. Thus more people becoming ill and dying off as a result.

Whether there is an illness threshold or not floating around in our population, all the things you mention, and more, contribute to our demise. Given that there are so many negative influence upon our general well being, it makes sense to maintain as healthy a lifestyle as we can. That in many cases requires a conscious effort that a lot of people are not willing to exert.

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Re: Ski By Fire

Post by Kellemora » 07 May 2019, 10:35

You hit the nail on the head there Yogi!

I've read stories of terminally ill folks who have managed to cure themselves using the power of their mind.
At least that's what they claim. Doctors just say she was lucky and it went into remission on its own.
And of course the Churches claim divine intervention, hi hi.

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Re: Ski By Fire

Post by yogi » 07 May 2019, 11:56

Well, mom was pronounced terminal in ICU with no more than 10 days to live. She was not the most popular woman on earth, but she was well liked by a lot of "believers" who prayed for her. Mom laughed at the doctors, but those monitors that were attached to her didn't lie - or I don't think they did. She survived for nearly three years after that pronouncement. Not being a praying type of individual, I found it hard to accept the possibility that all those people who wanted mom to live, and prayed for it, might have had some effect. Talk about group therapy. :mrgreen:

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Re: Ski By Fire

Post by Kellemora » 08 May 2019, 10:13

Personally, I wouldn't think God would do anything half-assed, meaning if He was going to heal, he would heal, period.
That being said, we do not know how powerful our minds really are.
What type of healing energy do we put out when thinking about someones illness?
Get a whole group of people praying for someones healing, might kick in the mind over matter and produce enough energy to make an affect on the person who needs healing help. But it is rarely ever enough and never usually complete.

A partial healing I would attribute to the power of multiple minds working together.
A complete healing, well, is it? And if so, what caused it? A higher source?

Heck, our whole universe could be in an old shoebox in the corner of some aliens closet for all we know.

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Re: Ski By Fire

Post by yogi » 08 May 2019, 16:12

There is a whole school of thought centered around the concept of God being perfect. You hint at it when you suggest God would not do anything half way, or less than perfect. If that argument were correct, then there would be no need for Him to send down his son as an emissary, now would there? He "made" us in his image and likeness. Does that mean we are the epitome of perfection? I think not.

Another thing I like to ponder is the mind. Exactly what is it? There are those who say all of our human experience and awareness is just a chemical reaction inside the brain. Well that's about as inspiring as is the thought of us evolving from monkeys, but it is a very popular concept in the scientific world. Then, too, the mind could be something external which is using the body for it's own purposes. In that case the limits of the mind truly are unknowable.

We know about the "will" to live from many anecdotal accounts of survivors. This is mostly a self-healing proposition, but can the combined wills of many people also promote life? If so that would be the benefit of praying. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi has a method of transcendental meditation that can be directed toward a specific cause, such as ending wars. All we need is enough people praying at the same time so he says, and voila. Peace and harmony for millennia to come. Well, I don't know about the Maharishi, but his idea is consistent with those stories people tell about willing themselves, or others, to live. Exactly what that will is will likely remain an eternal mystery.

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Re: Ski By Fire

Post by Kellemora » 09 May 2019, 11:15

He gave man Free Will, else we would be like animals or robots, meaningless.
We have the choice to do right or wrong, advance or decline our knowledge.
And don't forget, man used to live 700+ years.

I consider our brain like a transceiver. It has it's basic operational functions that run our bodies.
It may store some information in ROM, maybe a little in RAM, but most of what we learn, see, hear, and want to remember is simply transmitted. A transmitted signal can have various output power levels, a traumatic event in our life may produce the strongest signal, while remembering a phone number only long enough to dial it, may have a very low powered signal.
When we need to remember something, we turn on our receiver portion of our brain and search for it. If it was recently transmitted, or transmitted at high power, we will recall it easily. But if it was transmitted at low power and enough time has elapsed, the signal may have faded to low for us to recover it.
And the reason we can recall things from childhood is not because they were transmitted at high power, but rather, we recall them from time to time and this causes them to be retransmitted again.
In some cases of low signals that we cannot normally receive back again easily, something will job our memory, which allows us to retune to that events transmission frequency and pull it back in, perhaps a little hazily.

On the last topic, if you think you can, you can, or at least attempt to do it, and with practice and hard work, accomplish your task. But if you think you can't, and since you know you can't, you will never try, and therefore will never be able to do it.
I still say the mind is a powerful machine and we do not know what it is capable of achieving.

Twice in my life I've met folks with photographic memory. One was an artist who could view a complex scene for exactly one minute, then turn around and draw the entire scene without missing a single detail. I think he might have been a hoax actually, and memorized a series of about four or five drawings from rote repetition of many years of practice. He did a show at the Kirkwood Community Center a couple of times.
The other fellow was only around 19 to 20 years old and could view up to around 30 pages of a document and sit down and retype that document nearly perfectly. He might miss a superscript number, or end a sentence on the wrong word, especially if it was hyphenated. But as far as the words go, that part was perfect, word for word. But he had to type it all down right away or he would forget it. So what he read didn't last for long. He laughs when scientists say there is no such thing. He also could no longer do it after he turned about 22 or a little older. Totally lost the ability.

And I can't close without saying something about my Aunt Mary. She knew the birth date, graduation date, anniversary date, including their wives or husbands dates, their children and their dates. For nearly every family past and present. She never made a mistake until she got very old, then was only off by a day or two on a few long deceased folks.
She was also our family genealogist before she turned the job over to me, the only one in the family who would take it over for her. I quickly found out why she did make a couple mistakes in her instant response to a date, there were legal documents in her files, and also ones I obtained on my own, that gave different dates also. Some legal documents we can assume were a purposeful error, like their age when they joined the service, they may have claimed to be a year older than they really were. But when you have the original birth certificate showing one date, and a death certificate showing another birth date, and the date on the tombstone does not match the birth or death date, which one is right?
In cases like this, we usually use the birth certificate birth date as accurate, and the death date is taken from the death certificate. Marriage dates are often confused with the date they obtained the license, not the date the wedding took place, and then the recorded date is usually sometime after the wedding date.
Aunt Mary argued a blue streak over a particular birth date for years regarding one of her cousins. They would stick his birth certificate in front of her, she would look at it say flat out, it is wrong. He was born at 4:30am on Sunday morning, I know, I was there, and missed church because of it.
Come to find out a couple of years later she was right. The doctor who made out the birth certificate two or three weeks after the fact from his notepad, is who made the error. He only turned in his certificate data like once a month, and apparently skipped a blank page in his notebook and wrote another child on Tuesday ahead of the one born on Sunday, so used the Tuesday date. Once it was discovered, both kids got amended, or delayed birth certificates. And then along comes Aunt Mary with See I told you so, hi hi.

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Re: Ski By Fire

Post by yogi » 09 May 2019, 16:42

How the mind works in every detail has yet to be determined. As I pointed out, there is no consensus regarding the definition of the mind to begin with. Memory isn't exactly well understood either but they do know certain regions of the brain are responsible for certain types of memories and feelings. It's pretty much a chemical process wherein the composition of the memory cells change which in turns relates to retention of certain experiences. A lot of things interact to cause a memory. It's not binary as you would know an eeprom to be, for example. It's more like fuzzy logic and neural networks working together with inputs from our sensory organs. Those inputs are somehow mixed in the brain to form recognizable associations. We know a baseball is different than a grasshopper, for example, because the mix of inputs about each produced different results.

Electric current has an effect on how the brain functions and there are such things as brainwaves. They do get transmitted beyond the confines of the brain itself, but not very far. Far enough to measure but that's about it. Memory recall is recreation of the original experience but without all the details available in a live performance. Thus old memories are recollections of recollections of the original event. Details do get lost each time we recall an event and store it back for future reference.

Why do some people have better recall than others? You would be rich and famous if you had the answer to that. LOL They say a photographic memory can't happen, but then they say there is no such thing as ESP too. There is a lot yet to be learned about the mind and the brain.

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Re: Ski By Fire

Post by Kellemora » 10 May 2019, 12:27

I was in a study once where the examiner would show us an image for a split second, and then ask us to write down what we saw. These were simple things like a lawn chair, basketball post with net, a car, a truck, a bicycle, a table, etc.
Almost all of us wrote down the same answers.
But THEN, when he put the pictures back up again, one by one and left them up there for a long time. What our minds though they saw, and what the pictures really were, was amazingly different.
What we saw as an Andarondac type wood lawn chair, turned out to be an office building.
Needless to say, we were most surprised that none of us saw what was really there.

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