Rock And Roll

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Kellemora
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Re: Rock And Roll

Post by Kellemora » 30 Aug 2018, 13:54

Well, the aluminum ingots are as dense as possible, while the bin of ash is probably loose and not compressed. That could be the reason the the stack of filled bins appeared to be about 1/8th of the racks of aluminum ingots.

As far as plastics go, the problem is, there are several different types of plastics.
If they can be kept separated as to types, then they can be recycled into the same or similar products.
But most plastic waste is a mixture of plastics, so can only be used to make things where it don't matter. Like fake lumber.

PET plastic, like most bottles are made from, is fully recyclable, provided the CAPS are not added to the mix. Also the little ring that stays on the bottle when you remove the cap has to be removed too.

Now it seems to me, that even if all the different plastics were mixed together, that some type of system could be used to separate the plastic after it is already all melted together, sorta like a refinery so to speak. Since each type of plastic is of a different density, and/or has different properties, it sure seems like it could be isolated into the individual types.
But at what cost?
I don't have it at my fingertips, but I once looked up how many mylar grocery bags could be made from a single ounce of the polyester plastic, it was an unbelievable amount.
Ironically, it takes MORE OIL to make Paper Bags than Plastic Bags, and Paper costs more to ship.
Here is an informative article about that very subject.

https://www.nashvillewraps.com/blog/200 ... al-numbers

Most of our local stores now use biodegradable plastic bags made from renewable resources like corn starch.

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pilvikki
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Re: Rock And Roll

Post by pilvikki » 30 Aug 2018, 16:13

here most people use reusable bags, but if you get caught without, you can generally buy heavy shopping bags for something like $3. alternative: toss it all back into the buggy and trot it out to your car, where your bags likely are lounging.
hemp is also popular for bags, but i don't like them as they're not very roomy, and get wet in a rain. on the other hand, you can wash them with your laundry.

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yogi
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Re: Rock And Roll

Post by yogi » 30 Aug 2018, 18:42

The discount grocery chain Aldi does not provide bags for your purchases. They have a pile of flimsy boxes if you care to use them, but most people don't. They bring their own bags or do what you say, i.e., just put it in the cart loose and dump it into the boot of your car. My Saturn actually has netting attached to the walls of it's trunk just for this purpose.

The argument against plastic bags is that they are not biodegradable even if they can be recycled. Eventually there will be more plastic bags than dirt if we keep going the way we are.
Last edited by yogi on 31 Aug 2018, 14:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Kellemora
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Re: Rock And Roll

Post by Kellemora » 31 Aug 2018, 12:35

Plastic bags are recycled Dinosaurs!
And if you don't think the decompose, try covering a window or door screen with them to hold out the winter cold. I think you'll find they deteriorate very rapidly.

We used Red Plastic in our garden one year before planting the tomato plants.
Left it down over the winter. Come spring it was too brittle to pick up, just broke in small pieces.
I tilled it under and we used black plastic for the next crop of tomatoes.
We could pick up the black plastic and saved it for the following year, but that's all we got out of it.
When I tilled for that third year, I only spotted perhaps half a dozen pieces of the former Red Plastic.
The year after than I found no red plastic when I tilled.
This is one of the reasons I don't believe them when they say it will be there for over 200 years!
Have you ever had anything made of plastic that held up very long?

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yogi
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Re: Rock And Roll

Post by yogi » 31 Aug 2018, 14:31

I make a distinction between deterioration and biodegrading. Bacteria will eat something biodegradable and convert it to ... bacteria poop. While plastic of any color will react to environmental conditions and break down, it remains plastic and toxic for a long long time. Bacteria will not touch plastic because it's not edible. There are many stories about dead fish floating up on beaches with bellies full of plastic, for example. It could not be digested even by their stomach acid, and thus killed them. Bacteria poop can actually be eaten, e.g. yogurt.

I have my suspicions about the dinosaurs-to-oil myth. I'm sure it is possible, but there is a hella lot more crude today than there ever were dinosaurs in all earth's history. I guess other things can be converted to oil besides dinosaurs, but it's hard for me to imagine so much living matter ever populated this planet.

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Kellemora
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Re: Rock And Roll

Post by Kellemora » 01 Sep 2018, 11:39

Although it is still a long way from solving the waste plastics dilemma, look at what scientists discovered.
Plastic eating enzymes.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/scie ... 07371.html

Plastics are made from Oil, Natural Gas, and Coal, all organic sources.
They polymerize (sp) of the organic ingredients to make a monomer.
In essence, almost all plastics are nothing more than a long chain of Carbon and Hydrogen.
Although it takes years to break back down to its individual components, technically plastic is an organic.

It is said that at the current rate of usage, we only have a tad over 53 years of oil left.
This was stated in 1981, at at the then current rate of production, we should have run out of oil by 2012.
However, oil production has increased almost 50%, and it looks like we have about 250 years of oil left.
The low 53 year figure was based only on Proved Reserves.
As the price of oil climbed, so did the ability to tap into the lesser producing reserves which were harder to extract the oil from. These reserves were at least 3 or more times larger than the Proved Reserves.
Then there is other means of squeezing oil from good old planet earth which is not yet technically feasible, such as fracking which causes other problems. If they can overcome these problems of extracting the harder to get oil, we could be looking at over 1000 years or more of oil left.
But then too, there are also other sources of oil that can be utilized, such as from oil producing crops. Thus creating a sustaining source for various types of oils.
And of course, they will use this to make even more plastics, hi hi.

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yogi
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Re: Rock And Roll

Post by yogi » 01 Sep 2018, 19:00

1000 year supply of oil??? I wonder how many dead dinosaurs and rotting tropical rain forests that amounts to. Not nearly enough is my guess.

There is a lot of discussion about when we will reach the Peak Oil point. As you point out the answer depends on innovative ways to extract the non sweet crude so readily available these days. To me the problem with plastic is akin to the problem with nuclear waste. There will eventually be too much to dispose of safely. I doubt that oil products will go the path of the dinosaurs and become extinct, but there will be alternate methods of energy generation that replace oil. When that happens it will be Peak Oil season.

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Kellemora
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Re: Rock And Roll

Post by Kellemora » 02 Sep 2018, 12:02

You should look into the amount of oil used to produce batteries and solar cells.
I wonder if it really is helping to have electric vehicles?

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yogi
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Re: Rock And Roll

Post by yogi » 02 Sep 2018, 15:36

This "carbon footprint" formula could get esoteric rapidly. :mrgreen:

Here is a fair explanation of what it takes to make one PV (Photo Voltaic) panel. To save you some reading, it's about 2/3rd of a barrel oil to make one PV panel. That cost can be recovered after 2 years of using the PV panel. After that it's all profit, but that's not the real point. There are no harmful emissions from PV panels, but converting oil to energy emits A LOT of toxins into the atmosphere. There is a carbon price to pay for solar energy, but it's limited and not ongoing as the use of oil would be. The author of the article also points out that most likely coal is being used to product solar cells, not oil. The same analysis applies but with different emissions from the coal compared to oil.

My guess is that it does help to use electric cars for the same reason it makes sense to use solar panels. The carbon price paid to make the batteries of an automobile is a one time thing. Using gasoline is forever. If there is concern over the emissions generated by oil, then using less would be a viable solution.

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Kellemora
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Re: Rock And Roll

Post by Kellemora » 04 Sep 2018, 12:05

I owned an electric car. Got rid of it before it was time to replace the battery racks, which was about 1/4 the price of the car back then, 1973-75. I didn't really pay much attention to our electric bill until it dropped by about 20 bucks a month after I got rid of the car. I think it used more charging current as the battery racks aged, because I never noticed an increase in my electric bill after I got the car. I also only charged it up 2 or 3 times a week when it was brand new, then after about a year I started plugging it in every night when I got home from work, else the heater would drain the battery low enough I worried about making it home from work. I started using an electric heater in it overnight so it was nice and warm when I left for work in the morning, this also burned up electric and increased my electric bill.
Honestly, I was glad to get rid of that thing!

Not to far from where I currently live, heading east on Gov. John Sevier Highway, we pass a humongous solar energy farm.
It may be how they power a small city down that way during the day. I say during the day because I've never seen any type of storage for the electric they produce, leastwise not at that location. Maybe they sell electric back to the grid during the day and buy back electric from the grid at night. I don't really know and never checked into it.

We have a few houses around us that have solar panels on the roof, but they too have no way to store electric. They pay 500 bucks for a special meter that allows them to sell electric back to the city, but they don't pay very much for it.

I've looked into Solar Panels and various programs where they still own the panels. There's no way, at their current cost, even in a special program, where it would come out cheaper than we currently pay for electric.

Don't want to get into a long drawn out story here, so the short version is: I bought a China Diesel Dynamo after we had a fight with the electric company. I ran solely on Generator power for a full year. At the end of the year, my fuel and maintenance costs were only around 3 bucks higher than if I bought our electric from the electric company.

My Dynamo was large enough I could have supplied 2 of my neighbors with power and made a profit, but it is illegal to do so. I was actually lucky to have got by on my own for a year, because if you are not connected to the utility companies, they can condemn your home for not buying services from them, at least in St. Louis County, it's the law you must be connected to all available utilities.
Down here it's a little different. Some people are on wells and still have septic tanks. However, if the sewer goes through you MUST connect to the sanitary sewer system. They install a water meter on the pipe from your well to your house to determine the sewer bill, or you can pay a flat rate which is higher.
Although you do have to have a connection to the power company, you only have to pay their minimum rate if you are generated your own electric. Reverse running meters are not allowed here, and probably not allowed most places, because it would mean selling electric back at the same price you buy it for, hi hi. But they do have a special meter you can buy if you do have excess electric from solar panels. I said buy, ha, you pay 500 bucks for them to come out and put in that type of meter, but they still own it.

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yogi
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Re: Rock And Roll

Post by yogi » 04 Sep 2018, 16:41

I think the most popular "environmentally friendly" automobiles today are hybrid. That overcomes the problem of running out of battery power.

We were talking about what it costs to produce the equipment for generating solar/wind power, which is why I looked into the article concerning carbon footprints. It's cheaper to make and use the panels than it is to drill and refine crude oil for generator consumption. As you point out, none of that takes into account local law or ordinances. I've not toured the countryside here in Missouri very much, but I can say I've not seen any wind turbines nor solar panels in the limited range I have spanned. There are several between here and my former home in Illinois.

One of my neighbors up north owned a 5000+ sq ft living space home. He had five children and needed it. He also was our dentist and an all around good fellow. I never knew he had a backup generator until the power went out in a storm one day. I could hear his generator running and the lights were on in his house. It was run off natural gas. That made me wonder if it would be economical to do such a thing permanently because natural gas was by and large a lot cheaper than electricity.

Now that I think about it, there was one time when my electric bill went down significantly. I can't say that I recall how much but I'm thinking 20-30 percent was about right. That was after I changed all the lighting in the house to LED bulbs. I wasn't shocked that LED's were cheaper to use, but I never realized how much we used incandescent. It's a huge part of the electric bill.

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Kellemora
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Re: Rock And Roll

Post by Kellemora » 05 Sep 2018, 12:30

That's the trouble with most generators, noise pollution, hi hi.
One of the reasons we bought the China Diesel Dynamo was because it was quiet. You could not hear it inside the house at all, but it did make some noise of course.

Light bulbs: A number of years ago, we switched out all the bulbs to compact fluorescent bulbs (pre-LED era).
Our electric cost did go down slightly, however our bulb replacement costs skyrocketed. We rarely if ever got more than a couple of years out of those expensive compacts. A few might last 5 years, but the ones that only lasted a few months ate away at what we were supposed to save.
Now, nearly ever bulb in our home is LED, and I've only had to replace a few. I found a source to get Daylight color LEDs in both 60 and 75 watt equivalent for only 1.75 and 2 bucks each respectively, instead of the 6 to 8 bucks they sold for in the stores. Although I see now they are starting to come down in price a bit.

The electric company has to meet their bottom line profit to keep the shareholders happy.
If everyone cut their electric usage in half, they would have to double their rate.
As people are using less electric, I've notice our electric bills rates have climbed fairly fast.
Even so, I think we are one of the cheapest rates in the country.
But not as cheap as they promised, back when they were trying to get support for the nuclear power plant.

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yogi
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Re: Rock And Roll

Post by yogi » 05 Sep 2018, 14:24

Down here in MO I deal with these guys: https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/3000 ... ght-bulbs/ They are a bit more than $2/bulb but this place has every light bulb known to man in stock - even incandescent.

The electric companies in Illinois were highly regulated, and I suspect there is something similar going on down here. It took many months if not years for a rate change to get approved. I always laughed at the people who protested the rate increases because they offered no viable alternatives. If the electric company can't produce electricity profitably, they must raise rates, cut back service, or go out of business. Only the first choice makes sense. I pay about the same for electricity here as I did up north and that makes no sense to me at all. l had a gas cook top up there and an electric one down here. Electric cooking seems widely popular for some ungodly reason. I hate it, but apparently the cost of electricity is good enough to justify using it.

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Kellemora
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Re: Rock And Roll

Post by Kellemora » 06 Sep 2018, 12:15

Although I had 16 burner gas griddles and char-broilers, I still preferred electric for the fryers and cooktops or stoves.

Had an awesome electric char-broiler in my home, which you cannot find anymore.
I really miss it too!

We do not have gas where I live, so everything is electric.
Our electric stove uses the temperature controlled pulsing heating elements, so cost a whole lot less to use than the old type with burner eyes. Almost but not quite as fast as gas during heat up, but close enough, and more controllable.

We do have a propane BBQ grill, and it eats propane more than any other grill I've ever owned.

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yogi
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Re: Rock And Roll

Post by yogi » 06 Sep 2018, 17:55

I know nothing about electric stoves, but I find it interesting that there are two methods of producing heat. It reminds me of the fans on the motherboard of this computer. They can be run using DC or via Pulse Width Modulation. Apparently the PWM method is more efficient. I never thought of applying that idea to heating elements on the cook top. Natural gas is readily available around here yet the majority of people I've talked to use electric for cooking. I did without it for most of my life so that it's hard for me to see any benefits from it. Perhaps it's better for making pancakes. Unfortunately I don't have a griddle and it's a pain in the drain making pancakes in a pan. Who would have thought? :grin:

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Kellemora
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Re: Rock And Roll

Post by Kellemora » 07 Sep 2018, 17:00

Rather than fire up the griddle, I often just tossed a flat steel sheet on the char-broiler to cook eggs or pancakes.
Not bacon though. Had to use the griddle so the grease had somewhere to go.
Honestly though, I'm one of those who prefer electric over gas for cooking, mainly because there is no guesswork anymore as to your pre-set temperatures. If you don't want something to burn or boil over, just set the temp accordingly.

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yogi
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Re: Rock And Roll

Post by yogi » 08 Sep 2018, 10:11

Well, I beg to differ with the idea electric heat is more controllable. Many recipes call for bringing the pot to a boil, covering it, then letting it simmer to finish the cooking. With gas cook tops the transition from a boiling hot flame to a simmering hot flame was instantaneous. The brew would react accordingly. With electric it takes several minutes to make the same transition which is long enough for the meal to boil over. That brings me to another down side of electric cooking. I never had so much trouble cleaning a stove as I have had trying to remove burnt grease from the ceramic top. And, forget about using cast iron cookware. The seasoned pan ruins the cook top almost beyond repair. I won't even get into how frustrating it is to try and boil water while I have to wait for the heating element to come up to temperature. In preparing a meal timing is everything. Electric cooking screws up the timing beyond belief.

I dunno. My wife loves it. I don't.

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Kellemora
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Re: Rock And Roll

Post by Kellemora » 08 Sep 2018, 10:54

Ahem? Most of my cookware is Cast Iron.
When I got our first ceramic cooktop, I took all of my cast iron to a machine shop and had them true the bottoms to perfectly flat using a head grinder. They have sat flat and worked perfectly ever since.

As far as heat up and cool down times. These new pulsing burners like are in the last three stoves or cooktops I've owned are amazing. I do agree it takes them about 20 to 30 seconds to get to high temp and get the ceramic top that hot too, but you don't have to wait for a pot to boil before setting the desired temp.
The stove we currently have has a Dwell feature. So, if you need to bring a pot to boil before reducing the temp, you set the high temp, press the dwell button, then turn it down to the desired setting.
Pans MUST sit perfectly flat on the cooktop for the burner to maintain the proper temperature by reading the pan bottom with the sensors in the cooktop.
Some of our old pots and pans got dented or the bottoms bent up or down, and those never work right on the stove.
When I redid the kitchen a few years ago, we tossed all the old tin pots and pans and bought either Magnalite or other equivalent brands. They cost a lot, but don't lose their shape and always sit flat. Many have a series of rings under the bottom.

As far as keeping the cooktop clean, we use Bar Keepers Friend, the old original formula, not the new diluted stuff sold at grocery stores now for about the same price as other non-scratch cleansers.
We also have another cleaner, a cream, don't remember the name of it off hand, but it works almost as well.
We only do a super clean of the cooktop about once a month or longer. About the time the buildup around the burner area gets black and brittle and can be scraped off.
I will say this, none of the stoves or cooktops we've had since the original Corning CounterRange, has been as easy to clean. but then too, the Corning only had normal heating eyes under the cooktop, not these super hot pulsing elements.

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yogi
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Re: Rock And Roll

Post by yogi » 08 Sep 2018, 12:50

My experience with cast iron pans is not as good as yours.

A new iron pan generally needs to be seasoned with oil before using it to cook. As the pot is used, the food oils get absorbed into the metal pores, which is a good thing and eliminates the need to use a jack hammer to scrape your scrambled eggs off the bottom of the pot. Plus, the heat is evenly distributed given the mass of the metal and the amount of time it takes to heat the bottom. Well, that's the theory.

All the years I had a gas cooker I never had a cast iron anything. About a year ago I bought a small pan that was "pre-seasoned" at the factory. That means the entire pan had been greased and burned, including the outside bottom which comes into contact with the stove top. On a gas burner that's no big deal. On the electric burner it fuses the bottom of the pot to the top of the stove. Well it can, but I was lucky to not leave the pan on the burner very long. After the first use a ring of crud was etched into the ceramic cook top. Scraping didn't help, which might have been my fault because I didn't want to scratch the surface. Non scratching grit cleaners didn't do anything at all. One of the stove top cleaners with "micro grit" got some of the edges off, but left most of the burnt crud in place. Soaking it with vinegar was about as good as the micro grit and didn't do much. Finally, after three days of constant soaking with household ammonia, the crud melted well enough for me to rub off. The pot now sits in my pantry to remind me what not to do with this electric cook top.

They put the cheapest appliances they could find into this house and I doubt that I have pulsing burners. At least I don't have any settings like the ones you describe. I don't know how you keep your pot bottoms flat and true. All my pans warp eventually be they stainless steel, aluminum, non stick, or whatever. Then again, I don't use cast iron. That might explain the difference.

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Kellemora
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Re: Rock And Roll

Post by Kellemora » 09 Sep 2018, 11:25

Oxalic Acid, sold at many hardware stores as Wood Bleach, will literally eat away any burnt on stuff on a ceramic cooktop without hurting the top.
It's the main ingredient in the original Bar Keepers Friend. It's still in the current Bar Keepers Friend but at a greatly reduced amount to keep the cost way down from the original.
We still buy Bar Keepers Friend, but add a couple of tablespoons of Oxalic Acid to the close-able shaker we keep it in.

The bottoms of most of our pots and pans are really thick. They have laminated bottoms, probably with aluminum or copper between the stainless steel layers. Darn things weigh almost as much as cast iron.

We have nothing in our house containing Teflon, which was supposed to be outlawed years ago, but we still find it in things you wouldn't think would have it in it, such as electric space heaters. These heaters KILL BIRDS, who go through a horrible, long-suffering death.
We lost two birds valued at around 6 thousand dollars due to hidden Teflon in heaters.
My wife's cousin also lost two, an African Gray with a 40 phrase vocabulary, and a Sulphur Crested Cockatoo with about a 10 phrase vocabulary, plus it did all kinds of tricks on command. She put the blame on a new vaporizer used to keep the room humidity up. Same brand as the old one, so she assumed the new one was safe. Nope, they found Teflon in it, which was not mentioned anywhere on the product labeling or in the little pamphlet that came inside the box.
I wish these companies that hid this deadly material in their products would be held responsible for the many painful deaths it causes.

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