i'm sitting in an apartment building among hundreds of them in Haninge, a stockholm satelite. i look across and over other buildings, see for miles. a few miles away i see an enormous smoke stack puffing away, so, naturally i want to know what that's about. it's the heating system for the next SUBDIVISION.
pardon?
in the burbs you take your recycling to a very complex recycling centre, which i've mentioned before, that leaves very little actual garbage, but in the apartment buildings you plop everyhing down the shute, but glass. the garbage then gets sorted out and most of it ends up in a massive furnace for hot water radiator heat to thousands of people.
even better, they've managed to cut the pollution to just about 0.
pretty cool.
what does your garbage do for you?
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Re: what does your garbage do for you?
Smoke coming out of the stacks ... and just about 0 pollution??? How is that possible?
Also, how do they keep the water hot when they distribute it to thousands of people from a common source? The piping must be perfectly insulated.
Also, how do they keep the water hot when they distribute it to thousands of people from a common source? The piping must be perfectly insulated.
Re: what does your garbage do for you?
Actually not Yogi.
We had 12 acres under real glass, all heated by low-pressure steam, and the other houses and buildings on the property by the return lines of condensed hot water.
The feed lines, or main distribution lines if you prefer, are all underground in concrete troughs with concrete covers. These troughs become like the insulation, and had very little heat loss once the system was running full-cycle.
There are different types of steam heating systems. A good percentage of them are not cyclic, and allow the condensed water to drain back to the boiler in the same pipes that feed the radiation units. Some systems are open ended, so of course waste a lot of water.
Although there is some return water in the feed system of a closed loop system which drains back. The system like we used had return lines which collected the condensed water, which was still hot. This water was fed to radiators in the housing and occupied buildings first, then through other buildings that needed to keep temps above freezing.
So it was more like a combined steam and hot water heating system.
Like most greenhouses, in the early years we powered the boilers with coal.
When we retired the old stoker boilers, we installed oil fired boilers.
A few years later we had to install scrubbers in our chimney.
After a few years of dealing with this mess of handling the scrubbers, we converted to natural gas.
Once we were on natural gas, we had to add smaller boilers to handle the homes and heated buildings, because we couldn't keep the temperature up where it needed to be using natural gas in boilers originally designed for oil.
Aside from the pollution from burning coal, which everyone did back then, it was the most economical, versatile, and produced a low residual income. Once started and up to temperature, steam was diverted through a generator to power the electric pumps and stoker motors, also to light the boiler room and a few ancillary buildings. So there was no electrical expense. The spent coal produced Cinders which were sold to make cinder blocks. Not much income, but better than no income, and it got the cinders hauled away for free on a regular schedule.
Changing to oil meant more than just replacing the boilers and buying oil. We now had to provide electric for the pumps, lighting, and buy descaling chemicals for the treatment of city water to supply the modern boilers.
And then as I mentioned, the purchase and installation of scrubbers in the chimney, which had to be sent out for special cleaning, and at great expense.
One of the homes I lived in was heated with hot water modern strip style radiators. It used a small natural gas boiler, and was probably the best heated house I ever lived in. They didn't stick out in the room like a radiator, nor did they take up space like baseboard strip heaters. They were inside the walls with a long grill on the wall just above the floor. Didn't stick out any further than a grill over a forced air duct inside the wall.
We had 12 acres under real glass, all heated by low-pressure steam, and the other houses and buildings on the property by the return lines of condensed hot water.
The feed lines, or main distribution lines if you prefer, are all underground in concrete troughs with concrete covers. These troughs become like the insulation, and had very little heat loss once the system was running full-cycle.
There are different types of steam heating systems. A good percentage of them are not cyclic, and allow the condensed water to drain back to the boiler in the same pipes that feed the radiation units. Some systems are open ended, so of course waste a lot of water.
Although there is some return water in the feed system of a closed loop system which drains back. The system like we used had return lines which collected the condensed water, which was still hot. This water was fed to radiators in the housing and occupied buildings first, then through other buildings that needed to keep temps above freezing.
So it was more like a combined steam and hot water heating system.
Like most greenhouses, in the early years we powered the boilers with coal.
When we retired the old stoker boilers, we installed oil fired boilers.
A few years later we had to install scrubbers in our chimney.
After a few years of dealing with this mess of handling the scrubbers, we converted to natural gas.
Once we were on natural gas, we had to add smaller boilers to handle the homes and heated buildings, because we couldn't keep the temperature up where it needed to be using natural gas in boilers originally designed for oil.
Aside from the pollution from burning coal, which everyone did back then, it was the most economical, versatile, and produced a low residual income. Once started and up to temperature, steam was diverted through a generator to power the electric pumps and stoker motors, also to light the boiler room and a few ancillary buildings. So there was no electrical expense. The spent coal produced Cinders which were sold to make cinder blocks. Not much income, but better than no income, and it got the cinders hauled away for free on a regular schedule.
Changing to oil meant more than just replacing the boilers and buying oil. We now had to provide electric for the pumps, lighting, and buy descaling chemicals for the treatment of city water to supply the modern boilers.
And then as I mentioned, the purchase and installation of scrubbers in the chimney, which had to be sent out for special cleaning, and at great expense.
One of the homes I lived in was heated with hot water modern strip style radiators. It used a small natural gas boiler, and was probably the best heated house I ever lived in. They didn't stick out in the room like a radiator, nor did they take up space like baseboard strip heaters. They were inside the walls with a long grill on the wall just above the floor. Didn't stick out any further than a grill over a forced air duct inside the wall.
Re: what does your garbage do for you?
yogi, I also was curious about the smoke thing, so I looked it up and found it on a Vattenfall website, but bugger if I find it again... whatever it is, it's non-polluting something and well, they get really cranky about that stuff here, so i'm almost buying it.
nevertheless, it's less anything than if each house/apartment was to heat their own individually. the pipes all run deep underground.
i'll look into it more later.
nevertheless, it's less anything than if each house/apartment was to heat their own individually. the pipes all run deep underground.
i'll look into it more later.
Re: what does your garbage do for you?
Encasing the steam pipes in concrete creates a wonderful thermal mass that is reluctant to change temperatures over time. It's still a lossy system given the thermal dynamics of concrete. Our old house up north was all brick and took a few weeks for the outside bricks to adjust to the seasonal temperatures. Thus the house stayed cooler longer as we entered summer and warmer longer as we entered winter. The plastic and manufactured wood ticky tacky box we live in these days creaks and makes noises and loses heat almost instantly. So, I'm guessing Haninge might have concrete around their steam pipes and scrubbers on their chimneys. Makes sense. 
Re: what does your garbage do for you?
My grandfathers house had 18 inch thick exterior walls, with 6 inch flue tiles horizontally inside the walls, about every 3 feet in height of the wall. I never understood their purpose, since they were not used for anything. They had no vents or openings, so I guess was just dead air space.
Although this house was expensive to heat, it didn't need an air conditioner to keep cool inside.
The house was divided into three main sections, with a 16 inch thick wall dividing each section, and if you went up into the attics, these walls went all the way beyond the roof line, almost like a super wide chimney.
I'm sure these were fire walls, because his old house burned down, and when he built this one, he made it as fireproof as possible. Almost no wood inside, except for the cabinets and book cases.
Where one would expect studs, lath, and plaster. Instead it was blocks or bricks, wire screen, and plaster.
Hmm, maybe that is where I got my paranoia from, hi hi...
Although this house was expensive to heat, it didn't need an air conditioner to keep cool inside.
The house was divided into three main sections, with a 16 inch thick wall dividing each section, and if you went up into the attics, these walls went all the way beyond the roof line, almost like a super wide chimney.
I'm sure these were fire walls, because his old house burned down, and when he built this one, he made it as fireproof as possible. Almost no wood inside, except for the cabinets and book cases.
Where one would expect studs, lath, and plaster. Instead it was blocks or bricks, wire screen, and plaster.
Hmm, maybe that is where I got my paranoia from, hi hi...
Re: what does your garbage do for you?
I always wanted to live in a castle because I imagine they have stone and cement walls at least 16" thick. That would make it pretty bullet-proof against any kind of weather. There must be some kind of village ordinance against that kind of thing. 
Re: what does your garbage do for you?
Re: what does your garbage do for you?
Stone walls are like a brick over. The trick is to make the stone walls thick enough so that it takes all summer to heat them up.
Re: what does your garbage do for you?
When I was doing renovation work, I ran across a few homes who's annual utilities costs were unusually low.
I wouldn't have known this, except for the owner bragging about his heating and cooling costs.
The clincher was, he said his house has no insulation material in the walls.
This was a misnomer in a way, because in lieu of insulation, he had three air gaps in the exterior walls.
My old house had triple-track windows for most of the years I lived there.
When I replaced them with thermo-pane windows, my utilities went up instead of down.
I also noticed when you touched the windows, they were either hotter or cooler than the room, depending on the season.
With the old triple-track windows, they inside glass was always the same temp as the ambient room temperature.
Because they are not sealed, instead of only cleaning the outside and inside, you still had four more sides of glass to clean. Doing windows was a big job, so we were glad we got the thermo-pane tilt-in to clean, hi hi...
I wouldn't have known this, except for the owner bragging about his heating and cooling costs.
The clincher was, he said his house has no insulation material in the walls.
This was a misnomer in a way, because in lieu of insulation, he had three air gaps in the exterior walls.
My old house had triple-track windows for most of the years I lived there.
When I replaced them with thermo-pane windows, my utilities went up instead of down.
I also noticed when you touched the windows, they were either hotter or cooler than the room, depending on the season.
With the old triple-track windows, they inside glass was always the same temp as the ambient room temperature.
Because they are not sealed, instead of only cleaning the outside and inside, you still had four more sides of glass to clean. Doing windows was a big job, so we were glad we got the thermo-pane tilt-in to clean, hi hi...
Re: what does your garbage do for you?
Re: what does your garbage do for you?
I've seen a house built with no insulation in the outer walls and it too was inexpensive to heat/cool. The trick was that the studs did not connect the inner and outer walls. The inside wall studs were woven between the outside wall studs and there was no contact between the two. The air gap was sufficient to insulate the house perfectly. It makes sense because heat conducts a lot easier through solids (wooden studs) than it does through gas (ambient air). They did something tricky with the windows and doors as well, but I don't recall how that was done. I was too impressed with the walls.
Re: what does your garbage do for you?
Re: what does your garbage do for you?
The walls in this house were at least ten inches thick which requires a sturdier (more expensive) foundation. The studs were 2x6 instead of the more conventional 2x4. They went through a lot of trouble to make the house air tight which is also labor intensive and expensive. Houses would be much less affordable, albeit more energy efficient, if they were build that way.
Re: what does your garbage do for you?
That offset stud design is also how we build soundproof rooms in studios.
There can be no contact between the interior and exterior walls to transmit sound.
Also, a sound deadening material is suspended between the studs for each wall.
On one job, we had to divide a studio into two separate smaller studios.
Space was limited so we used 2x3 studs offset by only 1-1/2 inches. Which means it did have a common sill and header plate which was split and foam placed between them. The ends of the studs were notched so they did not touch the opposing sill or header. The owner was happy with the result so we got paid, hi hi...
There can be no contact between the interior and exterior walls to transmit sound.
Also, a sound deadening material is suspended between the studs for each wall.
On one job, we had to divide a studio into two separate smaller studios.
Space was limited so we used 2x3 studs offset by only 1-1/2 inches. Which means it did have a common sill and header plate which was split and foam placed between them. The ends of the studs were notched so they did not touch the opposing sill or header. The owner was happy with the result so we got paid, hi hi...
Re: what does your garbage do for you?
I guess thermal dynamics and acoustics share some properties, i.e., they travel faster through solids than through gasses. On our house hunting expedition to Colorado we found many of the homes had basements. Most, but not all of them, had a very thick layer of insulation mounted to the inner foundation walls. I'm guessing it was at least 8" thick. I knew it got cold in Colorado, but this heavy duty insulation seemed excessive. I have no idea how you would finish off a basement like that. I'm guessing it would take some false walls in front of that batting.
Re: what does your garbage do for you?
Hmm, I had an aunt and uncle who lived in Denver their whole lives. Their home had a full-basement. But the foundation was poured in such a way that insulation was only on the top four feet of the basement walls, and the inside wall was then flush with the top. He only finished a small part of his basement, the area where the washer and dryer sat. I don't think he used studs at all, just screwed and/or glued the drywall directly to the foundation walls. He may have had 1x3s behind the drywall, too long ago to remember.
I though all homes had basements until my aunt bought a slab home, then learned a lot of homes don't have a basement.
A basement is a rare thing in some areas, like Florida, or even here in TN.
I though all homes had basements until my aunt bought a slab home, then learned a lot of homes don't have a basement.
A basement is a rare thing in some areas, like Florida, or even here in TN.
Re: what does your garbage do for you?
most houses in Canada that I've seen are built that way. the insulation is not necessary below the frost line, as long as none of the walls are exposed.Their home had a full-basement. But the foundation was poured in such a way that insulation was only on the top four feet of the basement walls, and the inside wall was then flush with the top
Re: what does your garbage do for you?
I think the idea of basement insulation has to do with efficiency. The ground below the frost line sits at around 42 degrees and the concrete under your house is in contact with all this coldness. The batting of insulation is intended to keep the heat inside and the cold outside, thus reducing the amount of energy needed to stay warm and fuzzy all winter long. You can still be warm and fuzzy without the insulation, but it would take a lot more fuel to do it.
Re: what does your garbage do for you?
Hmm, don't think so Yogi. Unless you mean within 6 inches of the frost line.
Underground temperatures, one foot below the frostline in winter, range between 49 and 52 degrees, depending on location. Going deeper only increases the temperature. Most caves are around 55 to 59 degrees or warmer, year round, unless influenced by outside air passing through them. Onondaga Cave is usually 57 degrees year round, and never varies by more than one degree during peak times of hot or cold seasons. Meramec Caverns is a degree warmer probably due to the excess lighting and traffic through the cave.
Underground temperatures, one foot below the frostline in winter, range between 49 and 52 degrees, depending on location. Going deeper only increases the temperature. Most caves are around 55 to 59 degrees or warmer, year round, unless influenced by outside air passing through them. Onondaga Cave is usually 57 degrees year round, and never varies by more than one degree during peak times of hot or cold seasons. Meramec Caverns is a degree warmer probably due to the excess lighting and traffic through the cave.