TinyPics Demise

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Kellemora
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Re: TinyPics Demise

Post by Kellemora » 02 Oct 2019, 10:37

Yes, a Swedge is the tool, Swagging is operation done using the tool.
When joining lengths of pipe a straight coupling is used.
This requires cleaning the ends of both pipes, the inside of the coupling, and sweating two joints.
A power swedge like I used cleans the swedged pipe while making the expansion.
So, you only have to clean the raw pipe end and do ONE sweating operation instead of two.
One less joint to worry about leaking too!
You could buy pipe that was already swedged, but then you had to clean it before sweating.
But the problem with pre-swedged pipes is they always get bent on the swedged end.

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yogi
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Re: TinyPics Demise

Post by yogi » 02 Oct 2019, 11:38

You're telling me things only a plumber could appreciate. For all the maintenance on my home that needed to be done over the years, plumbing was my least favorite. I typically called in a pro when I needed something done. Any plumbing that is more than a year old is obsolete; or so it seems. Nothing new ever fits the old fixtures. You're to be admired if you mastered that trade. :mrgreen:

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Kellemora
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Re: TinyPics Demise

Post by Kellemora » 03 Oct 2019, 12:16

You got that right, just like computers, everyone wants their product to be PROPRIETARY and not play well with competitors products. At one time, almost all plumbing equipment was fairly standard, except fixture innards after the standard rubber seated types, and they had all different sizes too.

Now, even the piping is different and a lot of it proprietary also.
And sadly, a lot of these companies don't make conversion fittings to join two different companies products together.

When I started in plumbing, almost all work was cast iron, or clay pipes for the laterals.
So I had to buy all the tools necessary for pouring molten lead horizontal and vertical upside down, a lot of odd situations required some specialized tools to be able to do it. Also when I started, no hub bands would not pass code so we could not use them. Today, no hub bands are quite commonplace and used nearly everywhere. Especially for joining ABS (now no longer code) or PVC to cast iron.
However, even though it passed code, I would NEVER USE PVC, CPVC, or any of the others for supply lines.
Going into homes that had these, to fix blown apart joints was one of the most common things we were called in to do.
And you should see the amount of water damage in houses because when a joint blows apart, you have the full flow of water running in between the walls, across the flooring, and dripping down to whatever is below that wall.
It takes a homeowner, if they are home at the time, close to a half hour before they remember where the main shut off is, and move the stuff they have blocking it, to even get to the shut-off valve. Also in many cases, when they opened it, they opened it all the way and failed to crack it back 1/4 turn, so it has frozen open and they can't get it shut off by themselves.

In fact, that is something you should remember about all valves that are normally left in the open position. After you open them all the way, turn them back 1/4 turn to prevent them from freezing in that position. Not meaning temperature here.

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yogi
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Re: TinyPics Demise

Post by yogi » 03 Oct 2019, 14:07

I know of what you speak about frozen shut off valves. However, I don't quite get why backing them off a quarter turn would stop the freezing action. I could be wrong but I thought the minerals in the water accumulated around the seals of the valves and that is what freezes them. Those minerals are there regardless of what position the valve is in. However, and I don't know where I learned about it, I do exactly what you say; open the valve to max, then back off. I can't really do that with the water that leads to the outside taps. No leakage can be tolerated to an outside connection. Not even here in Missouri. LOL

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Kellemora
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Re: TinyPics Demise

Post by Kellemora » 04 Oct 2019, 10:40

You're confusing me here. Just because you open a valve then turn it back closed a quarter turn would cause your outdoor faucets to leak or drip. You don't back off on a valve you close. That's different. If you back off you will get water dripping.

There are actually two problems at play when you open a shut-off valve all the way.
One of these is calcium deposits, but the other is cathodic.
The housing is brass, but the shaft is steel.
When you open a valve all the way, the flat area of the steel shaft rams into the flat area of the brass housing.
Shut-off are not made with any type of cathodic protection to prevent them from welding themselves together.
Cathodic action does have an affect on the steel screw where it meets the brass housing threads, but it is minimal due to the small surface area, and calcium will build up here fast and stop the cathodic action.
It just can't get to the area where the shaft meets the brass housing flat area when fully opened.

I've worked in many houses were I had to shut the water off at the street in order to replace a valve that was frozen in the open position. If only the manufacturers would put a disk of some sort in there, this wouldn't happen. Also another good reason to go with ball valves instead of normal shut-offs.

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yogi
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Re: TinyPics Demise

Post by yogi » 04 Oct 2019, 16:56

I didn't quite get what you were referring to. We both agree that you can't back off on a closed valve. I've not considered the cathodic action until you mentioned it. That phenomena would explain valves stuck in the open position. I recall a time in my previous house when a plumber replaced the main shutoff with one of those ball action valves. I thought it was superfluous, but apparently it has some merit. They must be more expensive than the normal valves. I complain all the time about the shortcuts they took in this new house, but all the shutoff valves are ball type. Kudos to the installers.

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Kellemora
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Re: TinyPics Demise

Post by Kellemora » 05 Oct 2019, 10:42

A ball valve is not usually susceptible to calcium buildup which could prevent it from sealing.
Like in the pipes, a little calcium could build up in the hole the water passes through.
But if constructed properly, when fully open, you won't see any of the ball itself.
You should not crack back a ball valve like you do other valves, because it does not have a land to worry about.

Then there is a wedge valve, although great valves, they tend to cause more problems than normal valves when left in the open position as the normal position. A wedge valve seals by pushing a cone shaped wedge into the case to seal it shut.
Needless to say, calcium can quickly build up on the wedge, preventing a solid closure and seal.

The under-sink and under toilet shut-offs can be the normal type shut-offs, but should be cracked back a quarter turn.
But if you have secondary shut-offs in the basement that go to each room, these should be ball valves.
I made a rather impressive header for the cold water in my basement.
It has one main shut-off, and I think six secondary shut-offs, all ball valves. All brass and copper too!

Here ya go, scroll down to page four and you'll see the header I made before I installed it.
http://stonebrokemanor.classichauslimit ... l2008b.pdf

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yogi
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Re: TinyPics Demise

Post by yogi » 05 Oct 2019, 12:09

The wedge valve is an interesting device. I could not think of a more complicated way to accomplish a shutoff. LOL I was warned a time or two not to use them if I could avoid it. It was the main shutoff valve for my water supply in the old house and I don't remember exactly why it was changed. The city replaced the water meter one day and that guy is the person who told me why I should replace the valve. Of course, the city would not do it so that I had to hire a plumber. They replaced the meter with one that could be read by a truck passing by so that nobody had to come into the house to read the meter. I don't know what frequencies that meter was using but it was located a few feet underground in my basement. Apparently it worked well enough.

The header in that picture is a work of art. I would think the main feed pipe would have to be larger than what is shown, but I am certain that not all six ports were running at the same time.

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Kellemora
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Re: TinyPics Demise

Post by Kellemora » 06 Oct 2019, 11:26

I ran a new 3/4 inch copper line into the house from the meter at the street.
Where it comes into the house, this header sits on top of that inbound pipe.

The 3/4 inch pipes that leave the header at each end go to an outdoor faucet and the water heater.
Of the four 1/2 inch pipes, two go to the bathroom, the sink and shower on one, the toilet is by itself. The reason the toilet is by itself is because that pipe fed the water outlet in the crawl space where I watered plants and had a small sink for cleaning plants and pots. When I quit using the growing area in the crawl space, I hooked the bathroom toilet to that line, so when someone flushed the toilet while someone was in the shower, they didn't get scalded, hi hi.
One goes to the kitchen sink and dishwasher. The other goes to the washing machine, which at the time I made the header was supposed to go into the mud room along with a half-bath.

Although there are shut-offs like for the bathroom sink, that vanity is always packed solid with stuff. Much easier to close the ball valve inside the crawl space door, hi hi.
Of all those ball valves, the only one with a bleed is the main valve at the bottom.
Having this header actually made building the new bathroom and kitchen much easier.
I could shut off the water only to that area without shutting off the entire house.
And if I did need to drain the pipe. I could close all the valves, including the main shut off, then open only the valve for the area I was working in, and open the bleed on the main. Then as soon as the water drained out of that single run, I could close that valve, turn the main back on, then open all the rest of the valves again. They may get one little spurt of air but that's about it.

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yogi
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Re: TinyPics Demise

Post by yogi » 06 Oct 2019, 13:13

That shower scalding effect had been an issue in every house I lived in. I don't know what they did in the current house, but you can indeed flush the toilet and take a shower at the same time without being scalded. It would seem unlikely that they would go through the trouble of putting the toilet on a separate line given all the short cuts they took when building this place. Likewise, there are fixtures that take care of that problem, but they are super expensive. Again I can't see them doing such a thing in a spec house. So, maybe we are just lucky, but there is something different in the plumbing that I never had before. There is some kind of gizmo near the hot water heater that they told me keeps the line pressure at 80 psi. The water tower is visible from my house and not more than a couple miles from here so that I'd not expect there to be a pressure problem. But, it's possible that whatever they installed fixed the hot shower problem.

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Kellemora
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Re: TinyPics Demise

Post by Kellemora » 07 Oct 2019, 10:45

All modern shower valves have a temperature sensor inside to prevent folks from getting scalded.
The downfall is, some of them will maintain a constant temperature up until you run out of hot water.
While the old style, as the water heater cools down, you would have to turn the valve hotter, so you knew you were about out of hot water.

In St. Loo, we had pressure regulators in almost all the houses to keep the house pressure at 60psi, even though the inbound line was up around 80 psi. Without it, things like washer, dishwasher, and toilet valves would fail more often.

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yogi
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Re: TinyPics Demise

Post by yogi » 07 Oct 2019, 13:36

I knew there were such things as pressure regulators for water supplies, but this is the first house I lived in that actually has one installed. They are virtually unheard of in the residential home where I lived near Chicago. I never had a way to measure the incoming water pressure but I'm guessing it was less than 80 psi on some days. I could tell just by the way the water flowed into the kitchen sink.

Don't know about this place, but up north I had one of those temperature control valves in the shower. We had a 50 gallon water tank with fast recovery so that there wasn't usually a problem. However, in order to get into that comfortable temperature range, the faucet had to be set differently in winter than in summer. I recall reading how to adjust the range of the settings should it become necessary. It was too much trouble for me. I just took cooler showers in the winter than in the summer. LOL

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Kellemora
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Re: TinyPics Demise

Post by Kellemora » 08 Oct 2019, 11:09

Because I also use hot water for making my products initial blending process, I had to turn our water heater up something like 15 degrees hotter than it should be set.
Even so, I did reset the shower high limit control back down so someone didn't get cooked in the shower.
It was easy to do on my shower, I just turn the handle to as hot as it will go, then turn the mixing set screw down until the temp was at I think it was 110 degrees, don't remember now.
But to take a shower you don't turn it that hot, you just turn the handle to 90 degrees from off and then either down if you want it cooler or up if you want it hotter. And it will stay at that temp during your whole shower.

You're going to laugh at this. Like in mom and dads original house. If I wanted to take a shower or a bath at my grandmothers house on my mom's side. We had to first turn the water on low, then go down and light the flame in the coil of the water heater.
Darn thing looked like something from a space movie, hi hi. But it did have an automatic control to keep it from overheating the coil. As long as water was running, the flame burned large and bright, but if you slowed down the water flow, the flame went down with it. Turn the water off completely and the flame would shut-off itself after about 1 or 2 minutes. I guess you could compare it to the instant hot water devices of today, sorta, hi hi.

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yogi
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Re: TinyPics Demise

Post by yogi » 08 Oct 2019, 12:15

Up until about ten years ago I had to relight the pilot on the hot water heater from time to time. Apparently when the wind was blowing the right way it would create enough draft to kill the pilot light. The replacement water heater was sealed. It was still a gas heater but they said it will never need to have anything done with it. Also, we used to be required to drain the tank periodically to clear out the crud that settled on the bottom. The new water heaters don't need that done. My thought was that the minerals in the water would settle to the bottom of the tank and act as an insulator to make it more difficult to heat. Not sure how they got around that, but it is a great idea.

So, when you tell me about lighting up hot water heaters, It's not so funny.

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Kellemora
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Re: TinyPics Demise

Post by Kellemora » 09 Oct 2019, 13:43

They added a cathode rod inside of water heaters for the minerals to stick to instead of building up on the bottom.
That's what the other suspicious looking bolt on the top of water heater holds in place.

Our old water heater with a pilot light. Every time the frau folded sheets she took out of the dryer, she managed to blow the pilot light out. I added an extra tin piece behind the white door and it stopped that from happening.
The next water heater we had used an electric starter.
Down here we don't have natural gas in my area, so everything is electric.

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yogi
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Re: TinyPics Demise

Post by yogi » 09 Oct 2019, 16:03

They don't make water heaters like they used to. I recall buying a replacement something like twenty years ago. I believe it cost around $700. Just before we sold the last house I had to replace that heater. I got a high efficiency one with direct venting and the price was just over $2000. There was no maintenance involved with the new one so that it probably had that cathode rod. The only control was to set the temperature of the water. It was a nice piece of equipment but hard to believe it was three times the price of the previous one.

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Kellemora
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Re: TinyPics Demise

Post by Kellemora » 11 Oct 2019, 11:13

Ouch Yogi - I just replaced my water heater about five years ago, and I think it only cost around 185 bucks for a dual element 30 gallon, which is plenty big for the two of us. It replaced a really old 25 gallon. The old one already had the elements replaced twice that I am aware of, so I figured it was time for a new more efficient model.

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yogi
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Re: TinyPics Demise

Post by yogi » 11 Oct 2019, 13:37

The heater I'm talking about was 50 gallons which meant wife could be doing laundry while I was taking a shower and we'd never run out of hot water. It was overkill, but we didn't know who would be moving into the house after us. There is also a premium for direct venting. I don't get why because there is less venting involved. The efficiency was the big thing. I don't recall that figure either. but something like 97% rings a bell. At $2K it was still over priced, but it had all the bells and whistles you could have at that time.

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Kellemora
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Re: TinyPics Demise

Post by Kellemora » 12 Oct 2019, 12:14

There was a house I worked in who had a really fancy water heater. All the hot water piping in the house was also double insulated. The tank itself had several layers of insulation, plus duct-work going to the firebox, and the flue pipes leaving the water heater had recapture fins and a sleeve over those. Strangest thing I ever saw.
This was years ago and he said the price was over a grand for it, which would be more like your two grand today.

I was hired to replace all the doors in another house that had a unique heating/cooling system.
Every room in the house had it's own thermostat and box of fins, like strip heaters sorta.
There was no duct-work at all in his house. Just two copper tubes in the basement that ran to each room, one large and one small. I never did see the heating plant or AC compressor since I was not in the utility room.
Now I've seen room systems that were dependent on the main unit being set to heat or cool, but this house didn't work that way. Each room could be set to heat or cool and at the desired temperature. How efficient it was would be anybody's guess. But if you saw the house, I doubt if money was an object of concern, hi hi.

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yogi
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Re: TinyPics Demise

Post by yogi » 12 Oct 2019, 13:51

I"m guessing that home with the zone climate control had something like that header you showed me for your water distribution. Each individual zone could be heating or cooing depending on the need. I'd suppose something like that would require a lot of piping, and not just two lines connecting all the rooms together. It's amazing what can be done when money is no object.

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