Windows 10 ... again

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Icey
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Windows 10 ... again

Post by Icey » 18 Sep 2015, 18:26

I didn't know where to post this, but I've been very brave and sampled Windows 10. :eek:

What can I say, except anyone who can work it out quickly deserves a medal. It's completely unlike what I'm used to, but I took our youngest son round to someone's house tonight so that he could show off his new laptop (meant for his birthday really, which's a couple of months away yet, but ...), and almost expired with stress! :lol:

I couldn't find where various programmes were located, but within minutes, my son was skyping his best friend and I had to drag him away.

I'm sure that it'll be fabulous for most people, but I've decided I don't want it! How's someone like me, with so little computer knowledge, expected to use the OS? I suppose it gets better with practice, but I was scared of clicking onto things in case I messed the whole thing up. I just don't "get it". Are there any tutorials, in simple terms, for people like me or for those who've yet to even buy a computer? Believe it or not, there are still loads of people in the UK who aren't online, and I feel sorry for older people who've probably never even used a keyboard, but who're being encouraged to use a computer to keep their minds active. I think if they see the 10, it'll addle them! :worry:

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yogi
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Re: Windows 10 ... again

Post by yogi » 18 Sep 2015, 19:34

First of all, welcome to the club. While Windows 10 isn't the most perfect operating system in the world, it is probably the best effort that Microsoft ever made to make it easy to use. One of the main considerations was to make the new system familiar enough for people who are currently using Windows 7 and Windows 8 to migrate over with minimal disruption. This means that once you get into it, you will actually recognize quite a few things as being what you are used to doing now. But, as you say, it's not necessarily intuitively obvious where to find all those familiar things. I read an interesting comment about cooking that is apropos to learning Windows 10. "The only way to learn how to cook is to stand in front of a stove." So it is with technology. The only way you are going to learn Windows 10 is by hands on experience.

There is a wealth of information out there regarding how to use this new software. I would suggest saving that search for information until you have some familiarity with actually using Windows 10. Fortunately, Microsoft indeed includes a lot of information right in the operating system. I'll show you how to get to their information then let you read what is of interest. Come back with questions if it gets confusing.

First of all, Windows 10 has a START button just like Windows 7, and in the same place: the lower left corner of your monitor. It's the new Windows 10 logo and all you need do is click on it to get started.

Image

Your menu will not look like my menu in the picture, but it should be similar. At the top left is a list of things in the START menu. Select the "Get Started" link. For the time being don't fret over what is on the right side. You will love or hate it, but for now all you want to do is understand what Windows 10 is capable of doing.

Image

The "Get Started" app will help you get to know Windows. The table of contents is impressive and overwhelming in many ways. Just pick one or two things that you think might be of interest to you and come back to the other topics later. And, that's about it, love. You need to stand in front of the stove and start cooking with Windows 10. I'm sure there will be a few follow up questions, but all you need to do now is look around.

And, by the way, I know I told you this before, but it doesn't matter if you break Windows by pressing the wrong buttons. That's part of the learning curve and there is nothing you can break that cannot be repaired. If you do need technical assistance, it seems as if your youngest one would be the first line tech support person. LOL

Enjoy. :mrgreen:

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Icey
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Re: Windows 10 ... again

Post by Icey » 19 Sep 2015, 20:35

Awww, thank you Yogi. When I feel ready to look at the thing again, I'll do as you suggest, and maybe, very maybe, I'll eventually get used to using the "easiest" things first. I know it's a case of not running before you can walk. I surpassed myself by even LOOKING at what my son was being shown, but I know that the day might come when I could be glad that I'd made an effort, so even though I still don't fancy using 10 myself (yet), I guess it's best to have a little go with it now and again. With a bit of prompting, I managed to install Firefox tonight. I know it's usually a quick job, but I admit that I was nervous of the new set-up. I think it stems from one unforgettable time when I nudged or pressed something by mistake on my old computer and lost everything! OK., someone got it all back for me, but I was panic-stricken until they did. It really upset me because I thought I'd broken the thing!! Fancy getting to my age and having to admit that, but it's true.
My eldest son's the one to ask when things go wrong these days. The younger one's autistic, so doesn't grasp things so quickly, but since his brother's away at school, I don't have him here all the time when there's a hitch. Then I have to ask others, who aren't always immediately available either, and hence turn to your good self in the hope that you understand my lack of technical ability (which I'm sure's very obvious!). You've helped me several times, tyvm, and it goes without saying that I'm bound to ask again in the future, but as promised, I HAVE made a step forward by even having a machine in the house with Windows 10 installed (I asked for it). I'll plod on, slowly but surely. : )

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Icey
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Re: Windows 10 ... again

Post by Icey » 21 Sep 2015, 06:47

Just one more question please - where do you click onto to remove or add apps? Went onto "All apps" and either missed what I wanted or couldn't find it.

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yogi
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Re: Windows 10 ... again

Post by yogi » 21 Sep 2015, 10:18

Glad to see that you are experimenting Icey. Now you are just starting to get into the nitty gritty of it all. LOL What you want to do is fairly simply, once you know how to get to where you want to be. Even that is intuitive.

I told you that Microsoft did a lot to make Windows 10 look like Windows 7, but "apps" are strictly a post-Windows 7 kind of thing. While apps look like the programs us old timers are familiar with they are much different in their origins. Let it suffice to say that "apps" are given to us and maintained in that esoteric part of the Internet we know as The Cloud. Thus anything you get from the App Store, or is given to you by Microsoft as part of the system, is all coming to you from The Cloud. The only thing you need to know is that the apps are a different type of program than what you and I are accustomed to in Windows 7 and before.

The bottom line is that you need to go to two different places in order to deal with those "All apps" in the START menu. Some are from The Cloud and some are not. Those that are not are the ones you installed and did not get from the Microsoft App Store. This is really no different than what you are doing in Windows 7. When you want a program, you go to the appropriate web site and download it. That is still possible in Windows 10, but in addition to that you can go to the App Store and download ... apps.

REMOVING APPS
  • CLICK on that familiar START button in the lower left corner of your screen.
  • Click Settings
  • Click SYSTEM (Display, notifications, apps, power)
  • Click Apps & features you will now see a list of all the apps installed on your computer.
  • Click on any one of them to get the option to [Uninstall]
REMOVING PROGRAMS
If you don't see what you want to remove in the above list, then you will need to try the old Windows 7 trick. This means you will have to go to the familiar (to many of us) Control Panel and remove things from there. I'm not sure what you have on your computer in the START menu. If you have a link to the Control Panel, that is the place to start. If you do not see such a link there, then you will have to search for it. No big deal. In fact searching is now the preferred way to find programs as opposed to clicking on those icons in the Start Menu. So, let's search for the Control Panel:
  • PRESS the Windows button on your keyboard. It's that key with the Windows logo on it.
  • The START menu will appear. Without doing anything else,
  • START TYPING the words, Control Panel. As you type in characters, things will change to the search box. Above the box in which you are typing those words will appear a list of things that match the words you are typing. By the time you complete the word "Control" you should see a link to the Control Panel (Desktop app) up at the top of the list.
  • CLICK on that Control Panel link and the window for that app will open.
  • CLICK Programs and Features, and a list of programs that can be removed will appear.
ADDING APPS AND PROGRAMS
To add a Windows App, or just to see what is available, you must go to the Microsoft Windows Store. The icon for opening the store is on the bottom of your screen in that task bar, and/or it will be in your start menu list as well. Once you are in the store you can shop randomly or "search" for something specific, such as "Weather." If you search for weather you will get back a list of all the apps that deal with weather. Unfortunately, you will get a lot more too because this store is not perfectly organized just yet. Some of the apps are free to download and install, and some you must pay for. I never paid for one yet, but if you do you will need to go the whole billing application route first.

To add programs, you can go to Google and search for "Weather Programs" and get a few hundred thousand records of weather programs. Click on what looks interesting and download the program from the author's website. This is how things have been done since Windows 98.

There is a lot of description here, but don't let that intimidate you. It's a lot easier to do than it is to write about. If you click on the wrong thing and get off the beaten path, do not despair. Just close out all the windows until you have a clean desktop displayed. Then start over. It's called trial and error. :mrgreen:

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Icey
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Re: Windows 10 ... again

Post by Icey » 21 Sep 2015, 12:24

Ooh dear - but thank you. Sounds quite easy when you put it like that, but there's a "but", of course. I'll try and keep your instructions, which I'm sure work just fine when followed properly.

The thing I was thinking of, was the virus checker that was already installed. It's free for a year, after which time you either have the paid-for version or install something else. That's what we'll do, if not before.

I know that it's a case of trying new things out (which's something that I don't like doing), but let's hope that as time goes on, I'll be laughing at myself for sounding so useless. For me, I've made a massive step forward - lol - in even considering Windows 10. I know folk who've turned to Linux or who refuse to be coerced into having it, but in the end, I'm sure that there'll be massive add-ons, if I can put it like that, that'll make things even worse for complete novices, so thought it was better to try and learn a little bit about the system, for my son's sake if not my own. I'll plod on, and now and again let you know how I'm finding it.
Thanks!

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yogi
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Re: Windows 10 ... again

Post by yogi » 21 Sep 2015, 17:38

The instructions I provided are general. They are not going to be removed from this forum so that you can always come back for them if you need to. I could have been more concise and specific if I knew exactly what you were looking for. Windows 10 comes with antivirus software and other security features built in. The app's name is Windows Defender. This is free and is likely to remain free going forward. It can be disabled, but not removed.

I personally use anti-malware software (Malwarebytes) and do ad hoc virus scans as the need arises. All of the security software that I need is free and arguably better than what Microsoft provides. If you have your own preference, simply go to the web site that distributes the antivirus software you like and download it. If you want to remove what is already installed, then one of the two methods I described above will do it.

There will be a time when Windows 10, or whatever comes after it, will be a requirement. Everything up to Windows 8 has a limited support life and will be abandoned by Microsoft at some point in the future. You can switch to Linux then or learn whatever is in vogue. I'd recommend learning about Windows 10 in either case so that you can make an intelligent and informed decision later on.

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Icey
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Re: Windows 10 ... again

Post by Icey » 22 Sep 2015, 06:33

Thanks Yogi. I'll go with the latter. I may never be fully at ease with Windows 10, but knowing a BIT'S surely got to be better than nothing at all, and I've followed that path for too long.
I've printed off your instructions, but if you're not removing them from this forum, then that's helpful as well.
The anti-virus which was installed in my son's computer's Mcafee. Someone told me that it was rubbish, but now I've heard differently, from my esteemed techie friend, so you'll probably agree with him. He said that as far as he can say, this free version's no better or worse than any other, and then went on to tell me that PC makers always install loads of apps that no one wants, but the app makers pay them to do it, so of course, you get them whether you want them or not. In the trade, this's apparently known as "crapware" over here. : )

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yogi
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Re: Windows 10 ... again

Post by yogi » 22 Sep 2015, 08:20

In the past Microsoft has typically withdrawn sales of any old operating systems immediately after introduction of a new system. There is nothing to stop you from installing an older version of WIndows if you have the license, but when you purchase a computer off the shelf, it has the latest version of Windows pre-installed. The OEM vendor pays for the bulk license and gets a discount from Microsoft, but each pre-installed version of WIndows is paid for by the OEM. Thus, all that "crapware" is an attempt to recover the cost of the license for Windows. It makes good business sense to operate that way, but the end user is often confused regarding what is required and what is crap. It has long been my opinion that all antivirus software is in the latter category.

I've posted much in other forums about why I think antivirus (AV) software is crapware and won't get into much detail here. Computer AV software is very much like the flu shot you get to prevent catching influenza. The shot is for last year's virus and has no effect on what is new and going around this year. So is it really worth it? We can ask the same question about software and come up with similar answers. Given the flaws intrinsic to virus detection I prefer not to burden my system resources with software that is marginal at its best.

Two points should be kept in mind when thinking about computer security. Virus protection as good as or better than what you can purchase from a third party is built into Windows 10. It's not perfect but it is integrated to work well with the design of the operating system. It's also free and kept up to date automatically. Thus if you have no other strategy, using what was designed by Microsoft to work with it's operating systems is a logical choice. The second point is that viruses are not nearly as prominant as is malware. A virus is destructive but malware may not be. A virus may disable your browser, for example, but malware will steal your identity and never give a hint that it did its dirty work behind your back. I do endorse using malware protection and to use it on demand, not in the automatic mode. If I do happen to catch a virus, there are programs that can clean it after the fact. Why take that chance? Because that is exactly what you are doing when you buy McAffee or any other commercial AV software. There is no protection against zero day viruses. There are containment strategies and ways to lock down your system, but they are all invasive and affect performance negatively.

Obviously my technical skills allow me to be comfortable being reactive rather than pro-active. But, I have yet to learn of an AV program that can provide 100% protection against new viruses.

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Kellemora
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Re: Windows 10 ... again

Post by Kellemora » 22 Sep 2015, 22:04

I learned early on to get my Windows disks from a Repair Shop.
Dealer Install disks are made to install Windows without user intervention, and they have NO unwanted garbage.

I have Windows XP-Home, XP-Pro, and XP-Pro-MCE, as all Clean Dealer Install Disks.
Most dealers will not tell you about these disks. Some will actually make their own ISO's to save time and headaches on installs.

The problem is, now that XP has reached its End of Life, you cannot install a copy and get it registered, nor download drivers you don't already have or have other sources for them.

Cloning and old HD to a new HD for use in another computer will often stall, because it cannot fetch the needed drivers to Start on a different machine.
Yogi may know more about this than I do, and I could be in error. But I've not been able to take my wife's Windows XP-Home on an IDE drive, and clone it to a SATA drive and get it to work on a different computer.
I have been able to clone one from a SATA drive to a SATA drive and at least got it booted up.

In the old days, 3.11 days and very early XP days. Once I got a computer up and running with all the programs I wanted in it and everything working perfectly. I never upgraded anything in it afterward, because the minute you upgraded one thing, then everything else needed upgraded too.

The downside to this is, I used some of these old computers for so long, that when I did upgrade when I got a newer computer, my datafiles were no longer compatible with the current latest release of a program, because I skipped too many upgrades of their program in between.

For example: My Family Tree Maker genealogy program. It works perfect in the existing version of the program I have. But cannot be read in a newer version. They no longer have the ability to upgrade from version 2 to version 18. I would have to find a copy of version 6, which was the last version with a 2 to 6 converter. Then once converted to version 6, I would have to find a version 9 or 10, and hope the upgrade to that version works, and if so, then I could upgrade to version 18.
I did find a version 4 which let me upgrade and make a generic version which can be read by Gedcom, however, it does not contain all the data, and took several tries for it to catch what it should have in only one try. Very lossy conversion to Gedcom.

Back in the days of the lousy 3-1/2" floppies, I sent all of my data to Broaderbund, and they could read none of it, and they would not accept the reliable 5-1/4" floppies. This is one of the reasons I never upgraded. Now those old computers are dead and long gone, hi hi...

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yogi
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Re: Windows 10 ... again

Post by yogi » 23 Sep 2015, 08:48

Computer technology is quite the dilemma. It gives us fantastic ways to handle and process information that only get better over time. The growth and expansion of technology forces us to make decisions about when to convert our own experiences to the next level. The dilemma is that the next level is not compatible with the previous level. That would not be a problem if we did not have to interact with all that cutting edge technology. The world of information handling is growing at an exponential rate and the only question today is when to convert, not if we should.

Say what you will about Microsoft, but it is one of the major players in computing. Even a corporation that dominated the world with its power and innovation can make costly mistakes by upgrading too late. Windows 10 is their response to past errors and we are all paying the price for that. People accuse big corporations of making changes merely to force us peons to buy the latest and greatest technology. I do not believe corporations like Microsoft are pushing the movement. I believe it's the end users demanding more and pulling the corporations into the frenzy. Microsoft is a good example of how this works. If they did not make the move (belatedly) to Windows 10 technology, thew would out of the game altogether in just a few years. Thus if Microsoft has to bite the bullet and move with the crowd, that should tell us something about our own future in computing and data handling.

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Icey
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Re: Windows 10 ... again

Post by Icey » 23 Sep 2015, 12:09

Thank you.

I know you posted a link to Malwarebytes some time ago Yogi. Is there another one you could put up for me to install please? I had it myself for a while, and it seemed fine, but I'm scared of clicking onto a rogue site, if that explains it well enough. : (

The thing is, if it's put onto my son's new laptop, will the fact that McAfee AV's there interfere with it, or vice versa? Double : (

Oh dear, I have to smile at my simplicity. Sorry.

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Kellemora
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Re: Windows 10 ... again

Post by Kellemora » 23 Sep 2015, 15:47

I have to agree with Yogi that it is the demands of the people who use the equipment wanting bigger and better and faster that drove computing so fast and furious.

But by the same token, advertising more so than quality is what gave Mickey$oft the edge of Apple/MAC...

Apple had a good idea by placing their machines in every school they could afford to do so. Because people don't like change, so if they cut their teeth on Apples, they wouldn't like PCs. But it backfired.
Mickey$oft advertised so heavily and made special offers to big business, that the PC quickly dominated the market.

Apples and MACs were far superior to PCs in many ways, and the programs more robust.
For those familiar with Apple and MAC computers, being forced to use PCs was like stepping back in time to crude methods and poor functionality.

But what can you do when business requires you to match what they are using, and conversion technology was not yet available. Everybody was doing their own thing, and they did not mix and match at all.

Mickey$oft soon had the larger base of 3rd party programs, and volume sales kept prices dropping. MAC was unable to compete price wise, and program development companies had to write for PCs to make a profit.

This is how Mickey$oft soon dominated the market! It had nothing to do with quality, and everything to do with advertising and promotions. PCs just could not do what MACs could do, but there was always some workaround.

I know WANG is long defunct, and after owning and working with WANG for several years, and now looking back on how they did things vs the way MAC, Windows, or even Linux does things. I truly believe they had the proper margin, just not enough customers to stay afloat.
We never had to reboot our Wang VS system in all the years we ran it. Their smaller but more powerful Wang OIS system only had to be rebooted if there was a core change, which only happened twice that I remember.

I'm not a computer programmer, nor do I understand much about what is under the hood of computer.
But from a lay persons point of view, they are all doing it wrong, and this is why all of them have so many problems.
Why does Windows use a Registry? Why does Linux place drivers in the Kernel?
Why do you have to reboot Windows for every little thing you add? Linux got away from that ordeal!
MACs are more like Linux, but it's been years since I've used one, so don't know their quirks anymore.

Why are not all drivers stored in their own file and the Kernel CALL which driver it needs?
After all, programs call which dependency they need. Dependencies are great as each program doesn't have to store it's own. But only great if they don't change how they work which messes up older programs.

Google messing with Pepper Flash is a good example of a good thing going bad and getting worse.
The last known working version of Pepper Flash is the May 12, 2015 version. Every update since then is missing the lowest zoom level, which is required for many of the games that are run on Flash.
If you are running Linux and Google Chrome, you can roll back to the May 12, 2015 version and be A-OK.
But if you are using Adobe or Shockwave versions of Flash, you will get the error message that it is out of date and you must upgrade to the horrible new version. This is NOT the way to handle business folks.

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yogi
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Re: Windows 10 ... again

Post by yogi » 23 Sep 2015, 17:09

MALWAREBYTES FOR ICEY: https://www.malwarebytes.org/downloads/

icey
The rule of thumb is that if you decide to use antivirus software, use only one version of it. In my opinion it really doesn't matter if you use McAfee or somebody else. Just don't have Norton (for example) and McAfee both installed and running at the same time. Pick one antivirus program and stick with it.

If you go my route and choose not to use any antivirus software, then I can give you instructions on what to download when you think you might need to scan for viruses on a one time basis.

McAfee and Malwarebytes should get along together even when running side by side. They are both looking for something different. The former looks for malware and the latter for viruses. That is a generalization because there are exceptions where it's hard to tell the difference between the two. Regardless, I think you would do fine to install both Malwarebytes and McAfee and use them on demand as opposed to letting them protect your computer automatically. If you choose to let them both run automatic checks on your computer and then have performance problems, turn one of them off and use it in the manual mode as required.


Gary
Steve Jobs and Bill Gates had two distinctly different ideas about how to develop and promote operating systems. Gates obviously had the better business acumen because to this day Apply does not license it's OS to anybody as was Steve Job's original vision. Apple always was and still is closed ended and didn't stand a chance against Microsoft's more flexible and open policies. To say that advertising is what Microsoft was good at is correct. But to say that is the only reason for it's success is misguided. Microsoft Windows played well in the business and government environments and was a lot cheaper to maintain too. Windows was highly customizable but Apple only worked with Apple hardware. This is a lovely way to make sure your operating system remains pure, but it is terrible business sense. The only reason Apple is at the top of the heap today is because Microsoft dropped the ball - read that to say Bill Gates retired. Windows 10 is doing pretty well, but it remains to be seen if Microsoft can dominate in the mobile marketplace.

As to why various operating systems do what it is they do internally, think about copyrights and the "not invented here" syndrome. There is no technical reason why all commercial and personal devices cannot be run off one common operating system. If that were a reality, however, then there would be little competition and even less incentive to advance the state of the art. Being one up on your competitor is what it's all about.

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Icey
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Re: Windows 10 ... again

Post by Icey » 23 Sep 2015, 17:53

Oh NOOOOoooo!! Just lost the reply I was about to send!????

OK., well first of all, thank you Yogi, for the link and the tips. We don't have Norton installed anywhere, and in fact, most of our large computer shops're now selling machines with McAfee AV installed instead. It seems that Norton gave rise to many complaints, although I don't know anything about it.

If I need any help with anything, I'll run the problem by you, but I'm assuming that the new laptop's been set to run automatically on McAfee, and hadn't even thought about running it on demand until you mentioned it. How do I do that, or check to see what it's doing? I'm still not keen on doing anything on this new laptop yet. Windows 10 still makes me feel uneasy, but I'm determined to get over my phobia eventually!

By the way, are we backward over here? 3/4 of British businesses still run on XP. Must admit that I felt easy with that on my home computer. When I was at work for a few short months, I know we had IBM machines. No idea whether they ran on Linux or which OS was installed, but I didn't like it! LOL!

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yogi
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Re: Windows 10 ... again

Post by yogi » 24 Sep 2015, 08:51

It should be possible to recover a reply by taking your browser back to a previous page, unless you erased what you typed in by accident. One way to get around those accidental erasures is to preview your reply a few times before you complete your response. For example, preview it after each paragraph. Those previews will be stored in your browser and you should be able to retrieve them until you close the browser altogether.

I was using Norton as an example of another popular AV program, but any one of them should not be run in parallel. In fact the built in Windows Defender does just as much for you as McAfee so that there is no need to have both of them going. But, I'm not going to tell you how to shut off Windows Defender (unless you already know) because it will give you nagging notifications that you dared to do such a thing. There are ways to turn off the nags too, but for now all you are interested in is getting some hands on experience with Windows 10. The complications can be faced later.

Unfortunately I don't have a ready answer regarding how to switch off McAfee and go into it's manual mode. One reason for that is I do not know which version of McAfee you have pre-installed. They make several kinds of security software and I can only guess you have the latest antivirus version. Even if you can assure me about what you have, I don't know what to tell you because I don't use the program. I would imagine there are settings and in that settings panel you would be able to select what McAfee actually does. If you can find a way in the settings to disable it, that is what I would recommend - actually I would uninstall it. As mentioned above, you will not be completely without protection because Microsoft sets it's Defender software to run automatically. That will still be protecting you at least as well as McAfee.

It's not backward in any sense of the word to run a business from old obsoleted software such as Windows XP. Businesses do what is economical and consistent with their needs. If they can conduct business as usual with an older and well known operating system, why bother to pay for upgraded software and the training of the people who will maintain it? The benefits of that kind of expense may not be worth switching. However, as is the case with personal computers, there will be a point in time when Windows XP simply will not work. Take for example Windows 98. I kept that on my computer for over ten years, but it had no idea what a USB connection was nor could I find anything that would force it to recognize them. Many of the web sites would not run slow enough for Windows 98 when I converted over to Vista. Those types of challenges will face businesses using Windows XP too.

As for you, I think you might benefit from looking at it all as merely learning how to use a computer. Don't bother yourself with the pros and cons of the software. There are way too many conflicting opinions out there to misguide you. And yes, I have my own opinions here too. Life changes on a daily basis and you adapt to it unconsciously. Computers are just a small part of the general melee we call life.

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Icey
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Re: Windows 10 ... again

Post by Icey » 24 Sep 2015, 11:05

Thanks, you're right. I'll go slowly, and learn things bit by bit, but probably not as swiftly as I'd be able to if I had Windows 10 installed on my own computer. At the moment, my son doesn't want anyone else touching his laptop but himself - with being his new toy, and all that! I told him that I'd like to take a look, and have done on 2-3 occasions, but it's not like I'm facing it on a daily basis for getting on with what I have to.

No, I don't know how to shut off Windows Defender. I'll leave it. : )

As for taking my browser back a page, I tried that - twice - and my reply'd gone. I must've inadvertently deleted it I suppose, but I don't remember doing so. One minute it was there, and the next it wasn't. I've also had that happen occasionally when I've been typing emails out. Then I haven't been able to find them. I'm sure the things are still floating around somewhere, but ......

Anyway, thank you for your help, and all that you've told me HAS helped.

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Kellemora
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Re: Windows 10 ... again

Post by Kellemora » 24 Sep 2015, 19:50

Yep Mickey$oft had the edge over Apple due to their policies.
But even back in the early early days of computing. Apple still made the wiser choices, even though they wouldn't let anyone else make hardware for them.
Apple chose the then powerful 6502 microprocessor, and Gates the PITA 8080a microprocessor.

I think I mentioned Beagle Bros once offered me a job IF I would move to their HQ.
I was getting the 6502 to do things the manufacturer never mentioned it could do.
I figured if I did take the job, I would be soon ousted, since I didn't know diddly about programming anything other than in simple Basic. But Apple's Basic allowed Peeks, Pokes, and Calls to any area of the processor, if you knew how to get into it and were not afraid to try unconventional things.
I didn't know what was conventional or unconventional so just tried everything to see what would happen. Sometimes the results were amazing. Back then there was not a 5-1/4 floppy I couldn't copy because I broke every security technique. I think the hardest was spiraled disks, but I eventually figured it out.
As soon as processors advanced, I was sunk like a leaky tugboat with no bucket to bail with.

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yogi
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Re: Windows 10 ... again

Post by yogi » 24 Sep 2015, 21:24

Apple Computer had some interesting toys back in the old days. Hypertext was one of them. They ultimately figured out it was a mistake to let people program their own computers and stopped supporting hypertext.

Apple did indeed choose the Motorola processor over Intel, and for a long time was considered the quintessential graphics processing machine. But that was a mistake too because Motorola dropped the ball and sold off their semiconductor business to Japan. Apple then switch unceremoniously to Intel and lost their lead in the only area in which they were ahead.

Apple is a viable company today only because Bill Gates saved them from going bankrupt. He personally intervened after a promise from Apple to drop their lawsuit against Microsoft for using Windows - something Apple was trying to claim they had the copyrights to. There would be no Micorsoft today if Apple persisted, but they gave up the fight.

In every way Microsoft had the edge from a business standpoint. Apple was far more innovative but had no inclination to market their product beyond personal computers which was only a budding market at the time. Microsoft eventually added that market to their business and government customers because Apple refused to cater to the wants of the masses. Thus Microsoft walked away with the entire desktop market. Jobs and Wazniak gave it away. Microsoft did not have to fight for it.

So now, finally, Apple is showing us what it can do when Bill Gates isn't around to make the decisions any more. Unfortunately Steve Jobs isn't around either to steer Apple in the right direction. We will see how well they can hold onto their lead in mobile devices. I'm not placing any bets on that one.

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Kellemora
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Re: Windows 10 ... again

Post by Kellemora » 25 Sep 2015, 20:20

I have a hunch the entire computing industry is going to make a major change, not only in how computers actually function, but also in how we do most of our work.
We are already seeing a small glimpse of this with cloud computing.
We saw bit of a glimpse with dumb terminals running from servers with only a Boot Rom LAN installed.

In a manner similar to how we use web browsers, almost all of our work will require a connection to a server which provides the programs we use, only access to the programs will require something be installed in the computer, if even at all. Sorta like doing things on-line in your web browser, except these will be full-scale major programs, that instead of being installed in your computer, you will merely access the programs on-line, probably for a monthly fee.
There won't be programs to download and install, other than the basic operating system.
The brand and type of computer you have won't make a bit of difference anymore, because all you are sending out is keystrokes, which every type of computer has the ability to do.

I know at work, I have access to several very powerful programs run directly on their mainframe. Many are so complex, they would never run a PC no matter how powerful it is, because it has to access so many different things in the process.
I see these programs becoming available to everyone as on-line programs offered by major corporations, but I wonder at what cost, and if you can only rent one for a month or so when you need it.

Not to get boring on the topic. But currently, this is where Linux shines.
You want to design a new room in your house, a complex room like a kitchen or bathroom and need powerful programs to do so.
To do this on a Windows machine, you would need to buy CAD/CAM, and possibly PhotoShop, at roughly 900 bucks each. Or some other home architectural design program, you will use only once.

Or rely on Linux's free Qcad and Gimp to get the job done, or one of the other architectural programs. Many of Linux's best programs are now ported over for Windows users to enjoy at no cost.

But without someone to support the cost, they can't keep doing it for free forever, or build up the quality of heavily funded proprietary software.

However, if programs were available on-line to use for a small fee, I think they will make more money than selling the same programs, simply because, who will pay big bucks to buy something they will only use once or twice, when many more people may pay to use it while they need it, rather than not use it at all.

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