Windows 10 Update

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yogi
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Windows 10 Update

Post by yogi » 11 Jul 2015, 15:47

By now you all must be thinking I can't say enough about Windows 10. Well I can't. But, this thread is slightly different than my previous reviews in that I'll get into some of the things that are not so swell about Microsoft's latest brainchild. Overall Windows 10 gets a 'yes' vote :thumbu: from me. But there are some serious problems with it. They may be self-inflicted. Maybe not.

UPDATES
I've signed on to the Windows Insider program and thus became what they call a beta tester of the Windows 10 Pro Insider Preview version of their next operating system. This entitles me to download software that I know has bugs and untested features. I also know that Microsoft will be logging my keystrokes and storing a lot of data about my activities within their new software. None of this bothered me because I have a background in software development and know why they would be doing all this. Conspiracy theorists notwithstanding. There are two levels of testing, and I chose the fast lane instead of the slow lane. That means I get the latest builds before they have been tested thoroughly by the software developers. In return Microsoft gets my feedback early in the development cycle so that they can clean things up a bit for the next release. Even so, the fast lane has not been all that fast until very recently. New software has been forthcoming about once a month since last November. Now that the final release is just over two weeks away, the builds are being released a little quicker. That's because there is less new stuff being put in and more refinement of what they know works.

Each new build, be it fast or slow lane, is pushed via the native Windows Update application. This is the same Control Panel update applet we all know and love from previous versions of Windows with one exception. Automatic updates cannot be turned off. The theory is that you will leave your computer on all the time and Microsoft will update it at some point during the day when your computer usage is light. When you are asleep, for example. They keep track of what you are doing so that they know what is best for your network loading. Given that each new build is a complete operating system of nearly 4GB in size (just what would fit on one DVD disk), it seems like a good idea to not bog down my Internet connection for the 2 hours it would take to download such a monster. While all that sounds rather benevolent of Microsoft, they fail to realize that I turn off my computer at the end of my day. I don't need to waste energy nor do I want to keep my computers alive when I'm not there to watch them. This means I have to go into the update applet and manually request a search for any possible updates. If updates are found, I have no choice as to when they will be downloaded. It's done on the spot when I make the inquiry. Thus, whether it's convenient for me or not, the two hour download will begin as soon as I ask if it's available.

But wait ... since I'm using the computer, Windows 10 considers it not idle. The download will proceed while the computer is being used, but at a reduced rate. They deliberately throttle it back to something near dial-up speed. What would be a two hour download at 5MBs turns out to be nearly 24 hours at 90-100KBs. If by some chance the download does not complete, it starts over from the beginning at the next opportunity. Thus, if I spend 6 hours waiting for my fast lane build, and happen to shut down the system because I'm going to bed for the day, all of it is lost. When I know there is a mammoth download from Microsoft in queue, I will start the process before breakfast. Windows 10 may or may not think the computer is being used, and frequently it will start off at my maximum connection speed of 6MBs. I smile as I watch the network traffic monitor and then get some breakfast. When I return the computer is in its sleep mode and all download activity has ceased. :wtf: They told me it will download overnight unattended if I don't shut off my computer, but here I am ignoring it during the daytime and it ceases to download altogether. The good news is that when I nudge it, the download continues from where it left off. The not so good news is that since I woke up the operating system it thinks it is in use and throttles back the download speed. Fortunately, somewhere between six and eight hours later the full download completes if I keep nudging the system just the right way. The lesson in all this playing around is that there is no way to stop the system from downloading once it gets started.

MBR WARS
I won't go into my frustrations over how it takes the better part of an hour to install the latest builds. It can take longer. Essentially it's a clean install and I expect it to take a while. However, just like Linux, Microsoft thinks they should have the authority to take over my entire computer merely because I'm installing their software on it. My computers have the ability to run one of several different operating systems that are installed on one or more hard drives. Nobody, including Linux, encourages this, but they all support it. There is after all a legitimate need for such things out in the wild. When turning on the power the first question from the computer is, "what operating system do you want me to run?" Answering this question involves a little dialog wherein the user will pick what they want from a list on the screen. Linux uses something called GRUB and Microsoft uses BCD (Boot Configuration Data), both of which record instructions on the very first track of your storage device, known as the MBR (Master Boot Record).

If you only used one operating system in your entire computer career, then none of the above makes sense. It just boots up as expected. But, if you have Windows installed and want to add Linux as an alternate choice at boot time, a rather irritating problem rears it's ugly head. Linux will erase whatever Microsoft placed in the MBR and put GRUB there instead. GRUB is kind enough to let me know it can boot up Windows on demand, but it is freaking arrogant to assume I want GRUB to give me that choice. If I want to keep the Windows BCD screen, I'm out of luck. I have to do something very weird to keep the two versions of boot screens separate. Windows is no different. Linux and its GRUB is installed on my laptop. When I put Windows 10 on that computer, the Redmond gang erased GRUB and put their own firmware into the MBR. Windows, unlike Linux, does not recognize anything but Windows. That means by default Windows 10 (and every other version of Windows) prevents you from seeing anything but Microsoft products at boot time. This is even more arrogant that Linux, but in the case of Windows I understand why they do it. Each time an important update comes along, Windows needs to reboot. They don't want you flipping through a menu of alternate operating systems in order to reboot. It has to be done clean and smoothly and unattended. Fair enough, inconvenient as it is. I found a way around this problem, but I won't get into it right now. Suffice it to say that once Windows 10 is installed, it does it's damnedest to take over everything.

S4 RECOVERY MODE
Before you ever see the list of available operating systems, the firmware on the motherboard is invoked. It used to be called BIOS but these days it's a Unified Extensible Firmware Interface or UEFI. This firmware does a lot of low level stuff that a normal human being doesn't need to know about. One of it's responsibilities is to keep track of all the hardware you have installed and to point you in the right direction for booting up your operating system(s). If you hit the right keys on your keyboard, you can stop the UEFI boot process and manually select what hardware memory device you want to go to and boot. It might be an external hard drive, an optical reader, a USB memory stick, or one of several hard drives installed internally. Normally one of those is picked as a default and no further action is required. But, when you want to get an operating system from some other place than the default, hit f12 (in my case) and you get a list of all attached bootable devices. This is valuable only for geeks.

Windows 10 plays havoc with this ability to select hardware. The reason for the havoc is because even when you tell Windows 10 to shut down, it doesn't. It looks like it shut down, but what really happened is that it went into hibernation. When a computer hibernates it stores the state of the computer in a safe place so that when you un-hibernate, the system returns right back to where you left it. The way it goes about recovering is through UEFI/BIOS by invoking the S4 recovery mode. When in this mode UEFI knows not to poll anything for bootable software. It just goes directly to the device that sent the hibernate command. Microsoft does this so that Windows 10 does not have to turn on from a cold start but simply recovers from hibernation. Clever, but a PITA for geeky people who want to select their boot device manually. They don't get the opportunity no matter what keys are pressed because S4 recovery does not allow choices.

I used to hard crash Windows 10 to prevent it from hibernating. That ultimately corrupts the operating system. Since I got tired of constantly reinstalling and then updating, I found a better way to avoid the unwillingness of Windows 10 to shut down for real. Simply tell it to RESTART. This prevents hibernation during shut down and takes you back to the turn on state of UEFI. At that point I hit the power switch to stop the rebooting. Next time around there is no S4 recovery to deal with. Some folks swear this is Microsoft's way of forcing you to use only Windows on any given UEFI equipped computer. I don't like what Windows is doing, but they are not conspiring to do anything. They are just plain stupid and inconsiderate.

CLOUD COMPUTING
Windows 10 requires that you log into an account that is associated with the computer and software. This nuisance procedure, unfortunately, cannot be avoided if you want to use all the features of the operating system. It's something that every mobile device requires these days. Microsoft likes to say it's needed for security purposes, but the real reason is to give them some assurance of who is on the computer and accountable for buying stuff from their store. It also allows them to store information about how you use the computer up in their cloud system. The cloud is not an entirely bad idea because it allows for synchronization of all your devices. You can save your browser bookmarks from your tablet, for example, and they will propagate to your smart phone and your laptop and your desktop (if you still have one of those) without intervention on your part. The glitch is that all those devices have to be on the same cloud - yes there are many clouds. Microsoft has "One Drive" for all this synchronization business and it will update your X-box, your Surface, and your Windows phone. If you happen to have Apple hardware or Android, then you are SOL. None of them talk to each other. So the net effect (no pun intended) to all this cloud computing is to steer the user into using one brand across the spectrum of mobile devices. Again you might be smelling conspiracy here, but it's a technical necessity until the time comes when all mobile devices will be able to use the same software to communicate with each other. The battle for world dominance has been going on for several years now, and Microsoft is just getting into the game after Apple and Google took half their business away. Because of this lateness in coming to the game there are glitches in One Drive and very little of value to choose from in Microsoft's app store. It may all change down the line, but for now it's playing catch up and may not be worth the effort for a lot of people who already have the competition's mobile devices.

BACKUP AND RECOVERY
In case you have been away from the planet for a few years and did not notice, the way people use computers here in 2015 isn't what it used to be. There are enough of us old timers around, but the writing on the wall is clear. Operating system software is free, but anything useful or productive comes out of the cloud and the store behind a given product. Thus, functionality is added to the basic operating system by purchasing apps - some are free. Microsoft is making a huge effort to appease us old timers by keeping the old style side by side with the new apps in Windows 10. The hopes are that the transition for us XP and Win7 die-hards will be made easier this way. Success depends heavily on the app store having some compelling software, and access to the app store is critical for that.

The app store is itself an application. It's not needed for the operating system to work, but you can't add any cool stuff to the bare bones without it. Thus Microsoft does not allow you to uninstall the App Store app. You can't uninstall it from Android or Apple either. That does not mean it cannot be done. As I became more and more frustrated with the half-functional updating service on Windows 10 the operating system became corrupt. There is a recovery applet in the Control Panel but it's a bit different than what the old Windows offers. One of the options now is to blow away all the settings you might have accidentally changed :whistle: and to reset the system to some pristine default condition. Awesome Idea considering I could not restore from an image or a previous restore point (more details to follow). So I clicked the "clear" button and was duly notified that the system will never be the same again. It will now erase anything and everything I might have done and go back to some prenatal condition. I agreed just to see what will happen. Well, as promised, everything disappeared. All the apps I installed, the extra software, and any system settings I changed all went back to whatever was safely hidden away in the system recovery partition. I fixed the problem I was having, but created a new one. All the apps got blown away, including the App Store app. So now I had no way to download the apps I once had. A search of the online forums revealed that this App Store app cannot be removed by mere mortals. Plus, no matter where I looked, I could not find a way to reinstall what "could not be removed." After much wailing and gnashing of teeth I had to reinstall the entire operating system from scratch. The good news here is that I had downloaded an iso image of it just the day before. After doing a clean install everything was back to normal along with the default apps. I still had to reinstall what I had before the crash, but at least I was able to do it now.

Backing up a Windows 10 system has a few nice features. A history of your files can be configured, for example, so that you can retrieve any files that may have been lost. That is the theory. In my case I was storing the history on my NAS off line. This worked fine until the next fast lane release wherein the name of my computer was changed. Any history files, images, or restore points made previously were lost. Also, because I configured my Windows 10 to boot from GRUB, backups to a network drive were prohibited. This is something built into every operating system since Vista and it took forever to figure out. Network backups are only allowed if you boot from the BSD Microsoft hides somewhere inside it's bowels. The net effect of all this is that I cannot do a reliable network backup of my system because I'm not playing by Microsoft's rules. The solution, obviously, is to use third party backup software and not the native crap Microsoft provides.

DO I REALLY WORK FOR MICROSOFT?
In spite of all the above, I still think Windows 10 is a candidate for being an excellent operating system. My opinion is derived from the fact that I've been using it since November last. The side effect of beta testing is that I'm familiar with it and am exposed to the hype built into the product on a daily basis. Having all this experience and knowing what is possible, why would I not recommend this product to anyone? Yeah, right. That is precisely why Microsoft broke with tradition and released beta versions of it's forthcoming operating system. Us beta testers, so they hope, will be their biggest promoters.

Being the cynic that I am, it's hard to believe that we are just over two weeks away from a final release. There are many more things wrong with Windows 10 than I have mentioned here. I don't see how some of these basic issues can be resolved in a mere two weeks time. This leads me to believe that what we are beta testing is only part of a greater whole that is being developed behind the scenes and not visible to the general public. The real Windows 10 will be released at the end of the month. At least I hope that is the case.

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Kellemora
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Re: Windows 10 Update

Post by Kellemora » 11 Jul 2015, 18:59

Due to the high usage of mobile devices, it is imperative many corporations change how they operate.
This includes the workstations in use within their own facilities.

Where the frau used to work before she retired, they are one of the first on the list to get the new IBM Z13 Mainframe.

I asked one of the IT guys what they are going to do about all their machines on the floor.
He said they won't be changing anything out there anytime soon, but they will be more lucrative on what machines their employees may chose to use. If they like MAC they can use a MAC, if they like Windows, they can use any flavor of Windows, it won't matter anymore.

I also asked if they were moving up to Win 10 when it comes out. On company owned equipment, the answer was a flat out en oh NO. With XP reaching its end, they have been converting most of the floor machines to either Win NT or Win 7, or making them dumb terminals using only the server provided software.

He made a comment almost similar to yours. We cannot allow Microsoft to take control of our business or know its customers transactions. Would you want 50 million credit card transactions a day floating around at the whim of Microsoft? From what I've heard, businesses will be most reluctant to even consider Win 10.
Not my words, those were the IT guys words about Win 10. Not geared for corporate environment use.

TTUL
Gary

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yogi
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Re: Windows 10 Update

Post by yogi » 12 Jul 2015, 14:57

Every enterprise has unique needs and they generally leave it up to the IT department to decide how to fill the information services aspect of the business. In addition to hardware that can do the job, the main interests of IT professionals centers around cost, maintenance, support, and security. While a mainframe may have the capability to handle anything attached to it, it is only cost effective when standardized on a single platform wherever possible. This simplifies training, maintenance, and support. Regardless of what platform(s) are in use throughout the enterprise, security will always be an issue. This is probably the weakest aspect of cloud computing.

Windows 10, and most likely the other popular operating systems as well, does not require a particular cloud in order to function. Many enterprises are making their own apps to be used on their in house clouds. The operating system of choice doesn't matter much in these cases. As it happens the new Windows business model is to offer a single operating system for all hardware platforms. This is probably it's greatest advantage. The cost to the general public will be free, but license fees will likely apply to enterprise editions of Windows 10 because the revenue from Windows Store sales will be negligible. Things like Office Suites will still be available as stand alone software. Thus, as far as costs for licensing goes, it's a wash. But only one type of license will now be required on new Windows installations.

Maintenance and support is greatly simplified when a single operating system is used across the board. Training people to use it and maintain it is also made easier when only one operating system has to be learned. FOSS type software might have an edge on licensing costs, but I seriously doubt that any IT organization worth it's salt is going to rely on web based forums for support. Microsoft is highly organized and there when you need them for support. You can argue against it for the up front costs, but in the long term your systems will be down less and up quickly with paid backup. Customers will greatly appreciate this feature.

Security is becoming more and more complicated as the hackers become better funded and more sophisticated. Microsoft has improved the security features in Windows 10 to make it easier for application developers to eliminate bugs before they are installed. I'm sure this won't be a deterrent for future attacks, but Windows 10 is way ahead of XP and even Windows 7 in that regard.

It's hard for me to understand why an enterprise with obsoleted software would prefer to keep it when something better and backward compatible is available. The cost of upgrading used to be the argument against switching, but I'm not sure it will be an issue if Windows 10 is free for enterprise use. But again, each organization has to decide on their own what is best and consistent with corporate policy. No IT group I ever knew about jumped into a new operating system when it was first released. Perhaps small businesses can afford to do that kind of thing, but large companies and governments usually wait until a product matures before switching. I think once Windows 10 reaches that level of maturity, it will be difficult to justify running the old systems. It certainly will be interesting to watch how this all develops.

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Kellemora
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Re: Windows 10 Update

Post by Kellemora » 13 Jul 2015, 16:17

I agree Yogi!

Most vendors to business write their programs to function on the floor using Windows computers.
That being said, it is getting increasingly more rare to find a computer on the floor at any business.
Perhaps a super micro-computer built inside the monitor designed to go with the system a company is running.

I think my small doctors office with four doctors is about the last one left that has a PC in each examination room.
However, looking at the screen, you could not tell what OS they are running, because the software is a package deal.
You see this most often in use in public at restaurants.
Many don't have a keyboard or mouse, and the terminals are only used to input order data via a touch screen.

Going way back to when we had a Wang VS system, we did not have PC boxes at the workstations, as came about in later years when everyone switched to servers for data, and the PCs for the programs, rather than working directly from the servers. My brother went that route because it saved him a ton of money.

I see the need for mainframe computers in large businesses decreasing instead of increasing. But some businesses just can't get by with a massive server type of setup. They need both the mainframe and the servers in combination.
What type of OS or computer is used to feed the data to the server is pretty much not so important these days.

Plus, things keep getting smaller and smaller, so those monitors could have a full-blown computer inside of them too, and not be just another dumb terminal with a boot rom, hi hi...

It will be interesting to see how Windows 10 pans out. The concept is a good one!

TTUL
Gary

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Kellemora
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Re: Windows 10 Update

Post by Kellemora » 09 Aug 2015, 20:26

Picked up a little toy desktop computer for the frau Friday during our tax free weekend.
Looks like the hardware is not upgradable, no PCI slots, no extra ports left over for anything, hi hi...
But heck, a quad core Intel with 4 gigs of ram and a 500 gig HD for 250 bucks with Windoze 8.1 upgraded to Windows 10 on install.
I played with Windows 8.1 just long enough to get everything working as it should before doing a clean reinstall selecting the Windows 10 option.
After it finally got done installing (a little over two hours), and we gave it all the personal info it wanted, I spent the next FOUR HOURS trying to get it to do much of anything. Took two hours of reading help files and trying things just to change the WORKGROUP name to our LAN, which after two more hours, it still cannot see.
I figured, once it did, it would say something like "you don't have permission to view this resource" but so far, I've not made it far enough along.
It does almost NOTHING the installed Windows10 tutorial which came with the install says it does.

To appease the frau, I downloaded and installed Firefox, the separate Flash Player for Firefox, and Google Chrome, so she could at least play her on-line game to see if it is any faster than her OLD single core 1 gig machine with 1 gig of memory. So for, it doesn't appear to be any faster. I have a really old computer up here which was hers two computers ago, with only 1 gig of memory, single core also, and it is twice as fast as her last new computer. Probably because I'm running Linux which is a whole lot faster than Windoze.

She didn't want a new computer, but is now doing things the old XP machine can't handle properly, plus she has a new piece of hardware, a gift from her son, which will not work on XP, no drivers. Has drivers for 7, 8, & 8.1 though. Works great on our Win7 netbook, and on the Win8.1 before I updated it to Win10. This new computer does not have mouse and keyboard receptacles, uses the only two rear USB ports available, so her wireless mouse and keyboard cannot be used with it, and her existing KVM cannot be used with it.

The sad thing is, I probably could have gotten a much better computer for the same price, instead of buying a retail off the shelf jobbie. Impulse purchases are normally a bad deal and a foul ball all the way around, hi hi...

Unless we can get the LAN working on it, she will go back to using her old XP computer before the end of the day tomorrow for sure. They should have named it Windoze ZERO, hi hi... So far, NOT a happy camper with Win10, and neither is the frau, and if momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!

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yogi
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Re: Windows 10 Update

Post by yogi » 10 Aug 2015, 08:52

It's unfortunate for you to be experiencing such basic problems with Windows 10. That kind of thing will leave a lasting bad impression about a basically good product. I have been amazed at the ease and timelines of the network handling ability I found in Windows 10, and it's hard to believe you are having trouble. OK, not TOO hard to believe. :mrgreen:

Windows 10 discovered my home network, my NAS, and my wireless HP printer without me doing anything but clicking the network icons that normally lead me to such places. I was required to enter security codes, but that was it. The access time to my NAS is astounding. It's quicker than Windows 7 and I don't know how they do it. Likewise the printer was detected and the proper drivers were installed automatically. I didn't get all the bells and whistles that the official HP software offers, but I didn't have to hunt down drivers in CUPS either.

Needless to say, cuddling up to Windows 10 would be a lot easier if you had a lot of Windows 7/8 experience first. All the previous controls are there in Windows 10, but in different places with new interfaces. I think Microsoft wanted to make it easier, but what is easy for a computer scientist who works for Microsoft isn't going to go well with people like you and me and your wife. I might need a little more information than what you gave here, but basically you need to call up the Control Panel and get into the Network Discovery applet. In there you should see your network if you have network discovery turned on. The glitch is that there are two classes of networks, as far as Windows is concerned. There is Public and Private. In previous OS's you could select what you wanted on a given network, but here it's all done for you automatically. Expand the public network listing and turn off network discovery there - if it's not done already. Then open the private network listing and turn it on there. That will switch your connection to private and make it visible on your network.

I've not messed with changing the domain name - the default WORKGROUP works fine for me. Thus I would have to do a little bit of looking to find out how to do it. However, Cortana/search is amazing when it works right (which isn't all that often, by the way). All you need to do is type in something like "change network name" into the search box, and Cortana will open up the proper window to do it or send you to a Bing search results page with a million and a half irrelevant listings. The trick is to tell Cortana to search within your computer and not do a web search. You will have that choice when you type in your keywords. It's one of the annoying things for the search to go to the web instead of sticking to the confines of my computer system as was the case in previous Windows OS's, but it works exceptionally well when you figure out the tricks of searching properly.

I'm sure the computer you got is capable of running Windows 10, but it sounds like a minimum system. I don't know if you can do all the things on that machine that can be done on a full blown laptop. However, discovering a network and connecting should be a piece of cake.

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Kellemora
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Re: Windows 10 Update

Post by Kellemora » 10 Aug 2015, 15:17

Hi Yogi
I'll start by saying it is a desktop computer, not a laptop. Acer Aspire X730 or something like that. About 1/2 the size physically of a real computer. Has no extra slots on the motherboard for anything. In other words, disposable, hi hi...

OK, I did finally change the WORKGROUP name to the name of our LAN.
Once I did that, it could see both Network printers, the Ooma telephone, the Direct TV box.
It could NOT SEE either Windows computer or the shared folders on them, nor can it see any of the Linux shared folders.
Before I upgraded this new toy computer from Windows 8.1 to Windows 10, it had no problem seeing our LAN after telling it the name of our LAN. It saw ALL of our shared folders and Network hardware.

Cortana was almost enough for me to return the computer. Once we opened it, the only way we found to close it was to reboot the computer. It also uses up about 1/4th of the lower panel or systray I think they call it in Windoze.

In order for the frau to use her new computer, I had to get a bunch of data and programs off her other computer or off the file server. The only way I could do this was to use a USB Stick and copy the data to it, then load it onto the Windows10 computer.

She is using it today, it is much faster than her old computer, and should be since it is a quad core with 4 gigs of memory. She's used to a single core with 1 gig of memory, it might have 2 gigs, don't remember.

Don't laugh, but the reason I bought an off the shelf computer for her, besides it being cheap and tax free. The size was just right for it to fit where her old normal sized computer never could fit.

It irks me to no end that the specification paper for it showed PS/2 slots, but it has none, which means the KVM won't work with it without trying to find female PS/2 to male USB adapters.

Actually, for the things she uses a computer for, it is much faster and easier to use than Win 7 or 8 for someone who LOVES XP. And if the documentation I read about it is correct, she will be able to run all of her hold XP games on it, and it is supposed to have an XP compatibility mode if they cause problems.

Using the suggested video resolution causes a few problems with multilayered video such as what Farcebook uses. But changing to other resolutions does not produce any relief either. Nor does it display the proper width on the monitor if you change the resolution.
For example: And to be fair, I have this problem with Linux as well when using dual monitors.
My monitor is built into my desktop, so I look at it through a class window that forms the desktop. My desk was made before wide screen monitors. If I set my resolution to 1024x768 or any setting that is 4x3, I get the square image on the wide screen monitor, black on each side of the centered image, just as it should be.
If I'm using a second monitor, it still shows the image 1024x768 but stretched wide so a square box becomes a rectangle, and it overrides the monitor push button settings for normal instead of wide screen. In other words normal is grayed out.

I spent a good couple of hours again today, trying to figure out how to get Windows 10 to see the other computers on my LAN. So far, I've found no help in this regard. It worked fine in Windows 8.1, does not work in Windows 10.
We even tried using the folder named Public Folder or something to that affect on her old computer to transfer files from, Windows 10 could not even see that on the LAN, and it's on another Windows computer too. All the rest of the computers see it with no problem at all. So I have no idea what the problem is.

I'm laughing because it is probably something very simple I'm overlooking, but what is still eluding me.
The LAN is working on the computer itself or it could not see the printer in my office, which is set to our LAN name. Strange though, it saw it before we changed the workgroup name. Maybe it is set for both private and public?

Windows 10 has something called a Homegroup too. I messed with it a couple of times, got the password it gave us, but still no luck on seeing the LAN, so I turned off Homegroup. This had no affect on what it was seeing on the LAN. On or off, the hardware on the LAN still showed up and was accessible. Heck, it even installed the drivers for the printer in my garage office automatically. I sent a test page to the printer and it worked just fine. But where are all the shared folders or other computers? Nada...

I'll piddle with it some more tonight when I have time, I'm supposed to be at work working right now, hi hi...

Debi's already figured out how to find things without using the cell phone emulation screens, which is phunny, because she uses a Schmartz-Fone, a Kindle on-line, and is already familiar with garbaged up view screens.
I think the Windows 10 upgrade installed like 1 million 800 thousand trial programs, and automatically installed several we told it NOT to install. The install was Over 60 gigabytes HUGE! Good thing it came with a 500 gig hard drive.

TTUL
Gary

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yogi
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Re: Windows 10 Update

Post by yogi » 10 Aug 2015, 19:49

At the risk of telling you the obvious, or something you tried a half dozen times already, here is how I'd approach the network problem you see in Windows 10.

Just to show you that Cortana can be useful, and to demonstrate how this machine can be used ...
  • In the Cortana search box, type in the keyword "settings" and hit ENTER.
    This will bring you to the settings window. This will also remind you of Ubuntu's Unity desktop where you can do the same thing and come up with corresponding Linux apps. :mrgreen:
  • Click Network and Internet. On the left side you will see all the network things you can adjust. You would be interested in Wi-Fi or Ethernet, or possibly both depending on what you have going with the desktop.
  • Assuming it's Wi-Fi you are interested in, highlight that on the left side.
    The Right side will give you the option to turn the Wi-Fi on or off. You want it to be on, of course. You should see the name of your network there as well as any neighbors within range.
  • Select "Advanced options" under the list of networks. Check to be sure "Find devices and content" is switched to on. If you are metered, then you can set that on too, but it has nothing to do with visibility.
  • Also, "Connect to networks shared by my contacts." I'm not sure what this does because it's turned off on my laptop and I have no LAN visibility problems. You have more devices and might need it. The other setting for hotspots would not apply to your situation unless you leave the house with that computer. So, turn that one off for sure.
  • Back to the Network & Internet settings menu, and under "Related settings" click on "Change advanced sharing options."
  • This is just a sanity check, but could cause problems if it's not done right. Basically there are three groups of settings here that can be expanded to see the individual settings.
    • There is Private (current profile),
    • Guest or Public, and
    • All Networks.
  • Turn off sharing for the public networks and turn on sharing for private networks.
  • Then check the appropriate settings for sharing in all three sections. Your LAN should be all visible after that.
Oh, and one more demonstration of how valuable Cortana could be.
  • In the Cortana search box type in "Cortana settings" then hit ENTER.
  • The very first item is the option to turn off Cortana. :grin:
It's a learning curve, Gary. But, it's nothing new. It took me since last October to learn only 1% of what this new OS can do. As I stated before, it has all the benefits of Unity desktop PLUS all the wonderful advantages of the Facebook privacy settings. Once you get that down pat, it's gravy. :yikes:
Last edited by yogi on 11 Aug 2015, 09:04, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Windows 10 Update

Post by yogi » 10 Aug 2015, 23:41

I'm guessing you don't have Windows 10 Pro on that computer you got for your wife. The home edition is probably what you have and it's not designed to join domains. To be honest I'm not sure what that means, but it could be the reason why you are having trouble.

http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/feature/wind ... e-3618710/

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Re: Windows 10 Update

Post by Kellemora » 11 Aug 2015, 19:54

Hi Yogi
I honestly think joining a domain means something else.
My reason for saying that is simply, the same article I read about "Windows 10 Join Domain" stated neither Windows 7 or Windows 8 HOME versions could connect to a Domain.
My Windows 7 Netbook connects to our LAN just fine and sees all the computers on the Domain it is set to use.
Before upgrading the new Windows 8.1 computer (which is a desktop by the way) it connected to the LAN and to the Domain so I could download a couple of programs from our server the frau insisted on having to try it out.
It's only after I upgraded to Windows 10 that it can no longer connect to named workgroup on the LAN, but can see everything else on the LAN which uses "workgroup".

After reading something else and before responding here, I tried something just to see if it would work.

runas /netonly /user:classichaus\gary "compaqsr1907\onsitefolder\debilogo.jpg"

Using the above line brought up the image "debilogo.jpg" on the screen and I could save it to her desktop.

I decided to roll back to Windows 8.1, which is supposed to be able to do. Instead it rolled back to Windows 7 instead of 8.1... Strange, but I like Windows 7 better anyhow, and it connects to the LAN just fine.

Since I have not been able to SHARE a Folder from Windows 10, nor can it be seen on the LAN by other computers, perhaps you are right about it not working from the HOME version.
I guess they just want you to PAY for the PRO version to use your own home LAN... Nasty SOBs!

As an aside: I've been having Debi come up to my office and use one of my Linux boxes to do those things she normally did on Windows XP. The only thing she does that she cannot do on Linux is play her Big Fish games. For some reason, I could not get Big Fish to work in WINE. I'm sure it would work in Virtual Box, if I could get XP installed from another computer that was kept updated. But then comes the drivers issues. She already has some new hardware that does not have XP drivers. It works on the Win7 netbook, and worked on the new Win8 box before changing it to Win10 and everything quit working.

I will reinstall Windows 10 again and try some more things as I have time.
Thanks for the Info on Cortana!

TTUL
Gary

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Re: Windows 10 Update

Post by yogi » 12 Aug 2015, 08:15

The free upgrades for Windows 10 are what can be called "in kind." That means the upgraded version of Windows 10 is supposed to be the same level system as is the native OS that is being upgraded. I have to say that it would be very unlikely for the standard bearer OS, the Home Edition, to not be able to see it's own LAN devices nor share files/printers. The fact that you are able to do it on older systems demonstrates it's not a hardware issue, but must be something in software. I am using the Pro edition on my laptop but it is not an upgrade. There was no Windows on there when I installed the first beta version. I simply downloaded what they had at the time which evidently was the Pro tier software. I've been using that ever since and sharing files with my NAS seamlessly. I have yet to try sharing computer based files, but the NAS is a computer so that I'd not expect problems.

One of the reasons why I put Windows on it's own computer is to isolate it from everything. I like to multi-boot into other OS's and need to be able to boot from USB memory. Figuring out how to get Windows to behave in that kind of environment could only be done safely in it's own sandbox. This is the exact reasoning I used when experimenting with Linux. Everyone I've read insists that there is no problem with Windows living side by side with other OS's, plus both the Linux crowd and the Windows fans say upgrading is easy and trouble free. I'll concede that it might be easy, but I have learned from experience to never upgrade from one OS level to another. This is particularly true with Linux; I've never attempted to upgrade Windows. Doing a clean install is the only way to assure you have what was designed to be. Hybrids are not the same as virgins in spite of Microsoft's and Linux's protests to the contrary. You see where I'm going with this? My suggestion at this point is to download the iso version of Windows 10 Home and do a clean install. You will probably run into protests about erasing recovery drives at which point you will have to decide if you ever will want to recover back to what was sold with the hardware. My personal opinion is to wipe the disk and let Windows 10 create it's own recovery partition. Be certain to copy and save the product key from your existing system BEFORE you do a clean install. You will end up paying for a new license if you don't have an old key.

One other thought crossed my mind while writing this. I detest using the homegroup option built into Windows because I've never been able to get it to work properly. I believe one reason for that is that it is designed for peer to peer sharing. In other words all the shares have to be from the same type of OS. Windows 7 cannot share with Vista nor Windows 8, for example. I can't cite a reference to that effect but that sounds like something Microsoft would do with Windows 10. They are trying, after all, to ween us off all those old systems.

I have to chuckle at your adventures with rolling back to a previous OS. I've never been able to do it successfully with Windows 10. Their built in backup and recovery has failed every time I tried to use it, and that is even after I made disk images from which to recover. In your case it is working, and probably as intended. I'm guessing what you really bought there was a Windows 7 installation that has been upgraded several times to get you to Windows 10. Microsoft's original intent was to not have Windows 10 generally available until after all or most of the upgrades from existing systems were made. They backtracked when some of the major suppliers balked at not being able to sell computers with Windows 10 pre-installed. I'm thinking your computer was sold under that agreement. You did not buy hardware with Windows 10 installed. You bought an old Windows 7 box that has been upgraded. Again, if you have the ability to use a DVD reader, do a clean install. If that doesn't do it, install Ubuntu. I'm convinced that's the model Microsoft used to develop their latest brain child.

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Re: Windows 10 Update

Post by Kellemora » 12 Aug 2015, 19:51

Hi Yogi

The computer I bought for the frau came with windows 8.1 pre-installed.
There is NO Microsoft sticker anywhere on the machine, so I wrote down the product ID number when it popped up during the first time I ran the machine.
I wanted to make an ISO of the install after it completed, but it did not give me those options. I guess I could have done so manually.

I do have a DVD of Windows 10 English X64 ISO I downloaded before I got her new computer.

Trouble is, she is now using it instead of her old computer and has got everything set up the way she wants it already.
Only a few programs she wants, but we can't download them from the file server until we get the LAN working right.

Speaking of which. I use the top of my laser printer to hold the papers and notebooks I'm working on so I can grab them quickly. Not as a place to store stuff, just a place to set things while I'm working.

The frau was working on something and went to print it out, and instead of going to HER printer, it came over the LAN up here to my office to the laser printer. The paper being fed out knocked my notebook off onto my soda can, knocking it to the floor and dumping soda everywhere.
So the LAN is working hi hi...
It just can't see anything it should be able to see. I don't know how it sees the printer, unless the printer uses both WORKGROUP and our Domain Name on the LAN. The other boxes, like our Ooma Telephone and Direct TV which are connected to the router do not have workgroups that I know of, they are visible to Windows 10 also.
None of my computers, not even the Windows XP machine, can see the new computer on the LAN.
I did SHARE TWO Folders on the new computer, one is shared however Windows 10 does it, the other is shared using our Domain Name. Neither can be seen on the LAN from any computer.
Debi put some pictures from her cell phone into the PUBLIC Pictures Folder. It can be seen only from the Windows 7 Netbook, but not by any other computer.

Now that she has it set up with her stuff, she won't let me go changing it around again, hi hi...
It is still coming up every once in awhile and says "No Connection to the Internet" which we cannot figure out why. I turned OFF hibernate mode completely, and it hasn't done it since then.

I knew I should have kept that machine in my office until I had it working right and then present it to her, but she was with me when we bought it. And you know how that goes, she wants it working now!

Have a great evening Yogi!

TTUL
Gary

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Re: Windows 10 Update

Post by yogi » 13 Aug 2015, 06:39

You might find some help here: http://www.tenforums.com/network-sharin ... share.html

Also, If you have computers with more than one group name then you have at least two domains. Only the ones in the same domain as Windows 10 would be visible, of course. I doubt the solution is that simple, but as far as Linux is concerned WORKGROUP is a domain.

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Re: Windows 10 Update

Post by Kellemora » 13 Aug 2015, 19:00

Hi Yogi

I wiped her hard drive and installed Windows 10 from the ISO disk I burned.
Good thing I wrote down the OEM ID number to get it to install, but I still had to call Mickey$oft to get them to activate it manually.

I can now see the Windows 10 computer on all machines on the LAN, but cannot access the folders. Keeps asking for the password, and will not accept the password assigned to those file folders. But at least I'm making some headway.

Still cannot see any other computer from the Windows 10 computer yet, other than the hardware devices previously mentioned.

I'm also stuck now not being able to mess with it, as Debi's main computer gave up the ghost today after a power outage. The video is out on it now too. That makes three computers I have sitting here with no graphics now. Plus one with no Ethernet. I used a plug-in Ethernet card for a while, then it stopped working. Tried a second I know works, because I took it from a working machine, it worked when I put it back in the machine I took it out of, so I guess the mobo is going on that one, even though I didn't see any swollen capacitors.

I would try your GTX580 card in her computer, but she doesn't have the white plug on her monitor, VGA or HDMI only.

I think what I need is a barrel of 50s and an IT guru to rebuild everything I have here with new, hi hi...

I have the strangest things happen. Plugged in an external hard drive, said it didn't work, unrecognized device. I left it plugged in anyhow. It appears on the LAN, but won't accept the password.
Hmm, I just thought of something. External hard drives won't work if plugged into a hub will they? Her new computer only has four USB ports, and two of those are used by the mouse and keyboard, since it has no PS2 slots.
When I get down to the house I'll try changing some things.
I probably need to add myself as a USER on the Windows 10 machine so it will recognize my password.

Oh, Windows 10 runs MUCH FASTER after installing from the ISO on the DVD, but now I only have 100Mb Ethernet, instead of 1 gig Ethernet off that new machine for some reason. Maybe the ISO install used a different Ethernet driver than the upgrade from the OEM 8.1 install used?

Getting there slowly, between all my other work.

TTUL
Gary

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Re: Windows 10 Update

Post by yogi » 14 Aug 2015, 10:28

It should be simple, but peer to peer sharing folders via Windows is complicated on it's best days. I'm sure they do it on purpose because all Windows OS's are favorite targets for hackers. Windows 10 has made some great improvements along the security lines but they did nothing to simplify an already large can of worms.

I've given up sharing on my network with everything but the NAS, which is a Linux server as you know. However, in the past I have been able to share folders between computers. A password problem similar to yours arose and it took a long time to figure it out. They are looking for an existing user account on the remote computer and want the login name and password for that account. If your account name on your current computer doesn't match an account name on the remote computer, you will get the password error, or sometimes a "no such user" message. In my case I had accounts set up without a password so that when I shared folders nobody could get in - not even myself.

Password protection on the shared folder is something else. That is not what they are looking for. It seems like it's necessary to log into the remote computer first, then go to the shared folder and transfer files. If that shared folder is also password protected, you need to sign in with those credentials too. This must be Microsoft's idea for two factor authentication. It's not a bad idea, but it's not well explained either. And, I'm not sure I'm explaining it well here. :lol:

The network sharing issue is also affected by the type of networks involved. Local group policies prevent sharing on both public and private networks. Thus it is necessary to assure that all the computers sharing folders are of the same network type, i.e., private. My earlier explanation of where to find those settings in Windows 10 should work the same in Windows 7. I don't know about WinXP computers, and Linux doesn't seem to be a problem. I have a feeling that all this network connectivity is not available in the Home edition of Windows 10. But, if you get it all working, let me know.

If the type of connector on your wife's video port is the only thing preventing use of that nVidia card, then this is the solution: https://www.cdw.com/shop/products/C2G-D ... 96436.aspx I am no IT guru, but if you can give me the specs, I can build it for you.

I don't see a USB hub as being a problem for external hard drives. I have one I use for images configured exactly that way. The hub is part of my monitor and the external drive is plugged into that port. Also, my router and my NAS have ports for external drives. I am certain that I can connect that way as well. I'm not sure if this will help, but it will give you one more USB port on that netbook. http://www.amazon.com/QVS-USB-PS2Y-USB- ... B00007E87Y

I don't think you can tell the difference between 100MB and 1GB data transfers unless you are downloading something like ... Windows 10 with 4GB of data. Unless you have a gigabyte Internet connection, it's not going to make a difference. In any case, you can go to the manufacturer's web site and get the latest drivers for your Ethernet device. Only use what Windows provides (the bare minimum) if you absolutely can't find anything better.

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Re: Windows 10 Update

Post by Kellemora » 14 Aug 2015, 17:39

Hi Yogi

I'm learning slowly! Still have issues, such as the password problem you mentioned above.
However. I made a public shared folder on her new computer, on the desktop, and was able to write to it from one of my Linux boxes, meaning I placed a folder filled with documents on her Win10 from Debian7, could not do it from Debian8.
I unmounted the folder then went back in to see if I could read from it. I could not open the folder I placed inside of the shared folder on her desktop, password not recognized. Hmm...

On the external drive I use for offsite backup, it did not read from the hub, but reads OK from the USB on the front of the computer, so I just moved a few USB plugs around, hi hi... It's an older external hard drive. The newer drives do read and write from the hub OK.

I now have a new issue affecting ALL of my computers, and I think it has something to do with adding the Win10 machine to the LAN. Let me clarify because this is weird. Shared folders are now unreadable between any computer, even Linux to Linux. All are now asking for my password, but not recognizing it. Which is something to work on to find out why.

Separate issue with mounted drives. Whether sharing via Samba works or doesn't work has no bearing on mounting remote drives, that is handled in a different way.
Every time I finish working on a project, I use RSYNC to copy my Daily Data Folder to an on-site backup in a different computer, and to the offsite external hard drive, which is now connected to the Win10 computer.

Going from Debian8 SilverBullet Daily Data Folder, to Debian8 Optiplex Copy of Daily Data Folder has NEVER been a problem. The Copy of Daily Data Folder is shared on the Optiplex machine. It has to be to work. On the SilverBullet I make a Mount Point, and in the Mount Point folder, place the Copy of Daily Data Folder folder, linked to the Optioplex machine. I've never ever ever had a problem (after I learned how to get remote backups working that is) running RSYNC and copying my files over.
Ever since connected the Win10 machine to the LAN, the files copied from SilverBullet to Optiplex never appear on the Optiplex. They ARE in my Mounted Folder on my machines. RSYNC shows SUCCESSFUL Exit Code 0 wish is perfect. But the files are NOT on the Optiplex machine.

Each time we have a power outage, I have to change my Mount commands to reflect the new IP addresses.
On some machines, I have to go back in and reshare the folder I want mounted, and often move it to the desktop.
This alone can be confusing, because you have one folder appearing on the desktop for the Mount, and if you use the Network to open the folder as a shared folder, you have two with the same name on the desktop, hi hi...
I don't normally keep a Shared folder on the desktop, so only the mounted one is placed on the desktop. Normally this is the entire Partition, not just a folder in it though. I don't remember now WHY I had to mount the drive on my desktop before I could get Mount to work on the sending computer. Exactly how and what I need to do each time I have a power outage is on a checklist I wrote eons ago after getting everything working.

On Debi's old XP machine. I've not had time to open it up to see if it has swollen capacitors or if the GTX card slot size matches one she has. However, since it is XP, I doubt I can get an XP driver anymore, at least not automatically plug n pray, hi hi...

FWIW: I've been using the Win10 machine several times, only to see if it is even possible to do the things I do on my Linux boxes on Windows as simply. Never could before, and it looks like Win10 makes it even harder.
Since you are familiar with Linux, at least the old Gnome2 type of desktop, you know about Panels and Workspaces.
Now just like on Windows, you can Minimize a program into the Systray and open another program and maximize and minimize the programs as you need them. When I was using XP I learned a way to do this using the tab key, but then you had to tab through the programs to get to the one you wanted.
On Linux, I used to keep six Workspaces available. Now I keep eight available because I have so much going on.
I can bounce around between Workspaces much faster than maximizing and minimizing windows. Even if you keep the Systray open so you can just click on each one, they still minimize and maximize which causes settings to change.

After you get each program open and set right, then you can bounce between them using the systray in Windows.
But you cannot have programs running and doing something in each, when you move to a different program they stop until you open them again. I don't have that problem using Workspaces in Linux.

There are some things I do which cannot be done on a single computer, not even on Linux, which is why I have more than one computer in use. I can set an automated program running on one computer, and KVM over to another computer and it keeps doing it's thing. I can also plug in a second monitor on some of the machines not through the KVM so that monitor keeps alive when I switch away, so I know when it has finished the program it is running.

One of the things I do each month is judge book covers for a book cover contest. There are usually around 50 new ones each month to download. I can tell the difference when Comcast has me running at 15Mbps vs 30Mbps on how long it takes for the batch to load. Since I display them on a different computers monitor, while filling out the spreadsheet where the grades are maintained, and often have to switch back and forth between the images. Yes, I can tell when my LAN is running on 100 instead of 1000. Especially when I go to placing copies in each folder they belong in.
New covers go in two new cover folders for the two different types of submitters until they are entered on the spreadsheet. This makes it easier to find and access them while I'm grading the new batch. Then they get moved to the two master folders for each type which holds all the book covers ever entered. These two folders are quite huge in size. So, when I finish working on them and copy them over to another local computer over the LAN, how long it takes to do so is considerably different if I'm down to 100Mbps.
When I run the backup using RSync, then it doesn't matter too much, because only those new ones are what are copied to the onsite and offsite backups. So for that purpose, no I don't notice any difference in how long it takes RSync to run.
I've also learned to use different mounted folders for different purposes, because RSync will READ every single file to see if a file changed before starting, hi hi...

OK, I has other work to get done tonight.
Have a great evening Yogi!

TTUL
Gary

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