I know I've mentioned this before. But in msWORD if you want to Format a Page, you have to go File Systems, which has absolutely nothing to do with document Formatting Operations.
You can't claim that was a Logical Place to put a document formatting operation.
It belonged under the Formatting Tab.
The ONLY Formatting Operation that belongs under File Systems is to Format a Hard Drive.
See how confusing msWORD is compared to Open Office Writer or LibreOffice Writer!
Just because you can get a Rolls Royce Grill or a Lincoln Trunk for a Volkswagon Beetle doesn't mean you should.
The same applies to Linux. Just because you can mix and match different Distro's desktops and options, don't mean you should. You should stick with the ones that are available in the package manager for the Distro you chose to use.
Way To Go - Finally
Re: Way To Go - Finally
Yes, I've read your criticisms about MS Word in the past and still think it's personal preference you are talking about and nothing to do with logic. Be that as it may, a word processor is a different animal than is a kernel or an entire operating system. A lot of the apps are crap and not fully developed. I understand that and expect it. But the fundamental structure should be stable and consistent. Linux is not, and they use that dissimilarity as a selling point. LOL
Most of my criticism of Linux is based on my personal experiences. I've been using Windows ever since it was invented and only been using Linux for a dozen years or less. I can honestly say that I've encountered more problems with Linux and found it more difficult to seek out solutions when compared to Windows. The average computer user doesn't see these things because they are using some very limited features of the OS be it Windows or Linux. Those of us who are more technically inclined will note the problems to which I refer. The dedicated Linux hacker will accept them as normal much the same as Windows users bite the bullet with their choices. I doubt that you will find any credible statistics, but in my experience Linux in prone to breaking more often than is Windows. When you think about all the resources behind the two products, that phenomena is easy to understand. I just find it hard to embrace "better" devices that have more maintenance issues.
Most of my criticism of Linux is based on my personal experiences. I've been using Windows ever since it was invented and only been using Linux for a dozen years or less. I can honestly say that I've encountered more problems with Linux and found it more difficult to seek out solutions when compared to Windows. The average computer user doesn't see these things because they are using some very limited features of the OS be it Windows or Linux. Those of us who are more technically inclined will note the problems to which I refer. The dedicated Linux hacker will accept them as normal much the same as Windows users bite the bullet with their choices. I doubt that you will find any credible statistics, but in my experience Linux in prone to breaking more often than is Windows. When you think about all the resources behind the two products, that phenomena is easy to understand. I just find it hard to embrace "better" devices that have more maintenance issues.
Re: Way To Go - Finally
Although this was a lot of years ago now.
When I opened Wonder Plant Systems downtown, I went with MAC and the Tops Networking System.
So had about four years of designing our building layout, skate-wheel bench system, potting areas, etc. Then all the paperwork, advertising brochures, signs, and naturally all of our book keeping, accounting, and basically everything was done on the MAC's.
Now although I did get started with DOS, and then Windows 3.0, 3.11, 95, 98, XP, etc.
Virtually none of the things we could do on the MAC could be done on the PC's, even using the same programs by the same software company. What was designed for the MAC had more features and just flat out worked better. There were some thing we could not do at all on a PC that the MAC handled perfectly.
For me, having to move over to PC's was like a nightmare at first.
Especially after going through the Lisa System, and then our Wang VS Mainframe where anything we wanted the programmers would do for us, for a price of course, hi hi.
Wang even built me a little PC to use at home that ran both Wang and Windows 98 I believe it was.
Even so, I normally did everything on the Wang part of the computer.
One thing that irks me that I don't remember at all about that little PC is whether or not it was a dual-boot set-up.
I don't think it was, because I could be doing something on the Wang programs, then jump over to the Windows program.
Looking back, what I'm thinking was going on was that it was a normal PC running a special Wang program for PCs inside of Windows. Maybe like some Linux programs are ported over to use on Windows computers, they may have ported over the programs I used on Wang so they ran on Windows. I could take work home with me from the Wang VS and load it to work on at home, then save the data to take back with me to work the next day.
I do remember when it booted up, it showed the WANG splash screen, the same as at work, but heck you could show that on a Windows computer with ease back then too.
Although I toyed with Linux many years ago, it was way to complicated and hard to use.
But when I came back to Linux around 2006, I found it easier to use than any system I ever used before, and I was quite adept with XP at that time too.
Let me digress several years back to the Apple II+ machine and Basic.
I was able to write a Basic program that made use of the serial ports on that computer, both for input and output.
I made little devices from things I learned using a 3 wire Integral Data Systems dot-matrix printer, and later my Swintec Electronic daisy wheel typewriter which came with a simple driver program.
I could use little home-brew solenoids to drive relay circuits to turn lights on and off. Also bought a temperature module that sent data over a serial port using the three wire set-up.
So many years ago, I don't remember how I addressed the serial port to do so many functions. I do remember everything I wrote was done in Basic. Computers back then were not multi-tasking either. So, if I wanted to check the temperature, I had to load the program I wrote for that. Actually I had one program with selectable features. I just loaded my basic program then checked the box to check temperature, or turn on or off a light, etc. It used different pins in the serial port to do this so I could do like three different things from a single serial port.
But once Windows XP came out, it basically ended a lot of the things I could do on Win 95 or 98.
But by that time I was too busy with work, raising a family, and starting other businesses to play around with computers other than using them to get my work done. Normally with store-bought programs.
When I opened Wonder Plant Systems downtown, I went with MAC and the Tops Networking System.
So had about four years of designing our building layout, skate-wheel bench system, potting areas, etc. Then all the paperwork, advertising brochures, signs, and naturally all of our book keeping, accounting, and basically everything was done on the MAC's.
Now although I did get started with DOS, and then Windows 3.0, 3.11, 95, 98, XP, etc.
Virtually none of the things we could do on the MAC could be done on the PC's, even using the same programs by the same software company. What was designed for the MAC had more features and just flat out worked better. There were some thing we could not do at all on a PC that the MAC handled perfectly.
For me, having to move over to PC's was like a nightmare at first.
Especially after going through the Lisa System, and then our Wang VS Mainframe where anything we wanted the programmers would do for us, for a price of course, hi hi.
Wang even built me a little PC to use at home that ran both Wang and Windows 98 I believe it was.
Even so, I normally did everything on the Wang part of the computer.
One thing that irks me that I don't remember at all about that little PC is whether or not it was a dual-boot set-up.
I don't think it was, because I could be doing something on the Wang programs, then jump over to the Windows program.
Looking back, what I'm thinking was going on was that it was a normal PC running a special Wang program for PCs inside of Windows. Maybe like some Linux programs are ported over to use on Windows computers, they may have ported over the programs I used on Wang so they ran on Windows. I could take work home with me from the Wang VS and load it to work on at home, then save the data to take back with me to work the next day.
I do remember when it booted up, it showed the WANG splash screen, the same as at work, but heck you could show that on a Windows computer with ease back then too.
Although I toyed with Linux many years ago, it was way to complicated and hard to use.
But when I came back to Linux around 2006, I found it easier to use than any system I ever used before, and I was quite adept with XP at that time too.
Let me digress several years back to the Apple II+ machine and Basic.
I was able to write a Basic program that made use of the serial ports on that computer, both for input and output.
I made little devices from things I learned using a 3 wire Integral Data Systems dot-matrix printer, and later my Swintec Electronic daisy wheel typewriter which came with a simple driver program.
I could use little home-brew solenoids to drive relay circuits to turn lights on and off. Also bought a temperature module that sent data over a serial port using the three wire set-up.
So many years ago, I don't remember how I addressed the serial port to do so many functions. I do remember everything I wrote was done in Basic. Computers back then were not multi-tasking either. So, if I wanted to check the temperature, I had to load the program I wrote for that. Actually I had one program with selectable features. I just loaded my basic program then checked the box to check temperature, or turn on or off a light, etc. It used different pins in the serial port to do this so I could do like three different things from a single serial port.
But once Windows XP came out, it basically ended a lot of the things I could do on Win 95 or 98.
But by that time I was too busy with work, raising a family, and starting other businesses to play around with computers other than using them to get my work done. Normally with store-bought programs.
Re: Way To Go - Finally
The early Apple Computer's claim to fame was in it's ability to outperform anybody with it's graphics handling capability. It was kind of a specialty application, but it was something Apple owners could brag about being able to do and Windows could not. The price you paid for that, as you said, is that you were locked into Apple software and hardware. Microsoft would counter the Apple graphics argument with the claim they have so many more programs available from third party vendors. I guess all of that was true so many years ago. But, then, Apple switch processors to using Intel. At that time the playing field became level. Both MS and Apple could do the same high quality graphics, thanks to Intel. In the year 2019, it truly doesn't matter. Processors are so powerful that even a smartphone can keep up with a high end desktop and possibly do some things better.
Linux never had the advantage of all the visibility garnered by Apple and Microsoft. They didn't make hardware so you couldn't go buy a Linux anything off the shelf. However, the very nature of Linux made it competitive with both Apple and Microsoft; it's all about operating systems. Popularity is hard to define in today's world when it comes to operating systems because they are all so specialized. The OS in your tablet isn't a server, for example. Your friendly IT professional would puke if you told him to use Windows on his servers, and the office full of secretaries would give you a blank stare when you told them there was such a thing as Linux. The interesting thing is that like microprocessors, operating systems are trying to blend together. Once that happens it won't matter what you prefer today. They will all do the same things.
Me? Well I'm an old fart with nothing to do until I depart from this earthly plane. The decision was made many years ago to keep my brain as fresh and active as possible. I may regret that for some subtle reasons as I get older, but for now I need some mental challenges. Linux is very challenging in my opinion. Maybe it won't be if I learn enough about it, but I don't think I have THAT many years left.
Linux never had the advantage of all the visibility garnered by Apple and Microsoft. They didn't make hardware so you couldn't go buy a Linux anything off the shelf. However, the very nature of Linux made it competitive with both Apple and Microsoft; it's all about operating systems. Popularity is hard to define in today's world when it comes to operating systems because they are all so specialized. The OS in your tablet isn't a server, for example. Your friendly IT professional would puke if you told him to use Windows on his servers, and the office full of secretaries would give you a blank stare when you told them there was such a thing as Linux. The interesting thing is that like microprocessors, operating systems are trying to blend together. Once that happens it won't matter what you prefer today. They will all do the same things.
Me? Well I'm an old fart with nothing to do until I depart from this earthly plane. The decision was made many years ago to keep my brain as fresh and active as possible. I may regret that for some subtle reasons as I get older, but for now I need some mental challenges. Linux is very challenging in my opinion. Maybe it won't be if I learn enough about it, but I don't think I have THAT many years left.
Re: Way To Go - Finally
I had an old memory recall while reading your comments above.
When I had my second Apple it came in a case and was called Apple II.
I remembered buying a card for it that ran CP/M.
If you recall, the Apple's used the 6502 microprocessor.
I was doing Basic Games and some of them would not run on a 6502, so I bought the CP/M card which had it's own 8080a microprocessor on it. This opened up a whole other neat thing. One could now have 80 columns on the computer screen in stead of only 62 or whatever it was.
The word processor called Word Star I think it was, worked a whole lot better with that CP/M card.
I stuck with Word Star, but a new version for Apple, after I moved up to the Apple II+ computer, and it worked just fine without the CP/M card.
I wonder what the world would be like if CP/M caught on instead of DOS?
When I had my second Apple it came in a case and was called Apple II.
I remembered buying a card for it that ran CP/M.
If you recall, the Apple's used the 6502 microprocessor.
I was doing Basic Games and some of them would not run on a 6502, so I bought the CP/M card which had it's own 8080a microprocessor on it. This opened up a whole other neat thing. One could now have 80 columns on the computer screen in stead of only 62 or whatever it was.
The word processor called Word Star I think it was, worked a whole lot better with that CP/M card.
I stuck with Word Star, but a new version for Apple, after I moved up to the Apple II+ computer, and it worked just fine without the CP/M card.
I wonder what the world would be like if CP/M caught on instead of DOS?
Re: Way To Go - Finally
CP/M didn't take over DOS because, well, DOS was better. If it wasn't better, it certainly had a highly motivated dude pushing it for his software factory.
Speaking of old memories, My first PC was an HP85 that was octal based instead of the hex based ones I was using at work. There was no Windows nor DOS but I was able to buy 5.25" floppies with CP/M. The only program it ran was Word Star. That's the era in my life when I bought my first Epsom printer that could print a full 132 columns. Back then I was terribly impressed with Word Star but I recall having to insert control characters into the text to do formatting. The print out looked great, but the monitor showed all those control characters and made life a real challenge.
I learned assembly language on the 6502 processor. It was just an exercise in learning because my job didn't require writing code in assembly. I did a little at home and compiled some "hello world" kind of things, but nothing really serious. Apple and Motorola made a great team. I believe it was Apple's IIe that dominated our PC collection, but that all changed when they decided to buy Intel chips instead of ours. We switched from Jobs to Gates and never looked back.
Speaking of old memories, My first PC was an HP85 that was octal based instead of the hex based ones I was using at work. There was no Windows nor DOS but I was able to buy 5.25" floppies with CP/M. The only program it ran was Word Star. That's the era in my life when I bought my first Epsom printer that could print a full 132 columns. Back then I was terribly impressed with Word Star but I recall having to insert control characters into the text to do formatting. The print out looked great, but the monitor showed all those control characters and made life a real challenge.
I learned assembly language on the 6502 processor. It was just an exercise in learning because my job didn't require writing code in assembly. I did a little at home and compiled some "hello world" kind of things, but nothing really serious. Apple and Motorola made a great team. I believe it was Apple's IIe that dominated our PC collection, but that all changed when they decided to buy Intel chips instead of ours. We switched from Jobs to Gates and never looked back.
Re: Way To Go - Finally
Unfortunately, I shredded all of my ancient computer books. But not before I offered them to McKay's first, and then on eBay second. Never had a taker on a single one, so off to the shredder they went.
I rarely if ever throw anything paper away, it all gets shredded and used as mulch around the house here.
My first computer was a Heath/Zenith Octal Entry, and I bought a paper tape reader/punch for it.
I did have some learning phun with that thing. It is basically what got me hooked and made me fork over the money to buy the Apple I motherboard and build my first computer.
I never got anything serious done with it, but went whole hog with the Apple II, and Apple II+ which I set-up at work to use there. Now that computer was used to tons of beneficial stuff on. Can't say I was as pleased with the Lisa system, in comparison to the Apple II+ though.
Then after we got the Wang VS, anything to do with programming was done for us by Wang.
I rarely if ever throw anything paper away, it all gets shredded and used as mulch around the house here.
My first computer was a Heath/Zenith Octal Entry, and I bought a paper tape reader/punch for it.
I did have some learning phun with that thing. It is basically what got me hooked and made me fork over the money to buy the Apple I motherboard and build my first computer.
I never got anything serious done with it, but went whole hog with the Apple II, and Apple II+ which I set-up at work to use there. Now that computer was used to tons of beneficial stuff on. Can't say I was as pleased with the Lisa system, in comparison to the Apple II+ though.
Then after we got the Wang VS, anything to do with programming was done for us by Wang.
Re: Way To Go - Finally
I've heard of people using printed paper for mulch but never did it myself. I also learned that a lot of the inks, especially the colored ones, have some toxic chemicals in them. If you mulch your tomatoes with that stuff, you are taking a big risk. Mulching your barberry bush with it is ok but probably doesn't add to the aesthetics. LOL
Apple's Lisa was a game changer. Unfortunately it had a micro monitor that was hard for even my young eyes to navigate. We had two in the office with signatures inside the case. Apparently the people who developed the Lisa autographed a few. They probably are worth a mint now, but back then they ended up in the dumpster when we switched. I tried to buy a few, but that was not possible. And, if I took one out of the dumpster, I'd be terminated. One of my best buds had that happen to him. Apparently stealing garbage was against the rules at Motorola.
Apple's Lisa was a game changer. Unfortunately it had a micro monitor that was hard for even my young eyes to navigate. We had two in the office with signatures inside the case. Apparently the people who developed the Lisa autographed a few. They probably are worth a mint now, but back then they ended up in the dumpster when we switched. I tried to buy a few, but that was not possible. And, if I took one out of the dumpster, I'd be terminated. One of my best buds had that happen to him. Apparently stealing garbage was against the rules at Motorola.
Last edited by yogi on 12 Oct 2019, 19:00, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Way To Go - Finally
Wang took our Lisa system when they installed their mainframe. They converted our stored data to their format, then updated the Wang so everything was available in it. If I recall, they even found some unpaid invoices that we entered after they took copies of our disks. So were not in the new system at first.
We must have had the first Lisa system with two 8-1/2" drives and an internal hard drive.
I say that because pictures I've seen of the Lisa System right before they came out with the Macintosh only had one or two 5-1/4" drives, usually two. And if I recall, the Macintosh made using Lisa guts only had a 3-1/2" drive in it.
Things I remember for sure is that the monitor and drives housing sat on a stand just high enough for the keyboard to slide under the unit, and the actual computer itself sat on top of the monitor. The hard drive was only like 5 megs, hi hi.
Hey, remember the Portable Trash-80's with the keyboard that locked to the front?
A life insurance company bought these for their salesmen, and when they moved on to something else, they sold all of these machines for like 10 or 20 bucks each. I bought two of them. They left all of their programs in them, well on the disks that were in them, but they contained no customer data. This at least made them usable for a short time. So long ago I have no idea what I ever used them for since I had my own computers. They had tiny little screens also!
After we switched to Wang, there were no workstations inside the computer room itself. And a single Wang workstation was much larger than the entire Lisa system stacked up. We had four workstations on day one, then added two more a few months later, and one had a cash drawer under it, hi hi.
Wish we still had all the money we had to burn back then!
We must have had the first Lisa system with two 8-1/2" drives and an internal hard drive.
I say that because pictures I've seen of the Lisa System right before they came out with the Macintosh only had one or two 5-1/4" drives, usually two. And if I recall, the Macintosh made using Lisa guts only had a 3-1/2" drive in it.
Things I remember for sure is that the monitor and drives housing sat on a stand just high enough for the keyboard to slide under the unit, and the actual computer itself sat on top of the monitor. The hard drive was only like 5 megs, hi hi.
Hey, remember the Portable Trash-80's with the keyboard that locked to the front?
A life insurance company bought these for their salesmen, and when they moved on to something else, they sold all of these machines for like 10 or 20 bucks each. I bought two of them. They left all of their programs in them, well on the disks that were in them, but they contained no customer data. This at least made them usable for a short time. So long ago I have no idea what I ever used them for since I had my own computers. They had tiny little screens also!
After we switched to Wang, there were no workstations inside the computer room itself. And a single Wang workstation was much larger than the entire Lisa system stacked up. We had four workstations on day one, then added two more a few months later, and one had a cash drawer under it, hi hi.
Wish we still had all the money we had to burn back then!
Re: Way To Go - Finally
I'm stretching my imagination here to try and recall what those Lisa boxes had in them. I don't recall them having any external driver and I'm pretty sure it was all 3 1/4" floppies. I was far from the first one to use a Lisa so that things might have been upgraded by the time they got around to me. I just remember writing code in "hypertext" (I think it was called) and squinting a lot to see what was on the screen. We had special tools to get inside them too. There was a "Mac-cracker" to pry the housing apart and an extremely long hex wrench that reached from the back of the housing all the way to the front so that some screws could be undone. Apple sure didn't want any unauthorized hands inside their boxes. Not sure what I was digging for in there, but that's how I discovered signatures etched into the housing.
Wang did business the way it should be done. No doubt that is why they didn't make it in a competitive market.
Wang did business the way it should be done. No doubt that is why they didn't make it in a competitive market.
Re: Way To Go - Finally
You are right, Lisa 1 had 5-1/4 drives, two of them on the front right of the computer.
It was the primary Wang workstation that had a box that held two 8-1/2 inch drives which sat on a shelf above the office workstation. None of the other workstations had drives at all if I recall. I do think they had ROM boot also.
That one workstation was the only one that could get into administration areas of the Wang VS mainframe.
The only time we went into the room with the computer was at night to run backup and swap out the huge open platters.
I should have remembered that since my Apple II+ I bought TWO Apple II drives for, and I used the disks from it in the Lisa system.
As an aside, I just downloaded Linux Mint 19.2 and burned it to a DVD, to big for a CD.
I had talked to a computer guy who said the problem I'm having with Windows 10 on the new computer I bought for the frau was it was designed for Windows 8, and does not have enough ooomph to run Windows 10 properly, especially in graphics mode trying to run Farm Town. It works OK for other things, like word processing and surfing the web if they are not so graphics heavy it slows down the system.
He said they are installing Linux Mint on that particular brand of computer and it is running like a top, even going to Farm Town. However, he's only installed Linux Mint Cinnamon 18, so wasn't sure about Maya 19.2 which is what I like.
We'll see how it does with that once I get it installed.
I did have to turn off secure boot in order to run GParted to shrink the Win10 partition.
And the Live Linux Mint Maya 19.2 disk booted right up OK.
Working from the Live DVD, I opened Firefox, the second time it opens almost instantly. Did a couple of web searches and they came up fairly fast.
So I think I will go ahead and hit the INSTALL button and see what happens, hi hi.
It was the primary Wang workstation that had a box that held two 8-1/2 inch drives which sat on a shelf above the office workstation. None of the other workstations had drives at all if I recall. I do think they had ROM boot also.
That one workstation was the only one that could get into administration areas of the Wang VS mainframe.
The only time we went into the room with the computer was at night to run backup and swap out the huge open platters.
I should have remembered that since my Apple II+ I bought TWO Apple II drives for, and I used the disks from it in the Lisa system.
As an aside, I just downloaded Linux Mint 19.2 and burned it to a DVD, to big for a CD.
I had talked to a computer guy who said the problem I'm having with Windows 10 on the new computer I bought for the frau was it was designed for Windows 8, and does not have enough ooomph to run Windows 10 properly, especially in graphics mode trying to run Farm Town. It works OK for other things, like word processing and surfing the web if they are not so graphics heavy it slows down the system.
He said they are installing Linux Mint on that particular brand of computer and it is running like a top, even going to Farm Town. However, he's only installed Linux Mint Cinnamon 18, so wasn't sure about Maya 19.2 which is what I like.
We'll see how it does with that once I get it installed.
I did have to turn off secure boot in order to run GParted to shrink the Win10 partition.
And the Live Linux Mint Maya 19.2 disk booted right up OK.
Working from the Live DVD, I opened Firefox, the second time it opens almost instantly. Did a couple of web searches and they came up fairly fast.
So I think I will go ahead and hit the INSTALL button and see what happens, hi hi.
Re: Way To Go - Finally
My recent experiences with Linux Mint have been confined to the 19.2 Tara and Tina versions. Apparently the only difference between the two gals is the desktop environment. I know nothing about Maya. Because of my special circumstance with the nVidia drivers, I chose Tina, which is the Xfce desktop, as the Mint of choice. It's not the worst desktop I've ever worked with, but it's not Cinnamon. Cinnamon uses a lot of resources compared to other desktops. If your basic hardware can't run Windows 10 because it's underpowered, you might want to consider a desktop other than Cinnamon.
If you are installing Linux Mint alongside of Windows 10, you will very likely run into the same situation I ran into but with fewer problems. Mint uses the Ubuntu installer, and that is the installer that is flawed in some ways. It will always put the bootloader (which is GRUB) in the Windows EFI partition. You can tell it to put it somewhere else, but it won't. The end result is that you will likely need to go through the Windows 10 bootmanager in order to boot into Linux Mint. That is a nuisance, but you will get used to it after a while. I had a problem because I also had Linux Ubuntu installed alongside of Windows 10. Linux Mint registers itself as ... UBUNTU ... so that it screwed up my Linux booting. Since you don't have Ubuntu alongside of Windows (or, I don't think you do), you will not have this particular problem. Should you be totally turned off by needing to go through Windows in order to get to Linux, there are ways to replace the Windows bootmanager with GRUB. I ran across articles to that effect but never pursued it. I just banned Linux Mint from my Windows 10 laptop to solve my problem. LOL
If you are installing Linux Mint alongside of Windows 10, you will very likely run into the same situation I ran into but with fewer problems. Mint uses the Ubuntu installer, and that is the installer that is flawed in some ways. It will always put the bootloader (which is GRUB) in the Windows EFI partition. You can tell it to put it somewhere else, but it won't. The end result is that you will likely need to go through the Windows 10 bootmanager in order to boot into Linux Mint. That is a nuisance, but you will get used to it after a while. I had a problem because I also had Linux Ubuntu installed alongside of Windows 10. Linux Mint registers itself as ... UBUNTU ... so that it screwed up my Linux booting. Since you don't have Ubuntu alongside of Windows (or, I don't think you do), you will not have this particular problem. Should you be totally turned off by needing to go through Windows in order to get to Linux, there are ways to replace the Windows bootmanager with GRUB. I ran across articles to that effect but never pursued it. I just banned Linux Mint from my Windows 10 laptop to solve my problem. LOL
Re: Way To Go - Finally
My LInux Mint Maya 19.2 booted up just fine, tested it several times in a row.
Then I booted up Windows 10 to make sure it was OK. It was, however, being GOD it overwrote Grub.
I had to use Boot Repair to get back into Linux again. Tried a few things but Windows, being GOD, overwrote Grub no matter where I put it.
Also installed Debian and Ubuntu, and as long as I don't boot into Windows, they all work perfectly.
So the Problem Child is not GNU/Linux at all, 100% of the problem is Windows 10!
I even tried making the EFI partitions Read Only, and God Windows still overwrote them.
DEFINE MALWARE:
mal·ware /ˈmalwer/ noun
software that is specifically designed to disrupt, damage, or gain unauthorized access to a computer system.
Ergo Windows 10 is MALWARE!
Solution: PURGE the Windows 10 Malware program from your computer.
Problem Solved!
This is probably the same problem you are having trying to make a USB Stick with Windows 10 and LInux on it.
I will never use Windows 10 for anything anyhow, so no reason to put up with Mickey$oft playing GOD.
As an aside: After I had Linux Mint up and running well. I jumped over to my Farm Town game using this computer, and it ran almost as fast as it does on my other older computers, the speed I was used to before getting the Silver Yogi.
Compared to Windows 10 though, the difference was like night and day! Linux is far superior to Windows!
Then I booted up Windows 10 to make sure it was OK. It was, however, being GOD it overwrote Grub.
I had to use Boot Repair to get back into Linux again. Tried a few things but Windows, being GOD, overwrote Grub no matter where I put it.
Also installed Debian and Ubuntu, and as long as I don't boot into Windows, they all work perfectly.
So the Problem Child is not GNU/Linux at all, 100% of the problem is Windows 10!
I even tried making the EFI partitions Read Only, and God Windows still overwrote them.
DEFINE MALWARE:
mal·ware /ˈmalwer/ noun
software that is specifically designed to disrupt, damage, or gain unauthorized access to a computer system.
Ergo Windows 10 is MALWARE!
Solution: PURGE the Windows 10 Malware program from your computer.
Problem Solved!
This is probably the same problem you are having trying to make a USB Stick with Windows 10 and LInux on it.
I will never use Windows 10 for anything anyhow, so no reason to put up with Mickey$oft playing GOD.
As an aside: After I had Linux Mint up and running well. I jumped over to my Farm Town game using this computer, and it ran almost as fast as it does on my other older computers, the speed I was used to before getting the Silver Yogi.
Compared to Windows 10 though, the difference was like night and day! Linux is far superior to Windows!
Re: Way To Go - Finally
My empathy and sympathy for you is only exceeded by my delight to know I am not the only one experiencing said problems.
The truth in the matter is that it took me six weeks to come to an understanding of why I was having problems. (I was educated by two decent folks in a Linux Mint forum, by the way.) You are experiencing the same fate I was but came to a different conclusion. I am thoroughly convinced Linux is the evildoer and not Windows. LOL My reasoning is simple. Windows has the UEFI process down pat. It works as it is intended to work. Linux is still trying. Your "malware" falls into the profile of what is supposed to happen. The management of the boot process must be via one, and only one, trusted boot manager. Windows assumes that role which is why it disrupts GRUB. UEFI demands it. It is possible to switch the master control to GRUB. I've not done it yet so that I can't tell you how.
I'm not going to explain any more than I have in the entirety of the current thread. I will say you are making the right decision by abandoning Windows and converting the computer to all Linux. It doesn't have to be that way. I have a computer that can do both, plus it will boot from any properly prepared USB memory device as well. I'd strongly encourage you not to do what I did and stick to what you know. It gets complicated quickly and any anti-Windows operator doesn't deserve to go through that learning curve. Enjoy your Linux. And, may the Force be with you.
The truth in the matter is that it took me six weeks to come to an understanding of why I was having problems. (I was educated by two decent folks in a Linux Mint forum, by the way.) You are experiencing the same fate I was but came to a different conclusion. I am thoroughly convinced Linux is the evildoer and not Windows. LOL My reasoning is simple. Windows has the UEFI process down pat. It works as it is intended to work. Linux is still trying. Your "malware" falls into the profile of what is supposed to happen. The management of the boot process must be via one, and only one, trusted boot manager. Windows assumes that role which is why it disrupts GRUB. UEFI demands it. It is possible to switch the master control to GRUB. I've not done it yet so that I can't tell you how.
I'm not going to explain any more than I have in the entirety of the current thread. I will say you are making the right decision by abandoning Windows and converting the computer to all Linux. It doesn't have to be that way. I have a computer that can do both, plus it will boot from any properly prepared USB memory device as well. I'd strongly encourage you not to do what I did and stick to what you know. It gets complicated quickly and any anti-Windows operator doesn't deserve to go through that learning curve. Enjoy your Linux. And, may the Force be with you.
Re: Way To Go - Finally
Those that have managed to get Windows 10 from overwriting Grub, actually works for a short time, but only up until Windows does an update, and then it wipes out Grub Again.
Doesn't seem to matter where you put it either, or force Bios to Boot the Grub partition, Windows will still overwrite it.
That is the definition of MALWARE! Windows is NOT AUTHORIZED to overwrite those files! Hence MALWARE!
Doesn't seem to matter where you put it either, or force Bios to Boot the Grub partition, Windows will still overwrite it.
That is the definition of MALWARE! Windows is NOT AUTHORIZED to overwrite those files! Hence MALWARE!
Re: Way To Go - Finally
My first encounters with GRUB were exactly those as you are experiencing with the Windows boot manager. GRUB would overwrite the MBR where the Windows bootloader would be eliminated. I never read any complaints from the Linux community about this aggressiveness. I've had to rebuild the MBR a few times due to the malware-like behavior of GRUB; the last time was a few weeks ago when the Ubuntu installer decided to trash the MBR on my legacy BIOS computer. It also managed to trash the Windows bootloader to the point where I had to recover from an image.
The issue has nothing to do with malware or being predatory. You have enough experience with operating systems, and Linux in general, to know how twisted that notion is. Yes, I too have damned Linux for it's misbehavior. Sometimes with good reason, and sometimes simply out of ignorance of what is supposed to be happening and why. I realize that you have better things to do than to learn about boot managers, bootloaders, BIOS, UEFI, and GPT. I sense you could use a brush up in those areas. I know all that because I was in the same position when this thread started. I am now familiar with what I recognize to be only the tip of the boot process iceberg. I don't think it should be necessary to learn what I did, and so much more, in order to get operating systems to peacefully coexist. But that's life in Linux-land, my friend.
I can only assure you that Linux and Windows are not mutually exclusive in the UEFI booting scenario. If it seems that way to you, then you have but two choices. Learn what you are dealing with, or abandon Windows altogether for something you can feel comfortable with. As you say often, Windows is not for everybody.
The issue has nothing to do with malware or being predatory. You have enough experience with operating systems, and Linux in general, to know how twisted that notion is. Yes, I too have damned Linux for it's misbehavior. Sometimes with good reason, and sometimes simply out of ignorance of what is supposed to be happening and why. I realize that you have better things to do than to learn about boot managers, bootloaders, BIOS, UEFI, and GPT. I sense you could use a brush up in those areas. I know all that because I was in the same position when this thread started. I am now familiar with what I recognize to be only the tip of the boot process iceberg. I don't think it should be necessary to learn what I did, and so much more, in order to get operating systems to peacefully coexist. But that's life in Linux-land, my friend.
I can only assure you that Linux and Windows are not mutually exclusive in the UEFI booting scenario. If it seems that way to you, then you have but two choices. Learn what you are dealing with, or abandon Windows altogether for something you can feel comfortable with. As you say often, Windows is not for everybody.
Re: Way To Go - Finally
Even Mickey$oft Windows users are calling Windows 10 MALWARE due to its unwanted behavior.
I have a version of Windows on every computer I own, and all of them are dual, triple, or quad boot.
Never had problem until Windows 8, which could be overcome, but not with Windows 10.
Talking only about PCs and Laptops
Linux users rose by 17% in 2017, and another 19% in 2018
Windows users have dropped from 91.45% all they way down to 82.56%
It wasn't Linux getting all the Windows dropouts. Part of the Windows user drop had to do with the entry of Chromebooks, and an increase in MAC OSx users.
I can't find it right now, and I looked.
There was a list of Distro's and how many personal users of each downloaded new updates.
Linux Mint topped the list with the most number of users. Followed by Ubuntu, Debian, and Suse.
There were well over twenty Distro's listed but almost all of them the count was way down below the top four.
Programs like WINE and Play on Linux have improved so much over the years, that now you can run nearly any Windows program on Linux. Including those with on-line links you could not use at all before unless you used a Virtual Machine with a Windows OS running which made them run slower.
The only thing keeping my frau from moving to Linux was her Big Fish Games, which uses an on-line controller program to keep track of them. Previously WINE could only run the ones you did a complete download of. But now WINE works with the Big Fish on-line controller to allow downloads in the controller play window.
I'm working on getting this set to try for myself before swapping out the frau's computer.
Although the specs on her newest computer I have up here are minimal. I really got took on that purchase!
I have a version of Windows on every computer I own, and all of them are dual, triple, or quad boot.
Never had problem until Windows 8, which could be overcome, but not with Windows 10.
Talking only about PCs and Laptops
Linux users rose by 17% in 2017, and another 19% in 2018
Windows users have dropped from 91.45% all they way down to 82.56%
It wasn't Linux getting all the Windows dropouts. Part of the Windows user drop had to do with the entry of Chromebooks, and an increase in MAC OSx users.
I can't find it right now, and I looked.
There was a list of Distro's and how many personal users of each downloaded new updates.
Linux Mint topped the list with the most number of users. Followed by Ubuntu, Debian, and Suse.
There were well over twenty Distro's listed but almost all of them the count was way down below the top four.
Programs like WINE and Play on Linux have improved so much over the years, that now you can run nearly any Windows program on Linux. Including those with on-line links you could not use at all before unless you used a Virtual Machine with a Windows OS running which made them run slower.
The only thing keeping my frau from moving to Linux was her Big Fish Games, which uses an on-line controller program to keep track of them. Previously WINE could only run the ones you did a complete download of. But now WINE works with the Big Fish on-line controller to allow downloads in the controller play window.
I'm working on getting this set to try for myself before swapping out the frau's computer.
Although the specs on her newest computer I have up here are minimal. I really got took on that purchase!
Re: Way To Go - Finally
Windows 7 was the end of an era, the MBR era. Anything from Microsoft after that era is UEFI based. People grumble no matter what kind of change they are forced to make, and that was the case with Windows 8. I avoided that generation of computers altogether but made the mistake of keeping Windows 7 in the MBR mode. Ten years ago that might have been a valid decision, but in today's world MBR is sinking rapidly into the quicksand. Contrary to popular belief the switch to UEFI is not an Intel/Microsoft conspiracy. They did collaborate on the specifications, but so did a dozen other groups and manufacturers. Linux was well represented during the formation of UEFI standards. Everybody was on board when Microsoft drew the line, but in their typical fashion they bungled the migration. The general public was not ready in spite of the fact they could not do things in their MBR world which are easy peasy in the UEFI world. The reason, of course, is that the general public has no mind for anything technical. They just want it to work, whatever it is.
The statistics showing a decrease in Windows users are misleading. Even if Windows was the undisputed best OS in the world, the decrease would still occur. People are drifting away from PC's and going mobile. A lot of us have both, but I'd venture a guess that full 9% drop in Windows users is due to the mobile take over of the computing world. Is Windows 10 a pain? Yes it is for folks who don't make changes easily. I found Linux, Mint in particular, to be a problem child. But, so what? My issues won't change the way the world is moving toward a different kind of computing. I think you are right about Mint taking the top spot for downloads and new installations. There is hope for Mint now that they came up to what is the current Linux kernel, the 5.x.x series. It was all a convoluted mess prior to that, and it was not confined to Mint. Those older kernels are MBR oriented no matter what the OS developers are trying to tell you. The newest kernel has some potential and might have caught up to where Microsoft has been trying to establish itself when it dumped the MBR scheme in 2013 version of Windows 8.
I don't know when the dust will settle and everybody will be on the same UEFI train. It probably will happen the day a new standard is invented and make UEFI obsolete. LOL
The statistics showing a decrease in Windows users are misleading. Even if Windows was the undisputed best OS in the world, the decrease would still occur. People are drifting away from PC's and going mobile. A lot of us have both, but I'd venture a guess that full 9% drop in Windows users is due to the mobile take over of the computing world. Is Windows 10 a pain? Yes it is for folks who don't make changes easily. I found Linux, Mint in particular, to be a problem child. But, so what? My issues won't change the way the world is moving toward a different kind of computing. I think you are right about Mint taking the top spot for downloads and new installations. There is hope for Mint now that they came up to what is the current Linux kernel, the 5.x.x series. It was all a convoluted mess prior to that, and it was not confined to Mint. Those older kernels are MBR oriented no matter what the OS developers are trying to tell you. The newest kernel has some potential and might have caught up to where Microsoft has been trying to establish itself when it dumped the MBR scheme in 2013 version of Windows 8.
I don't know when the dust will settle and everybody will be on the same UEFI train. It probably will happen the day a new standard is invented and make UEFI obsolete. LOL
Re: Way To Go - Finally
I don't think UEFI is as much of a problem as so many OS's going the Cell Phone look alike route.
Is old timers don't like our desktop computers to work like a cell phone, especially with all the clutter.
Linux Mint Cinnamon is like that, which is why us old timers use the Maya desktop.
Or on Debian the Mate desktop.
For nearly 20 years all I ever heard was Keep Your Desktop Clean.
Now it's the opposite, clutter it up as much as possible.
And if you don't, the OS will do it for you!
AS I said before Windows thinks it is GOD and does not play nice at all in the computer arena.
They know they are losing customers right and left to Linux, and their own programmers hate Windows, which is one reason they are adding Linux capability to Windows now, mainly to get their own programmers back to using Windows instead of Linux to do their work. I've heard various numbers about how many programmers working for Mickey$oft do their work on Linux boxes, ranging from 65% all the way up to 90%. They need Linux in order to make Windows work, hi hi.
Is old timers don't like our desktop computers to work like a cell phone, especially with all the clutter.
Linux Mint Cinnamon is like that, which is why us old timers use the Maya desktop.
Or on Debian the Mate desktop.
For nearly 20 years all I ever heard was Keep Your Desktop Clean.
Now it's the opposite, clutter it up as much as possible.
And if you don't, the OS will do it for you!
AS I said before Windows thinks it is GOD and does not play nice at all in the computer arena.
They know they are losing customers right and left to Linux, and their own programmers hate Windows, which is one reason they are adding Linux capability to Windows now, mainly to get their own programmers back to using Windows instead of Linux to do their work. I've heard various numbers about how many programmers working for Mickey$oft do their work on Linux boxes, ranging from 65% all the way up to 90%. They need Linux in order to make Windows work, hi hi.
Re: Way To Go - Finally
I think you are missing the point. Who cares what OS the developers of Windows are using? Microsoft certainly doesn't care. It's the end product that brings in the money and not how it's developed.
You are absolutely correct about portable devices being cluttered with icons. They don't have a Start menu as does Windows so that there is no place to put those icons. The other misconception you bring up is about the desktop itself. Desktops don't exist on smartphone or tablets or any mobile device. Desktops are specific features of computers that where too big to put into your hip pocket and demanded a lot of wasted space to do their job. I have to agree with the old aphorism telling you to keep your desktop clean. They do look pretty that way, but I can't function without the important stuff being immediately visible. I keep about a dozen icons on my Windows 7 desktop because they are indispensable to me. The clever phone is a collection of junk icons that I rarely use ... but they look cute. LOL Seriously, it's very awkward to go through a directory tree on a smartphone. There is only so much room on the screen and your big chubby fingers need a lot of room to navigate. I think you would change your mind if you ever stopped using your computers to earn a living and do something productive. Those portable devices are fun to use and can do a heck of a lot more than any Linux distro I've been testing lately. And don't get me started on how Android is Linux.
You are absolutely correct about portable devices being cluttered with icons. They don't have a Start menu as does Windows so that there is no place to put those icons. The other misconception you bring up is about the desktop itself. Desktops don't exist on smartphone or tablets or any mobile device. Desktops are specific features of computers that where too big to put into your hip pocket and demanded a lot of wasted space to do their job. I have to agree with the old aphorism telling you to keep your desktop clean. They do look pretty that way, but I can't function without the important stuff being immediately visible. I keep about a dozen icons on my Windows 7 desktop because they are indispensable to me. The clever phone is a collection of junk icons that I rarely use ... but they look cute. LOL Seriously, it's very awkward to go through a directory tree on a smartphone. There is only so much room on the screen and your big chubby fingers need a lot of room to navigate. I think you would change your mind if you ever stopped using your computers to earn a living and do something productive. Those portable devices are fun to use and can do a heck of a lot more than any Linux distro I've been testing lately. And don't get me started on how Android is Linux.