DVI Connectors

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yogi
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DVI Connectors

Post by yogi » 23 May 2017, 11:50

Just in case you were curious about their configuration ...

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Kellemora
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Re: DVI Connectors

Post by Kellemora » 23 May 2017, 14:58

No wonder the stores can't stock a DVI cable that works.
Too many different kinds, hi hi...
And folks like me would never know the difference and never find one that works for our setup.

USB was supposed to be great, then they went and messed that up now too!

Pretty soon they will have to come out with a Magic Box that has every type of port, and a built in computer to figure out what device you connected, so it knows what to send out and to where, and in the right format to keep things working.

Sorta reminds me of back when I first became a Cub for a plumbing company.
There was nothing standard, except one brand name Standard, hi hi...
About the time I made it up to Journeyman level, a lot of things became standardized.
But that lasted about as long as an ice cube in hell.
All the plumbing component manufacturers decided that they had to have everything proprietary again.
We went from carrying a couple of bins of faucet parts, to needed an entire truck if we wanted to stock one each of every type of replacement part.
Heck, now you need to know your brand and model of toilet to get the right flush valve seal. Ridiculous!

I'm using HDMI cables for a couple of my monitors now, hi hi...

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yogi
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Re: DVI Connectors

Post by yogi » 23 May 2017, 18:41

There will always be us desktop users, but we are a dying breed. The trend is toward mobile devices where cables and attachments are being deprecated. If you need more than the smart device, it will be wireless. The next level after "smart" is wearable. Augmented reality will do what your computer and mobile devices do today but without the hardware. They are already talking about implanting computers into the skull to bring all this about. I don't know if you or I will see the fruits of augmented reality, but our children and grandchildren will.

Plumbing is an art form and not a trade. The whole industry is in chaos with everyone in the supply chain going in different directions. Standards, as you point out, only exist in name. It's a pretty good scam being perpetrated by the suppliers; almost as good as the computer industry. :mrgreen:

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Kellemora
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Re: DVI Connectors

Post by Kellemora » 24 May 2017, 14:42

I try not to use anything wireless. My keyboard and meeces are all hardwired, and they are getting harder and harder to find.

I learned the hard way that the smaller size desktop computers are also slower than molasses in the dead of winter.
I bought Debi one because her old computer had the video go out. Takes forever to do anything on it.
She already hates getting a new computer, because then she has to load all her stuff into it again. So I used to be able just to buy her a new one and plunk her hard drive from the old one into it. Can't do that anymore! The pre-installed OS and software is linked to the motherboards serial number. There might be a way to get it to work, but if so, I don't know what it is.
That's what I get for buying pre-loaded, off-the-shelf, computer for her. I normally wouldn't, but this time it was more like an emergency purchase to keep the frau happy, if you know what I mean, hi hi...

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yogi
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Re: DVI Connectors

Post by yogi » 25 May 2017, 07:32

I've migrated Windows 7 a few times not only to a new HDD but also into an entirely new system - the one I built from scratch, for example. It took these few attempts to figure out how to do it with relative ease. I'll be glad to explain how I did it. You are correct that Microsoft has a profile of your system and that is what the product key is tied to. There is a finite number of times they will allow you to jump to a new system, but as long as you have a legal copy they will even assist you in the process. In my case they changed the product key somewhere along the line. It is no longer what it is on the original install DVD. It's very important to have that product key handy because you will need it to validate the OS once it is migrated. There are several utilities online that will get that key for you but the one from Nirsoft is my favorite.

With product key in hand you are ready to move. Migration can be accomplished in one of two ways - there may be others but this is all I know about. First and easiest might be to install Partition Wizard on the Windows system you wish to migrate. They have an option to walk you through the process automatically. Being a partition manager, I'm guessing it will take care of any required partitioning on the target drive. This is important because, as you know, you want the target to be the same size or larger than the source partition.

The other method is the one I've actually used a few times. I create a system image via the Windows Control Panel and restore the image to the new HDD. Again, partition size is important when doing this. I generally reduce the size of my original partition so that it will fit on any target drive. You also will have to take into account any recovery partition that goes along with the system partition on the OEM installation of the the OS. I've used gparted (I think) for this purpose. The disk manager included in Windows sucks so that a third party partition manage is the best way to go.

Once the OS is migrated it's time to activate it via the Control Panel. This is when you will need your product key. If you don't have the key there should be options to get it from Microsoft via the telephone or online. I forgot how that works, but I do recall calling them on two occasions. It was a hassle because the key is very long and you only get one shot at it. You have to start over if you miss a character. Once your OS is activated you are good to go. I realize you are dealing with an OEM install, but I don't know of any restrictions that would prohibit you from migrating. All the syncing to S/N's is done when you validate the product. There are registry entries you can edit manually, which is where NirSoft gets it's information from. Unfortunately, I have no idea where they are.

Aside from being tedious, the migration process is pretty straight forward. It's not as easy as moving Linux, but then you don't need to buy a license for Linux. You could also try to run Windows in a virtual machine. I've done it with Vista just to prove it can be done, but I never migrated fully or validated a VM. Migrating to new hardware would seem to be more comfortable for your wife anyway.

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Kellemora
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Re: DVI Connectors

Post by Kellemora » 25 May 2017, 15:06

The frau is finally used to using Win10, and when I was talking to my computer guy about building me a new computer, I asked about one for the frau already loaded with Win10 pro instead of home version so the LAN will work with it. They can load the machine with an OEM version for about 150 bucks, but an MS version that can be moved to a new machine later would cost around 225 bucks pre-loaded for me. 200 for the OS and 25 bucks to install.

Then he began talking about Win10 Pro, Win10 Pro Enterprise 3, and Win10 Pro Enterprise 5.
As always, they need to make things more complicated than I understand.
All I need is Win10 Pro so it will work properly on our LAN.

After all you said above, I'll start here with this tidbit. OEM versions of Win10 are NOT supported by Mickey$oft, and they CANNOT be transferred to another computer, period. The OEM versions Must Be Installed on a Clean New Machine, not just on a different blank HD. Once installed, it can be moved to another drive on the same computer, but not to a different computer.

I always thought OEM meant Original Equipment Manufacturer, which in the case of an OS would mean by Mickey$oft, so I learned something new about that term too. OEM means the OS is designed to be installed by manufacturers of hardware, not necessarily by end users, and is LOCKED to whatever device it is first installed on.
For this reason, he recommends I buy the MS version for 200 bucks.

If you are wondering why I didn't get the computer I planned on buying for myself. I was put on a script that cost 400 bucks a month, while I was waiting for the change to a new insurance company, which can only be done in November. Then I wound up back in the hospital again, because the new drug that replaced the 400 buck a month one made me worse instead of better. So all of the funds I had saved to get a new computer were spent on medications and doctors bills.

I'm thankful for the Silver Yogi as it is the only computer I have that works right. The one I was using before I got this one finally died completely. The others are too old to use for anything except writing or accounting, and each of them have their own problems, so are useless for doing anything on-line.

He can still build me a great computer for around 450 bucks for myself, or one for the frau for around 675 due to the cost of the real version of Win10Pro. I can't get by with 300 to 350 buck machines anymore, if I want any kind of speed. I don't really need a gaming machine, which he can build for around 600 to 800 bucks, or a bigger jump up to 1400 dollar super gaming machines.

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yogi
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Re: DVI Connectors

Post by yogi » 26 May 2017, 08:00

OK on the explanation of OEM. I know those are in fact official Microsoft operating systems. They are purchased in bulk but not exactly the same as those you can buy OTC or download because the OEM versions leave room for customization you don't see in a standard install. You don't get a separate media disc per se, but you can make a recovery disc from the partition installed for that purpose. The few laptops I bought with Windows pre-installed were not migrated. I got such a good deal on the hardware that I blew away the OS and installed Linux or something in place of what came built in. I have migrated the OS a few times, but I doubt any of it was OEM.

I don't know if your wife would be interested, but there is a way to get Windows 10 free. Some people have written that there is a download choice for people who need accessibility features. That version is free. All others need to be bought. I was under the impression the license was closer to $100 than $200 for the Pro version, but none of that matters when you cannot afford even that much. I don't know what your tech is doing for you when he claims he can build you something for $450. He must have some unusual sources for components or is not giving you what you think you are getting in terms of performance.

Windows 10 has another free option for people signed up to their Insiders program. It's essentially a beta testing scheme where the OS gets updated with the latest and greatest features that have not hit the market yet. In the very earliest days of the program I had some infrequent issues, but the last year or so has gone very well for my needs. The only glitch is that the weekly update may occur at an inconvenient time, but even then they don't slow you down very much. So, if you and/or Debbie are just a little daring, try out the evaluation copies. If she isn't satisfied, you can always purchase a stable release copy later on. I'm using my laptop to write this and it has the Win10 I got free for joining the program. From what I can tell there is no end to the program, which suits my needs very well. When I have to start paying for Windows Services, I'll be using Minty Cinnamon as my default OS. :mrgreen:

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Kellemora
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Re: DVI Connectors

Post by Kellemora » 26 May 2017, 15:30

I know you said BUS Speed is more important than CPU speed, and I don't know what the bus speed of any of my old computers were. I just know I got by with using only 4 gigs of memory and never had the graphics slow down.
In fact, I took 2 gigs out and used it on another computer that had the exact same Mobo, and both never used the Swap File.
However, that being said, after I got the Silver Yogi and saw what a difference extra memory made, I upped my old machine to 8 gigs and it was ten times faster, for some reason I really don't understand.

My two old computers, which were destroyed by lighting, when I purchased them they had the following:
#1 was an Asus M2N68-AM Motherboard with a dual core AMD X2-250 - 3.0 gHz CPU and 4 gigs of ram. Cost 300 bucks in a new case with DVD recorder and 250 gig SATA HD.
#2 used an old case, we added an Asus M2N68-AM (85 bucks) and a dual core AMD A4-6320 - 3.2 gHz CPU (120 bucks), it already had a DVD and 120 gig SATA HD. I stole 2 gigs of memory from #1 to use in #2, and saw no slowdown on #1.

My newest computer (now dead), had an Asus F2A85-M2 MoBo and dual core AMD Athlon X2-64 - 4.0 gHz CPU. Cost 320 bucks in a new case with DVD recorder and 500 gig SATA HD. At the time, he sold 500 gig SATA HDs for 85 bucks each, but only charged 75 if included in a computer build.

The new one he was going to build for me a couple of months ago, was going to cost like 450 bucks if I remember right. Or maybe that was the one he was going to build for the frau, and the one for me was going to be about 75 dollars more because I wanted 16 gigs of ram instead of 8 as in Debi's. Other than that, they would have been the same MoBo and CPU.
I just found my notes, some of them anyhow. Her computer was going to have an AMD FX-4350 Quad Core CPU (75 bucks), and mine was going to have an FX-8350 Quad Core (120 bucks). I don't have the sheet showing which MoBo he was going to use.
Although I wanted to use my old cases, he would have had to put in larger power supplies, which would cost more than buying new cases with the power supplies already in them.

We have two other shops here that build computers, but one only does what he wants and charges a fixed price for a machine.
While the guy I use charges us for the components individually, and gives a discount on them if they build the computer.
Then we have this nut job who is super cheap, but he cannot be trusted. He tells you one thing, then uses cheaper components than he told us he was using. I used him to build the frau's previous computer, it was supposed to have an 85 dollar Asus M series MoBo, but when I opened the case to add a second hard drive, I saw he used a cheap 39 dollar Biostar MCP6P-M2 MoBo. It died last year when the graphics went out and I bought her the off the shelf mini-computer. The specs looked good, however, it has no extra slots, and runs as slow as molasses in the dead of winter. We Got Took, AGAIN, which is why I never buy off-the-shelf pre-builts. It's an Acer, but I don't remember much else about it now, without going down to look.

Although some places try to soak you double the price for CPUs and Memory Cards, the guy I use always sells for less than you can buy them through Amazon, NewEgg, Tiger Direct, or other computer parts places, and even gives a discount if they do the computer build. Rarely if ever do they charge more than 125 bucks to build a computer, only 100 bucks if you use one of their new cases they don't have to mess with to get the board and components in.

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yogi
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Re: DVI Connectors

Post by yogi » 26 May 2017, 16:14

That last paragraph is the point of my wondering. How does your PC building person get away undercutting the large discount shops? I suppose you can buy direct from the manufacturer if you buy enough, but I'm not sure AMD or Intel even deals with direct sales. In any case, if you can get what you want for under $500, go for it. I'd have to do a lot of research to compare specs in order to know what kind of deal you are getting. It sounds too good to be true. :mrgreen:

The GHz rating on processors is the clock speed internal to the µP. It does not run at that speed 100% of the time, but whatever is stated is what it is capable of doing. Getting the data from your memory to the input pins of the µP is what takes the longest amount of time. The µP is capable of making many requests from memory before the first set of data arrives. Thus it is the transfer speed of the internal bus that determines how fast things go. Designers know about this problem and thus store a lot of the instructions and data in processor cache. It can retrieve data at full processor clock speed that way. The next faster transfer is from RAM to the processor, and that path is generally the fastest bus on any motherboard. So, if you can imagine, the instructions to the µP and prefetched data are read off the HDD, sent to RAM, Transferred to L2 cache which sends it to L1 cache which is what the processor runs off. My best guess is that all this prefetched data is stored in RAM given that the L1 and L2 are internal to the chip.

There is software (in Linux even) which allows you to use RAM as disk memory. Thus you can achieve the fastest data transfer possible if you read off the RAM disk and eliminate the need for reading the HDD. I'm doing it on my ASUS mobo and it's breathtaking, not only for execution time but also for download storage off the Internet. I stole about 4GB out of the 16GB available for this purpose and have not noticed any degradation in system response. That means my system doesn't need all 16GB of RAM and runs well with only the 12GB dedicated to the system. I think it also helps that my primary hard drive is SSD. You just can't get any faster without overclocking. I don't do that, although I can.

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Kellemora
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Re: DVI Connectors

Post by Kellemora » 27 May 2017, 16:39

I understand what you are saying. Not only is bus speed important, but the amount of Cache in the CPU. I notice this difference after I start programs following a cold boot.
The X2-250 CPU had 2 megs of internal Cache, and the older A series CPU only had 1 meg of internal cache.
I keep a System Monitor running, and it shows almost nothing in RAM storage after a cold boot.
But as I load programs, it uses up some of my RAM for faster loading of programs.
Then of course the running program uses RAM also.
It displays how the RAM is used, User, Shared, Buffers, and Cached.
Although I don't really know what each of those things mean, I do know it must memorize which programs I use the most, or most often, because they load much faster than programs I don't use all that often, but still maintained in cache.

I just looked at the boxes my MoBo's came in (yes the builder gives me the boxes everything came in), and none of them show what the bus speed is on the main bus. I guess I could look that kind of info up on-line.
Interesting also is the retail price stickers are on the boxes. The oldest board was 70 bucks and the newer 80 bucks. These prices are at least 5 dollars cheaper than the on-line discount stores, and he knocks even more off if they build the machine for you.
Now that the old guy who owned the place died, and his employee's took it over and moved across the street, perhaps the deals won't be as good as they once were.
The store was Computer King Knoxville. They always got horrible ratings, probably from competition, because they read something like. "The store is stocked with cheap garbage and used machines."
Yes, he had a huge selection of used machines on hand, most for 50 to 200 bucks, something none of the other stores around here have. Old used machines are handy for a lot of things. And he does take in trades when you buy a new machine from him. Heck, I bought a couple of his old 75 buck machines so I could read my IDE drives, hi hi...
I LIKE CHEAP Too! I got to the point I use a lot of external devices. And as fast as hardware changes, I buy the cheap external Samsung DVD recorders, I forget now if it was 9.99 or 19.99, but do have a SATA one in each computer also. It's just easier to stick the portable into the KVM switch USB port without getting up from my desk.
But you have to realize also, those into Intel call all AMD stuff junk. The other dealers here do not sell AMD anything. They all stock Intel and HP and nothing much else.
The guy who owned Computer King, before he died, started the business when he was like 45 years old and went big on handling business machines. Most businesses do not need gaming computers to use as workstations, so he garnered almost all small to medium size business here in Knoxville. He was also the only place in town where you could often wait to get your computer repaired, unless it was something major. He also sold the good stuff too, he just didn't stock too much of it.

Oh, you had asked how he undersells the discount stores. I don't know for sure, but going by what I see on his store shelves, when I bought a new computer where they used the MrN68-AM MoBo, they had over 50 of them on the shelf. The same applies to when I got another computer, only this time the main shelves all had the F2A85-M2 MoBo's. Plus the higher up shelves with the more expensive MoBo's probably had about 20 each of three or four different higher end MoBo's.
If I had to guess, I would say they probably sold at least 50 desktops per month, because every time I was in there, the shelves of MoBo's had a different part number on them, and the drawers with the CPUs were all different each time.
When one of my MeN68-AM mobos died, I couldn't get another one from him, sold out, had to move up to what he had that month. But when you are only talking about 80 bucks, plus 100 for the matching CPU for the board, it was doable. If they were fixing a machine you bought from them, by adding new mobo and CPU, they often did not charge build labor.
Which tells me, the mobos and cpus have a good markup on them already, even if they are cheaper than the discount places.

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yogi
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Re: DVI Connectors

Post by yogi » 27 May 2017, 17:26

The bus speed(s) of the motherboard can be determined by looking at the individual specs for each component. The chip set that interfaces with the µP is not standard, although the motherboard itself is. As you know many processors will physically fit on a given mobo, and the same is true of the chip sets that control the PCI and AGP buses. The chip set throughput varies in the same fashion as it does going through the µP. The mobo manufacturer doesn't know what chips you will put on their board so that it's hard for them to specify bus speeds. You would think the OEM who designs the system would know what the chips are capable of doing. Maybe they do, but it takes some major effort to find out if they don't tell you beforehand.

I have an idea what your computer builder might be doing. I've run into shops on E-Bay where they sell new things at ridiculously low prices. Either they robbed a warehouse, or they bought a load of stock from a company going out of business. When Comp USA went out of business, for example, they unloaded their stock to the wholesale market. I also understand there are auctions where you can buy stock from distressed businesses, such as a company whose warehouse was blown over by a tornado but wasn't totally destroyed. I'm sure you could get some very cheap components if you know where to look. But, as you say, the inventory changes daily. Technically it's all new merchandise in the sense it was never sold previously. Truth is an AMD processor will work just as well if it comes in a pristine package or in one that has a discolored box.

I've also heard stories about AMD being inferior to Intel. There may have been some truth to that in the early days, but at this stage of the game the technology is about equal. Owning an Intel processor is like owning an Apple computer. Something about the name makes it seem better.

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Kellemora
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Re: DVI Connectors

Post by Kellemora » 28 May 2017, 15:32

Going way back to the 286 and 386 days, AMD made the better chips, but not necessarily cheaper than what Intel chips sold for back then.
What I do remember about those days was if you bought an Intel CPU, you had to buy a separate math co-processor to go with it. While AMD already had the math part built into their chips.

It was during the 386 era, and the computer gaming explosion where Intel began to shine, and eventually took the lead, which they have held ever since. But in the business world, especially those using PCs for business accounting purposes, AMD was the better choice.
The Cougar Mountain accounting system, although it ran on all PC computers, ran faster and without glitches on a computer using an AMD CPU. On long runs of number crunching, it would make a minor error from time to time on an Intel CPU. But we all knew about this number problem back then too, so it was not unexpected on either CPU brand.

I got started with both the 8080A and 6502 Microprocessors. In almost all cases, the 6502 used on apple mobos outshined the 8080A used on PC mobos, which is why I wound up sticking with apple's for so long. Then as we moved into the 286 era, as I mentioned above, AMD was the only way to go for folks like me.

Why do I still buy AMD over Intel is a good question. I can honestly say, at first, it was because of price. AMD's were always much lower in cost for the same or better computing power.
More recently, it is because a new machine I bought, had built by a newer computer center here, the one I mentioned that used only Intel, the machine he built would not run Linux so I had to take it back. Then wait for like three months for him to build me an AMD machine. Which I found out later, he didn't build at all but got from the guy who usually builds my machines for me. Learned this when I brought it in to upgrade the memory. They recognized it as one of their machines, which was good really, because then I didn't have to pay as much for the service of adding more memory.

It's sorta like this. I've always bought GM vehicles for myself, but bought Ford trucks for work. Especially where I would have different people driving them. If I had to install new computers in an office setting, I would probably go with Intel powered computers. But for my home use computers, even though I use them for business, I would probably stick with AMD. But as you pointed out, it really doesn't matter much anymore because they are about equal in each power range.

If I knew how, I would probably build my own computers, but heck, I can't even seem to be able to add my own memory sticks and get them to work, so I leave it up to my cheap building to do it for me.

I do know they buy some manufacturer faulty CPU's, but they are up front about it. They were selling quad core CPUs as Three Core CPUs, because one of the cores was bad. Naturally, they got these for a song and dance. I didn't buy a computer with one of these, but stuck with my dual core CPU instead, which did cost a little more than the Three core CPUs they were selling.
I was afraid if one core was bad, the others would soon follow. But since then I learned it was just a bad run of chips that caused one the cores to be non functional, and it should not have affected the rest. Even so, I was leery, hi hi...

Since yesterday when you asked about pricing, I did some checking around.
An ASUS M5A 78L-M LX AMD AM3+ mobo with a suggested retail price of 139 bucks.
Amazon and NewEgg both sold them for 95 bucks.
Supplies Outlet for 89.98
e-Bay ranged from 89 to 79 depending on seller.
A quick call to my computer builder, he has that exact one right now for 66.89 or if sold in a new computer build 56.89 or ten bucks off their price. Which he added was what they would have to pay for them if they bought 20 to 25 of them, but they buy way over that amount, so they save on the price too. I know from seeing cartons around their place, they buy from Outlet Direct. So, checking with outlet direct it turns out he was not fibbing. If they buy 20 to 25, they pay 56.89 each, and if they buy 26 to 50 they only pay 46.88 each, between 51 and 100 they are only 41.88 each, but I know they don't buy that many at once. But I'm sure places like Amazon and NewEgg are getting that bottom tier price!

So there you have it. Amazon is probably paying 42 bucks for the mobo they resell for 95 bucks.
Which is the normal markup for most businesses. Cost plus inbound freight, doubled to get the retail sale price.

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yogi
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Re: DVI Connectors

Post by yogi » 28 May 2017, 17:06

All I could add to your observations is that I would have a hard time convincing myself to buy a 3 core processor. I know why it is only 3 cores and I too would worry about hidden damage to the other cores. It's probably a safe buy, but a lot of the software today is written to take advantage of 4 cores. I'd perceive an inferior response even if that missing core didn't matter to the software. :mrgreen:

My laptop has an AMD µP of an unknown variety - I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment. It runs hot which is the only valid complaint I've heard about AMD hardware, but then it's inside a small laptop case. Maybe it is supposed to run hot. It did shut down a time or two due to overheating, but 99% of the time there is no problem that I can attribute to the processor.

I now you can build your own computer if you made an attempt. You might need some help with specs because the data sheets for individual components are not always intuitively obvious. But, if you had all the parts you need on a table, you too could build a PC in a couple hours. Most of that build time would be routing wires and not assembling the package. I don't know about anything other than ASUS mobo's, and the one I got was exceptionally good at explaining where components go. There are pictures in the manual and labels all over the board so that it's pretty difficult to make a mistake. First time power up is always breathtaking, but all you need is the right drivers to make things go. Those drivers usually are supplied with the board, or you can get them easily off their web site. I understand what you are saying about installing memory can be a life long challenge, and I was of that impression for many years too. But, one day I decided to go for broke and build my own - mainly because my PC builder wasn't too interested in making a high performance machine for me. Soooo ... if I can do it, so can you.

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Kellemora
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Re: DVI Connectors

Post by Kellemora » 29 May 2017, 15:46

I'm embarrassed to say, I used to be a chip level technician who solved problems before the manufacturers figured it out.
But all it took was one of my attacks, and I couldn't fix a simple analog power supply afterward.

My problem would basically be buying the right parts that go together properly.
But since I have someone who builds computers cheaply, and never charges me to add things to a box I bring in. I guess I don't have to try it myself.

I do find things in the bio's on one of my motherboards that has shocked me. It shows settings to select IDE or SATA HDs, but there are no IDE connector receptacles on the MoBo. My only thought was they use the same bios on several MoBo's.

I did learn the hard way, you cannot take the CPU off one motherboard and move it to an identical mobo.
I had the capacitors swell causing a mobo to go bad. Bought an identical mobo and a tube of the grease for the heat sink.
Swapped it out, added the grease, clamped down the heat sink, installed the CPU fan and powered it up.
It ran for all of about 20 minutes, then the new mobo fried. I took it into the shop and they said the CPU was probably damaged when the old mobo fried, and damaged the mobo. They may have been talking through their hat, but they replaced the mobo under warranty, and sold me a new CPU, and put it in the case for me too, for 50 bucks labor. Worked great after that.
So it's best I don't touch the insides of those confounded computin' contraptions, hi hi...

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Re: DVI Connectors

Post by yogi » 29 May 2017, 19:23

I can help you with a parts list, but given your situation with the PC builder there is no point for you to DIY other than for the pure satisfaction of doing it. Aside from that, you know exactly what you have and how to handle it because you did the research putting it together.

You told me about the memory problems you have and I guess that could be a show stopper. There is only one way to install a CPU given the sockets are indexed so that it would be pretty hard to mess that up. Same goes for cables from the PSU. An 8-pin male only fits an 8-pin female connector. What could go wrong? Switching to another mobo of similar vintage should not be a problem. You probably were told right that the micro was damaged and took the new mobo with it. Those suckers can sink a lot of amps if you give them the opportunity. :mrgreen:

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Kellemora
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Re: DVI Connectors

Post by Kellemora » 30 May 2017, 15:24

Yeah, about those MoBo connectors. Of the ones I have moved myself, they come apart, one board uses the big connector, and the next board uses the big one plus the little small one right next to it to make up a larger connector.

Like the Graphics Card from the silver yogi, it needs power from the supply not found on any of my other computers. I think it is more than just adding those plugs to the existing ones using Y-connectors, but maybe I'm wrong.

I have several 2 and 4 gig memory boards sitting here, which came out of computers as I discarded them.
There is always some reason they cannot be used, even if they are the same type, the speeds or different, or the mobo requires they be in matched pairs. Anything to keep you from using what you have. Also, the new memory boards are faster anyhow.

So, although it is dead now, I had an older computer with only 2 gigs of memory. The single stick that was in it was marked DDR2-800 PC2-6400.
OK, I have two more sticks that read exactly the same way, almost. These two say STT DDR2-800 PC6400.
These were not the cheap memory sticks either, with the exposed chips, they are made by Super Talent and have aluminum heat sinks on both sides of the rows of chips.
Unless there is a difference between PC2-6400 and PC6400, they should work, right.

When I look on-line at memory sticks, almost all of them you see are just chips on a board with no heat sinks. And of course they are much cheaper than the good ones.
The only ones my computer guy sells, the one who was said to sell only junk, all have aluminum heat sinks on the memory sticks. So naturally they cost more than the cheap johns, but they are cheaper than you find the same ones for on-line.

Here is the link to what I have on hand, wow, the price had dropped considerably from what they used to be.
It's an eBay link so may not be there long.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-Talent-2G ... 2122115979

My only question, now that I'm looking at how low the prices on memory sticks are right now.
Why do most of them not have heat sinks on them. Are they not needed?

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Re: DVI Connectors

Post by yogi » 30 May 2017, 18:59

Your STT DDR2-800 PC6400 memory can run at 800MHz at 1.8VDC, but under normal use it will not. The manufacturer of the memory did all the math and calculated what the max power draw would be at top speed. The answer is in watts (which is a secret apparently because I can't locate THAT spec), which is easily translated into degrees of heat. Thus they know you can never draw enough current to melt the silicon, or degrade it's performance. Those memory sticks with heat sinks are probably faster and definitely have more silicon switches inside - thus can draw more current and generate more heat. A heat sink will be needed to prevent melt down. But, the sink adds to the cost so that it's only provided when absolutely needed.

That's my best guess anyway. :mrgreen:

While this isn't perfect, the link will give you some idea what the markings on the RAM actually mean. And, of course, not everybody has all the marks on their chips. http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=179

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Kellemora
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Re: DVI Connectors

Post by Kellemora » 31 May 2017, 16:06

Interesting read Yogi!
I remember back when we installed RAM a single chip at a time on the many slots on the motherboard.
I guess I can assume that the memory sticks I have do have heat sinks because they used cheaper materials aka chips to make them and they needed the heat sinks to keep them cool?
It wasn't too long ago that memory sticks cost 60 to 80 bucks per gig, which is why I held onto those I took out of machines. Only to find they don't work in any new machines, too slow for one.
But I still don't understand why two matching sticks I have and showed the link to, would not work in the machine that used the same size and speed of memory stick.
I did look them up on-line and for that particular motherboard, all of them on the page were shown to work with it just fine.

Now it could be the sticks are bad, but even if they are, they should still have worked enough to run a test on them to see they are bad, not just get a computer that won't boot up at all. But wait, they came out of a working computer and worked when I put them back in the computer I took them from. Then took them back out again because I put only two 512 meg sticks in that old computer to use only for printing from until it finally died.

And here I thought by buying the ones with heat sinks, I was getting something better, hi hi...

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Re: DVI Connectors

Post by yogi » 31 May 2017, 17:36

I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier, but Wikipedia is frequently the best source for explaining things clearly. I've been trying to think of a reason why your "identical" memory would work on one mobo but not on another of a similar ilk. I still don't know why, but the linked article in Wikipedia gives a hint. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDR2_SDRAM

Check out the two tables that give specs for modules. I'm looking at the PC2-6400 (peak transfer rate) and note something interesting. There are three versions for this same module. The difference seems to be in what they call CAS latency. The second table spells it out even more clearly by comparing the three versions of PC2-6400 against one another (as well as against related chips). The speed can be different.

Sooooo, what I'm getting at is the motherboards may specify PC2-6400, but which version of it? The two motherboards might require a different version of the PC2-6400 family. The timing (4-4-4, 5-5-5, 6-6-6) is often not specified, but that is what has to be matched when it's calling for a matched pair.

It's either that or a hardware failure on the motherboard that doesn't work. :mrgreen:


By implication the heat sink on a memory card indicates it is capable of doing more work than a card without the sink. As I mentioned before it's a matter of power=watts=work. However, I can also imagine some chips are so inefficiently designed that they generate a lot of heat even if they perform worse than their big brothers. So, the extra copper/aluminum usually is a good indicator of quality, but not always.

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Re: DVI Connectors

Post by Kellemora » 01 Jun 2017, 12:39

Hi Yogi
I've hit problems trying to upgrade to more memory in some of my computers, because the motherboard had like a 2 gig limit.
I just checked on my old computer, and it did have a 4 gig limit, but two 2 gig sticks were not over 4 gigs.
Since those computers are now dead, I won't keep worrying about it.
If I do get a new computer built, it will need all the current memory sticks anyhow.
And since I see they don't cost an arm and a leg any more, I may talk to my computer guy again about going with a cheaper computer with whatever he's getting the best deals on at the time.
Where I always get myself into trouble is when I start saying I want this or I want that, rather than just tell the guy how I use the computer, and let him make one that works for me the best.

Oh, I tried using remote desktop on a couple of computers with Windows XP that are not connected to the KVM.
It works OK if I want to play a Windows game, like one of the ones on Debi's computer, if she's not on, because a connect knocks her off. I know there is a way to connect that won't do that, but I was just playing around with one of her on-line games. It had small pauses but not enough to mess with the kind of game it was. Then I had to get back to work.

I'm seeing a lot more rack computers used by small businesses. I have no idea how they are set up, but I only see a monitor and keyboard on the desks, usually wireless. So perhaps each desk is using a separate computer in the cabinet?
If I was much younger, I might study on these rack systems more, but in all honesty, I'm slowly winding down all I did do on the computers. I basically do my e-mail, surf the web, and do my writing. Very little accounting to do anymore, sales are way down, which is scary because I need the little extra money to keep ahead of the bills. I ain't getting any younger either!

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