Debian Linux Mint

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Kellemora
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Re: Debian Linux Mint

Post by Kellemora » 05 Aug 2019, 09:49

Hmmm, our Internet does not go out when the power does. Power outages are usually isolated to only a few streets or in some cases a small area served by a substation. Even the cable boosters you see mounted on utility poles has battery backup inside those boxes.

However, if your modem and router are not also connected to the UPS, then you wouldn't have Internet.

FWIW: There have been times when the frau's Schmartz-Fone received no signal in our house where she usually has 4 to 5 bars. The cell tower does have battery backup, but it only lasts for about 1/2 hour then it too goes dead. Probably an older battery system in it I imagine, because it takes like 3 hours for the tower at her sisters house to go down when their power is out.

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yogi
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Re: Debian Linux Mint

Post by yogi » 05 Aug 2019, 14:03

Technically you are correct. The Internet is always on. My modem, however, relies on the electric company to sustain life. Same for the router. My neighbor in the old neighborhood had the best solution for power outages. He had a gas fired generator that would switch in when the electric company failed. I liked that idea and often wondered if it would be worth using that instead of connecting to the power grid. Gas is pretty cheap from what I can tell.

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Kellemora
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Re: Debian Linux Mint

Post by Kellemora » 06 Aug 2019, 11:48

Back in St. Louis gas was cheap, but not down here in TN, which is why we don't even have gas lines in our neighborhood.
Some areas have gas, but not the subdivisions in South Knoxville, since our electric here was so cheap, or used to be, but it is still cheaper than gas.

Now when you get into some commercial areas, they have gas, and many stores use gas air-conditioners, especially restaurants with gas cooking appliances. Nothing better than a 16 burner gas grill for frying burgers on, hi hi.
Very few homes, even if they do have gas use gas AC units, simply because the price of residential electric is so cheap here.

Now back home, my Ham Radio Station had something unique you don't see everyday.
When they remodeled St. John's Hospital ER, I managed to get one of the Post Glover Line Isolation Transformers used in the ER surgery rooms. It was only used to power all the outlets in the office where my radio station was located, and one wall of kitchen outlets next to the stairway to the basement.
Although I didn't get a permit to install it, I did have to have the electrical inspector come out to check my work before buttoning up the walls again. I already had the massive UPS system to power all the radio equipment in place. He was more than amazed at my layout, as simple as it looked. I remember a comment he made about all houses should be required to have one of these, which really surprised me because I don't see the purpose they would serve as a whole house unit. However, what they do perform is isolating the power in the house from the power coming in from the pole. Even so, it is still nothing more than a transformer, so electric goes in, and electric comes out. It does act as voltage spike buffer, and does prevent overloads on a circuit, but is not really a surge protector in the sense of what a surge protector is designed to do or block. If the power jumps up to 140 volts in, you are going to get 140 volts out from a line isolation transformer without other voltage taps. I have a rather large Variac connected to some of my ham equipment to maintain a constant 120 volts to the ac equipment, since line voltages fluctuate quite a bit throughout the day. I had our house on the 130 volt tap on the pole mounted transformer, so normally had between 105 and 125 volts coming in.
Why the 130 volt tap? Because you are billed by kwh used. Ohms law proves the lower the voltage, the higher you are charged for electric. So during those peak times just before dinner, line voltages can drop below 100, sometimes as low as 90 volts, but not usually that low. But if you do the math, even at 100 volts, vs 120 volts, you'll see an increase in what you are paying for electric.

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yogi
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Re: Debian Linux Mint

Post by yogi » 06 Aug 2019, 15:23

Power (W) = Amps (I) x Volts (E)

So, you are absolutely correct to say that the lower the voltage the lower the watts.
Watts, however, is a measure of work, or horsepower. Thus, if you lower the watts, you pay less for the electric, but you will do less work. Your 1 horse a/c motor isn't running at full speed with lower wattage. Thus you get less cooling. To my way of thinking it would be better to pay the price to keep the a/c working efficiently at peak wattage. That way it doesn't turn on as often, even though it's more expensive to run when it is on.

I don't want to do the math. It's probably a wash as far as economics goes. :lol:

At one time I had thought about using a line conditioner for my computer equipment. Besides keeping the voltage steady it would also prevent damage from surges. The surges typically occurred when the power was restored after an outage. One time a nearby lightning strike wiped out a phone or two, and I'm not sure even a line conditioner would have helped there. I decided against it because the electric company around Chicago was very good at keeping the voltage steady. It usually sat at 117 vac, but I heard it does go up to 120 and down to 110 at times. The big surprise to me happened when they started to itemize the electric bills. It turns out distribution costs can exceed the cost of the electricity. Same goes for gas. Distribution is a major part of the costs.

And when it comes to cooking with gas, I'd gladly pay the higher price. I really don't like electric cook tops.

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Kellemora
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Re: Debian Linux Mint

Post by Kellemora » 07 Aug 2019, 11:13

Higher Voltage to reduce the current makes electric more efficient.
Current usage is converted to watts for the purpose of billing.

P/V=I
VxI=P

100 watt lamp at 110 volts is 0.91 amps
100 watt lamp at 120 volts is 0.83 amps

110 volts times 0.91 amps is 100.1 watts
120 volts times 0.83 amps is 99.6 watts

100.1 minus 99.6 is a 0.5 watt difference

0.5 watt will add up over the course of a month.

Insignificant when talking about 1 light bulb, but what about your stove, furnace, washer/dryer, TV and all the other appliances in your home.

Consider the same scenario using a 1000 or 2000 watt appliance, and the difference becomes much greater.

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yogi
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Re: Debian Linux Mint

Post by yogi » 07 Aug 2019, 15:53

As the voltage changes so does the wattage consumption of a given tungsten filament light bulb. We agree there. The brightness of the bulb, the lumen output, is proportional to the wattage. Thus, when you change the voltage supplied to a light bulb, you also change it's brightness. Lower voltage means less light. My example referred to the cooling ability of an a/c motor, but the concept is identical. Less voltage means less watts which translates to less cooling or brightness. When the voltage drops, so does the wattage, along with the cost of operating the device. The price you are paying is not only in dollars. You are getting less work (watts) and less efficiency of the device with lower voltages.

That may not matter if the primary concern is cost.

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Kellemora
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Re: Debian Linux Mint

Post by Kellemora » 08 Aug 2019, 10:29

When the voltage drops, the amperage goes up.
True, a lower voltage causes a dimming of a light bulb.
But although we pay for electricity based on kwh usage, an electric meter is actually measuring joules.
It uses an ammeter (loop of wire around the power line) to measure current usage over time.
The voltage times the current is the wattage you are being charged for.
The lower the voltage, the higher the current, and current usage is what converts to the kwh you are billed for.

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yogi
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Re: Debian Linux Mint

Post by yogi » 08 Aug 2019, 13:36

Most of the watt meters I've seen (admittedly not a lot of them) have three coils. Two are wrapped around the line and one is spinning around over the other two. The in line coils are measuring the current while the spinning one measures the voltage. Thus it's easy enough to convert those two measurements to watts/hour.

My understanding is that watts, joules, horsepower, and BTU's are all measuring the same thing, i.e., work that can be done.

The lowering of the voltage and the corresponding increase in current only applies when the watts consumed remain constant. In the case of incandescent light bulbs the resistance of the filament changes with it's temperature. A cold filament would measure in the order of 10 ohms while that same wire resistance would increase to about 180 ohms when a 100 watt light is glowing. That change in resistance is what causes a change in current flow. Most other household appliances represent a constant resistance load. In those cases when the voltage drops so does the current and the watts.

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Kellemora
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Re: Debian Linux Mint

Post by Kellemora » 09 Aug 2019, 11:55

I don't know Yogi, you may be right, and it has been years since I worked in anything electric or electronic.

I do know this though, when I lived in Creve Coeur, after they moved me to the 130 volt tap on the transformer, my electric bill went down by at least 10% even though our average usage remained about the same. Which was easily compared to the previous years charts which appeared on our electric bills. And that was even after a few increases in the price of electric.

Even though we were on the 130 volt tap, our electric averaged around 122 to 126 volts.
When we were on the 120 volt tap, our electric averaged around 105 to 115 volts.
Excluding the 5:30 to 7:00 pm period when everyone was getting lower voltage. Probably due to cooking.

If you had the money, you could by a constant voltage controller, which is similar to a Variac in some ways.
Whole house models cost upwards of ten grand, while smaller units used to protect electronic equipment can be had for as low as around 500 bucks. Almost all of them are set to a fixed 120 volts, low priced models can fluctuate 3%, but the higher priced models are less than 1% fluctuation.
That old Post Glover line isolation transformer prevented spikes, but did not control the voltage. If input voltage was down, so was it's output voltage. Somehow there was a time factor involved so it buffered voltage spikes fairly well.

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yogi
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Re: Debian Linux Mint

Post by yogi » 09 Aug 2019, 14:29

No theory I could recite to you would change the facts. If you had lower electric bills with a higher voltage source, then that's the way it was. I always thought it took 100 watts to light up a bulb regardless of what is the combination of volts and amps.

The isolation transformers are a 1:1 transfer of AC. If I recall correctly the output is 180 degrees out of phase with the input but not much else changes. I can see how the source voltage would be tracked by the output, but the elimination of spikes is a little harder to understand. The secondary winding acts as an inductor in parallel with the load. As such it would suppress some spikes. I guess its effectiveness depends on the amplitude and duration of the spike. Most spikes would not be present for a long enough time to affect the output voltage, but I don't see how it could be totally eliminated. Yet it is. Go figure.

I can get a Sola line conditioner for the outlet that feeds my computer and pay under $100 for it. Of course, if I want to protect the NAS, Printer, and Monitor too I might have to pay $300 for a better one. LOL

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Kellemora
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Re: Debian Linux Mint

Post by Kellemora » 10 Aug 2019, 11:05

I think the impedance of the transformer coils is what eats up the smaller spikes.
Heck, most of my ham radio coax was coiled outside, at least 10 turns in a foot diameter ring to prevent some problems.
But I do not remember why we all did it. It was just a common practice, and my failed memory does not recall the reason.
I also had gas bottle line protectors on each coax as it came into the house, mostly for lightning protection.
Lightning still got into my shack though through an old abandoned rotor cable and damaged a lot of stuff.
I had this huge surge protector when I lived in the apartment, and I believe the name was something like Soladad. It only cost like 35 bucks, but could be used for up to 10 amps, which was more than all of my equipment added together. This was back before computers too by the way, so they could easily cost 100 to 300 dollars today.

Also, back then, we did not have the 12vdc to 110vac converters like we have today either.
We did have them, I had one in my car to run my 6-meter Benton Harbor Lunchbox.
But the way they were made back then, they HAD TO HAVE a load on them, or they would fry instantly.
Better keep your car motor running too, else they would zap your battery super fast.
Understandable I guess since the radios back then were all with tubes.

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yogi
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Re: Debian Linux Mint

Post by yogi » 10 Aug 2019, 15:55

Coiling the coax is an interesting practice. I can't think off the top of my head what would be affected by doing that. Good coax has shielding that keeps the rf inside the cable. Thus, in theory, no radiation escapes the coax and there is no interaction with the environment. RF likes to travel in straight lines, which means a coil of lead in wire would detune the antenna. Maybe. I don't know. I never did that, and you are the first to tell me about it.

I recall back in my ham radio days all the warnings about putting lightning arrestors on the antenna. Seems like a good idea, but I also recall a few stories of radio shacks that were obliterated by lightning even with arrestors in place. Lightning jumps from a cloud several thousands of feet off the ground, why would a glass bottle stop such a monster? LOL

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Kellemora
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Re: Debian Linux Mint

Post by Kellemora » 11 Aug 2019, 10:53

True, the shielding does keep the RF inside the cable.
BUT, it does not keep other unwanted RF fields from traveling on the outside of the coax.
Coiling the excess coax does NOT change the SWR unless you make the coil too small.
The primary benefit is two-fold, to block this unwanted RF on the outside of the cable, AND to create an inductance which can prevent or reduce static or electric charges from on the antenna into the shack.

Naturally, the Shield of the coax is always Grounded to an earth ground, but what about the part of the antenna that is not grounded. On a dipole, only one leg is grounded to an earth ground. On a vertical, only the radials are grounded to an earth ground.
This is the purpose of a Transi-Trap (aka gas bottle), RF will travel through the gas in the bottle, but not electric. The gas is a dielectric like an insulator, and inside the Transi-trap, the distance between the center RF conductor and the cabinet of the Transi-Trap is small, and the case is grounded. The distance through the gas to the other cathode is much greater, so electrical charges on the antenna will normally go to ground.

I think you just answered your own question about lightning. Lightning jumps to ground, or actually from a ground.
Our radio towers are grounded, and when lightning hits either the tower or antenna, it normally hits only the grounded portion of the antenna.

Remember my mentioning the fire that came off the ends of the elements of one of my beams, and the neighbors called the fire department a couple of times because of it?
We learned this phenomenon is called Saint Elmo's Fire, because the ends of the spars on sailing ships did the same thing.
An entire Beam or Yagi antenna is grounded. The only point that is not grounded is the small feed section, which is usually housed in a grounded cylinder. So it is very rare for a very large charge from a lightning strike to arc over to the ungrounded portion of a Beam or Yagi.
When speaking of vertical antenna's, even though the vertical portion is not usually grounded, the lightning will usually hit the grounded radials instead of the vertical portion of the antenna.

What does an electric charge do inside of a coaxial cable?
More often than not, because it is electric and not RF energy, it will be dissipated by the coaxial shield as it passes through the coax. In essence arcing from the inner conductor to the shield through the insulation.
If it does make it close to the shack, that coil of coax will more than likely dissipate the rest.
If not, then the gas bottle will stop the electric and if it is high enough voltage will arc from the inner wire over to the housing of the gas bottle's metal container, which is grounded.

Telephone wires also are wound into a spiral, this is why we call them "The Twisted Pair."
This spiral along the length of the wire prevents RF from using the phone lines to travel along.
RF only travels, as you pointed out, in a straight line (sorta), what it does is travel on the skin of the wire, not through the core of the wire.
It is for this reason we can make CAGE Dipoles. Instead of using a 6 inch diameter pipe, we can use 4, 6, or 8 wires spaced apart on a circular form. From the eye it looks like a long bird cage, but to RF it looks like a solid or hollow pipe.

At one time, the electric company tried using their electric wires to send RF signals. I think they were hoping to tap into the computer Internet connections. Since the electric uses the core of the wire, and RF uses the outer skin of the wire, it was a feasible idea, except for the way electric is distributed. Another wire from the high tension wires they planned on using runs down to a transformer to reduce the voltage sent into a house. RF is not going to go through a transformer, hi hi.
So they tried using another type of connection which was not physical. I forget the name of the method now, but it is more of a capacitance than an inductance. Similar to how a Beam or Yagi is fed from a coax.
But since nearly all high tension wires are connected in a grid, it blew that idea out of the water real fast.
Don't get me wrong here, because the really high high high tension wires that run from a power plant are being used to send RF signals, but not necessarily for communications purposes. They are used with a grid dip meter to locate exactly where a wire might be down, and/or arcing across a dirty insulator when it rains. Things like that.

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yogi
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Re: Debian Linux Mint

Post by yogi » 11 Aug 2019, 14:29

Some of the things you are talking about are things I never heard of. Or, if I did hear of them I know them by some other name. I can comment on twisted pairs for phone lines. They do that to prevent cross talk in the audio frequency range. That's not to say RF cannot ride on the wires. In fact there were certain telephone receivers which would receive AM radio broadcasts to the consternation of the telephone user. The phone company didn't feel it was their problem but would supply a bypass capacitor if you kissed the right a$$ at their service center. Now and days DSL is a desired RF (of a sorts) in some areas. LOL

I can make a vague association between the gas bottles of which you talk and rf bypass capacitors. And I am familiar with the fact that lightning frequently goes from the ground up, but it does come down from the clouds once in a while as well. And, of course, cloud to cloud lightning is very common. I guess it's possible for antennas to build up a static charge in which case a coiled lead-in wire might provide enough inductance to lessen any discharge effects. This is the same idea we talked about in isolation transformers. I don't see it being highly effective there either.

There is one story about St Elmo's fire I recall hearing in my amateur radio days. It seems lightning hit the antenna and the basement of the ham shack had this ball lightning bouncing around all over. The radio equipment was trashed as were a few other things in the house. No fire ensued, thank goodness.

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Kellemora
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Re: Debian Linux Mint

Post by Kellemora » 12 Aug 2019, 11:15

I've seen a few videos of ball lightning. A good reason to have the gutters on your house grounded, hi hi.

Normally, lightning hitting a tower won't harm the tower, perhaps a burn mark, but that's about it.
The reason my tower came tumbling down after a lighting strike was fairly self-evident.
It had a tubular framework instead of angle iron, and the weep hole at the bottom of one leg was clogged solid enough to prevent the water inside the leg from coming out.

I'm sure winter weather also stressed the metal and perhaps weakened an area that should have split open in the winter, but didn't. In any case, the lighting turned the water to steam and split one leg of a three legged tower in three sections of the tower. The guy wires kept it from falling over like a felled tree, but it collapsed as it leaned a little. It also looked like perhaps the force of the steam actually lifted the second section off the first which is what caused the bulk of the collapse.
Ironically, none of the antenna's were hurt. So I just bought a simple push-up pole to get everything back up and running again in only a couple days time. I was able to reuse all the guy wires to keep the push-pole straight and tight. The only problem is, you can't climb a push-pole. So I made the top two sections where I could lower them easily and work on tuning antenna's from the roof.

I used to have several little neon lights I used to place at certain intervals on my dipoles and on the top of the 10-meter vertical. On the dipoles, they had to be in exactly the right spots to light up. Basically where the sine wave crosses the wire. These were super low wattage neon lights, less than 1/4 watt if I recall. Wouldn't work with regular neon lamps.
Some guy made a fortune selling them inside a heat shrink tube to CB operators, hi hi.

Almost all radio and TV stations have a humongous glass bottle inside an enclosure on their coax, usually in a cabinet at the base of the tower. Of course what they are using is not really coax per say, it is more like rigid coax pipe, hi hi.

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yogi
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Re: Debian Linux Mint

Post by yogi » 12 Aug 2019, 16:47

I'm pretty sure RG58 wouldn't handle 50,000 watts of broadcast rf. :lol:

Putting neon bulbs on an antenna wire is an interesting idea. I'm trying to decide if your comment about the zero crossing point is factual. My first guess would be that the bulb would light at the peak of the envelope where the most voltage occurs. I also am wondering if that peak, or zero crossing point, moves along the wire as the broadcast frequency changes. Would it light at 7.250MHz but not at 7.255?

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Kellemora
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Re: Debian Linux Mint

Post by Kellemora » 13 Aug 2019, 14:06

You could be right Yogi, It could be at the peaks where the sine wave is farthest from the wire.
Basically it is the points along the dipole that have the highest RF radiation leaving the wire.

But it also works on the tips of verticals, and on the ends of tuned dipoles also.
Doesn't matter if it is the hot wire or the grounded wire either, it works on both sides of the center connection point.

That being said, I've had a few verticals that were in perfect tune, but the lamps would not light. Could be because the power level was too low, under 10 watts on some of my rigs, or because the antenna wasn't emitting from the end.

How I found the points on a dipole where the light was the brightest was by making a loose loop around the wire with the legs of the lamp. Using a fiberglass paint roller stick, I would slide the lamp until it lit, then slide it back and forth in an area looking for the brightest point, then I would climb up and tighten the legs of the lamp at that point, or put a drop of super glue to keep it there, or both.
I guess I should add I did this on the center of the frequency I was using. If moved to either end of the same band, the lamps may not light.
But then too, on one of my dipoles, I had three different frequencies I used often, so placed one lamp where it lit up brightest on each of those three frequencies. This way I could glance out the window and be sure the antenna stayed in tune.
Long runs of copper wire, held up only at the ends, tend to stretch a little bit each year. Especially if you are using heavy springs on the tie line to keep it taught. I didn't want to sound like I was on a droopy dipole, hi hi.

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yogi
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Re: Debian Linux Mint

Post by yogi » 13 Aug 2019, 19:40

You are a brave man to get close enough to a radiating antenna to move neon bulbs around and watch them glow. Very low power probably would be ok, but at some point you will expose yourself to burns from the RF. I use my clever phone on speaker because I don't want the antenna from it to be closer to my brain than it has to be. I think the neon bulb would glow even on antenna that was badly out of tune. Those standing waves have as much power as the radiated ones.

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Re: Debian Linux Mint

Post by Kellemora » 14 Aug 2019, 10:17

I used a fiberglass pole to move them around. Also, I'm usually only running 5 to 10 watts when tuning an antenna.

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Re: Debian Linux Mint

Post by yogi » 14 Aug 2019, 14:11

Daring and brave, and also smart. LOL

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